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Lemon King posted:The new $250 Tier was added. What? I don't get this. e: wait, i got it. Pay $250 to basically be pissed on.
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Jan 18, 2014 05:53
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That is a good rate compared to the going price in dallas.
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Jan 18, 2014 05:57
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Are you guys planning on implementing some public quest type stuff in Pantheon? For example, it would be cool is if it was used in the massive dungeons for some events. Imagine camping out with our group doing content and then an event starts spawning massive boss type mob maybe with some minions, etc, and then all the people in the dungeon at the time are placed into a public quest group and then try to defeat the encounter. Sort of like a mini raid event in which you are auto grouped together for a while. I also liked in Rift how the outposts could be attacked and taken over then it was up to you and the people there to drive them out. I always liked the "public quest" type content in games. What is your feeling on this type of content? Peechka fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Jan 18, 2014 |
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Jan 18, 2014 06:23
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Byolante posted:They want their QA cost to be zero so they are trying to get people to buy a spot as unpaid labor in the absolute worst bit of the gaming industry. It wont be zero, you can't really rely on the general public, they would need to have their own internal testers. But, I understand people do not like having companies who wish to make a profit utilise gamers as unpaid workers, or in this example pay extra for that guaranteed access. However, some people really enjoy being involved at that level, people who would otherwise not really have access to game development. If some want to pay to get guaranteed access to those kind of roles then power to them... assuming they do a half decent job. The problem with MMOs is it would take a ridiculously long time or be ridiculously expensive to test something with paid workers that would take alpha, closed beta and open beta testers the 2+ years of development time to iron out the bugs to get it to a playable state. As long as people are happy to do it then I don't have a problem. MMO type games which have had very restricted public testing have been terrible imo and have taken years to get to a decent place development-wise. You just can't afford or can't emulate thousands of concurrent testers. I think all gamers just want good quality games, a lot of great game concepts (like SWTOR) were turned into WoW in space because nobody wants to bank roll a niche market game that is ultra expensive to create. I think even fewer would be created if they did not have any help from public unpaid testers. At the end of the day, as long as testers are enjoying themselves playing the game I don't think it is exploitative.
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Jan 18, 2014 06:32
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iminers posted:What? I don't get this. It includes the previous tiers so you get 2 copies of the game, free first year sub plus $1 annual sub, more or less effective lifetime sub, plus the other 'stuff'. Not sure what their sub pricing will be but if it is anything close to standard it seems like a pretty good deal if you are going to be playing it for more than a year or so. The only reason you would choose that tier rather than the previous tier was if you wanted to get involved with the development stage of the game. The previous tiers include alpha or beta access if you just want to get in when it is more developed.
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Jan 18, 2014 06:40
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Peechka posted:Are you guys planning on implementing some public quest type stuff in Pantheon? I loved the concept of rifts in Rift and public quests in GW2 and WAR. However, in reality I found them to be terrible. Rifts: Was great... if people were in the zone, if not then you were constantly bent over, you quest hubs camped and you couldn't clear them yourself and the game was so linear it stuffed your progression. If they happen infrequently they are okay but I found it very disruptive and didn't really like their agro system, not sure how it worked but mobs would chase me all over the zone even though i was doing stuff all damage. It was also hard to measure contribution, I found an effective way to get first place in Rift by constantly spamming a do-nothing significant ability that had no cooldown and a fast cast time, it seems your contribution was based on how much you spammed poo poo rather than actually contributing anything of note. Public Quests: Another next gen feature I wanted to like, however, could never get to a balance where these were challenging, they were either ridiculously hard because not enough people showed (or even impossible) or they were ridiculously easy when too many people showed up. I found GW2s bot-haven events to be lackluster and disappointing overall. They all sounded great in theory but just couldn't get a robust system which was challenging, fun and rewarding.
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Jan 18, 2014 06:58
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iminers posted:What? I don't get this. Which sucks, because it's totally possible to do an oldschool mmo with new tech and MODERN interpretations of designs that were great for immersion back then. We're going to end up with a game that's frustrating because UX design is still a new thing for mmos. It's loving awesome that there is interest in a challenging, oldschool mmo, but the lovely user experience we had back then due to lack of tech and meager usability is going to be replicated as well. There are ways to design great accessibility without hand holding or killing the challenge. From what's been posted so far, it sounds like we're going to get all the same frustrations we back had then had due to the limitations on tech/time/money that were a part of EQ and VG. I love both, but there are MUCH better ways to modernize oldschool than what's been detailed so far. Out of the handful of UX designer mmo players that work in gaming, I'm probably like the only one who thinks this is possible. Everyone else probably believes the bullshit hand holding is the pinnacle of usability >_< sinewave fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Jan 18, 2014 |
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Jan 18, 2014 07:38
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Ceythos posted:Yea, we're big fans of that as well. Some of the fun of original Eq was trying to figure out which items to give which NPC's, as well as figuring out what to say to them in the first place. Having played games such as Zork, I never understood why MMOs where you need to type at NPCs were not smarter about recognizing what you are trying to tell them. Having to look up the exact text you need to advance a quest on the inevitable third party web site kind of kills immersion. I hope the NPCs in Pantheon are at least as smart as characters that ran on a Z80 30 years ago.
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Jan 18, 2014 07:45
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Eccles posted:Having played games such as Zork, I never understood why MMOs where you need to type at NPCs were not smarter about recognizing what you are trying to tell them. Having to look up the exact text you need to advance a quest on the inevitable third party web site kind of kills immersion. I hope the NPCs in Pantheon are at least as smart as characters that ran on a Z80 30 years ago. Are there many MMOs that you actually type things to an NPC? Most are point and click, I don't recall one where I actually type stuff to an npc outside of EQ. Having coded in MUD level games before, the vocabulary was as simplistic or as complex as the language/command parser. Most where very rigid and could only handle specific basic commands. Some were extremely complex which could understand commands within a sentence of gibberish. However, there are pros and cons with a complex parser. The smarter you make the more prone it is to misunderstand your instruction. It is not so bad if you do not really have many command line instructions or complexity of scope. Also, it would greatly increase processing power the more convoluted it is, that isn't too bad if it was a big part of the game communicating with NPCs but if it wasn't a big part of the game than a more efficient simple parser would be more efficient.
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Jan 18, 2014 08:05
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Zvim posted:Are there many MMOs that you actually type things to an NPC? Most are point and click, I don't recall one where I actually type stuff to an npc outside of EQ. We're still about 10 years from getting "ready player one".
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Jan 18, 2014 08:22
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I have an extremely important question for the developers of Pantheon. In fact, it is probably the most vital aspect of the game that you need to make a decision on. I assume you will have large, stupid races like ogres or trolls like EQ does. Will they scratch their asses in their idle animation?
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Jan 18, 2014 08:37
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Node posted:I have an extremely important question for the developers of Pantheon. In fact, it is probably the most vital aspect of the game that you need to make a decision on. this is a given. they had better knock you around at least as much as in dragons dogma however.
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Jan 18, 2014 09:09
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sinewave posted:this is a given. they had better knock you around at least as much as in dragons dogma however. I'm talking playable races.
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Jan 18, 2014 10:02
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Ceythos posted:Vanguard was a good game; flawed, but still good at its core. Pantheon of the Ancients was the best dungeon I've ever done. Everything about it was just so awesome, even the bugs. We made a ton of money selling the weapons out of there. My heart was broken when I came back to the game and found out was made max level content.
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Jan 18, 2014 15:44
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Peechka posted:Massive? He spent about 30 mill in Vanguard and most of it he said was wrapped up in the in-house engine they developed, and of course art assets. This time he is using unity engine. They didn't use an in house engine. They used Unreal 2.
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Jan 18, 2014 17:10
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Add me to the "rose-colored glasses"-bandwagon of people who loved the early-style MMOs like EQ1 and Vanguard, to an extent - the crafting / diplomacy systems were godawful and the game reeked of being half-finished, but the dungeons and the feel of adventuring were great. If I wasn't in such a financial ditch at the moment I'd probably throw something at this, but I'm eager to see the end result in any case. I hate the modern MMOs where the "world" is a linear pipe you go through, and non-raid content doesn't even require you to do anything except keep hitting one button and go through almost all combat unscathed, because people might quit if they actually -died-, the horror! I just wish it would have more imaginative races instead of the standard fantasy fare of elves / gnomes / goblins / orcs, but eh, can't have everything.
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Jan 18, 2014 17:28
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Zvim posted:Are there many MMOs that you actually type things to an NPC? Most are point and click, I don't recall one where I actually type stuff to an npc outside of EQ. Vanguard actually had the same type of system available to it, where you could type words at an NPC to progress a dialogue. It was hidden within the dialogue trees/nodes, but basically when you clicked on a speech node it was effectively saying a keyphrase like Eq1. We could have gone a lot further with it, but as you said, the more complex it gets, the more prone it is to misunderstanding. I'd like to see us evolve that a bit for Pantheon if possible though.
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Jan 18, 2014 18:25
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Node posted:I have an extremely important question for the developers of Pantheon. In fact, it is probably the most vital aspect of the game that you need to make a decision on. One of the big races will most likely have a scratch anim, perhaps not as its default, but at least as an optional one. Too many of us fondly remember our trolls and ogres in Eq1 not to have some nod to it. I'll have to be coy for the moment regarding our race roster for Pantheon since we'll be releasing more race info in the near future on our kickstarter site.
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Jan 18, 2014 18:28
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Byolante posted:They want their QA cost to be zero so they are trying to get people to buy a spot as unpaid labor in the absolute worst bit of the gaming industry. That's one way of looking at it, sure, but you also have a group of passionate fans that will happily pay to get early access and help find and report bugs. I don't think they feel like they are being exploited.
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Jan 18, 2014 18:39
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One thing I think a lot of older MMO fans are disillusioned with is the theme park world that most games inhabit. It doesn't matter what kind of heroic amazing deeds you do, as soon as the actors are done with their mock battles and epic struggles, the world just pops back to what it was, or is never even changed, you just watched a cut scene in a private reality that nobody else could even see. Are there any plans to explore a more malleable world that players themselves can affect meaningful change onto? Even if all you can do is push small parts of the world from 0 to 1 and back in a binary or trinary configuration, it adds a great deal of lasting enjoyment. I'm just so over the Disney experience of Sally the Innkeeper sobbing while telling me that her father was killed by werewolves and I should go retrieve his sword for her, then I come back and she thanks me and tosses the sword into a giant bin of them and waits for the next idiot to come along to give the same task. It feels like by now there should be more dynamic content in our games, and that NPCs should have more organic and evolving goals, needs, and ambitions. Loving Life Partner fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jan 18, 2014 |
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Jan 18, 2014 18:44
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Loving Life Partner posted:Are there any plans to explore a more malleable world that players themselves can affect meaningful change onto? Even if all you can do is push small parts of the world from 0 to 1 and back in a binary or trinary configuration, it adds a great deal of lasting enjoyment. Frankly, since it's pretty clear that this is advertising itself towards the fans of old EQ, I doubt it - you couldn't affect the world in EQ in any way, either, and it was an issue even then (a Finnish gaming magazine complained about that back in the day, if I remember correctly) Depending a bit on your definition of theme park, I'd say EQ was probably one of the early ones. Not to say you could affect the world much in, say, Ultima Online either, but at least you could plop buildings into the real gameworld, not into instanced "housing" areas. I'd be all for an MMO like Haven & Hearth or Wurm Online where you can actually cut down trees, shape the landscape, build massive towns etc. but with an actual budget / development resources, but it requires a different approach from the get-go.
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Jan 18, 2014 18:51
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Loving Life Partner posted:Are there any plans to explore a more malleable world that players themselves can affect meaningful change onto? Even if all you can do is push small parts of the world from 0 to 1 and back in a binary or trinary configuration, it adds a great deal of lasting enjoyment. This takes the form normally two ways. Instanced places where person A may have the town on fire and person B does not since he finished the quest. This makes it so people can't see each other until they exit the town like ESO. It is rather bad. The other way is global events that well, take too much design and effort for the pay outs. GW2 is doing some of these and limit when they can be done, potentially locking away content that people could otherwise do. This is also not a good option. There really isn't a good way to do this except for minor dynamic events like War or Rift and even those get boring.
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Jan 18, 2014 18:56
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Bashez posted:Pantheon of the Ancients was the best dungeon I've ever done. Everything about it was just so awesome, even the bugs. We made a ton of money selling the weapons out of there. My heart was broken when I came back to the game and found out was made max level content. Oh god yes, Pantheon of the Ancients was amazing. I guess I'm talking "prebuff" Pantheon. I loved that trial where an individual had to survive standing in fire in front of the loving devil for a certain amount of time to pass it. The rest of the group would basically be saying HEIL SATAN while we waited, because the loving dude looked like it. Sadly I didn't get the lore behind the place. Who were all the ancients giving each trial? Who were the boss mobs in the back room after you passed all the trials? Who was the holy looking dude that descended upon you when you beat the encounter? I still have the weapon from that place on my character, a paladin, even though it wasn't made for one, it still was the best dps weapon I had. Sol'Ran, twin of Jol'Drol or something. Jol'Drol was funny to link because it had like 100 times the dps of any weapon in the game, but it was just for a trial and you couldn't equip it. I ended up with a full set of armor from.. ah crap, what was it called. Those elven ruins in south Thestra, and the glowing shield you could choose as an award after collecting 500 or something motes from killing bosses, after completing the quest line. By then, the server population was so low, I could never find groups at Greystone and get an awesome knight weapon. Vanguard rules. Node fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jan 18, 2014 |
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Jan 18, 2014 23:02
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Node posted:Oh god yes, Pantheon of the Ancients was amazing. I guess I'm talking "prebuff" Pantheon. I loved that trial where an individual had to survive standing in fire in front of the loving devil for a certain amount of time to pass it. The rest of the group would basically be saying HEIL SATAN while we waited, because the loving dude looked like it. Are you talking about the level 30ish pantheon? I don't remember half the stuff you had to do in there I just remember spending days upon days trying to figure the stuff out and figure out if we were messing stuff up or if it was a bug.
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Jan 19, 2014 02:19
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Bashez posted:Are you talking about the level 30ish pantheon? I don't remember half the stuff you had to do in there I just remember spending days upon days trying to figure the stuff out and figure out if we were messing stuff up or if it was a bug. Yeah I am. I think the trial with Joh'Drohl was to move it across the zone within a limited amount of time. Another trial was an event that spawned a bunch of innocent people and you had to kill Bads that were trying to kill them. If you enough of the Goods died, you lost. Again, I really wish I knew the lore of that place. It was so drat cool. Did they just change the levels, or did they totally and completely change everything about it?
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Jan 19, 2014 02:26
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Ceythos posted:Vanguard actually had the same type of system available to it, where you could type words at an NPC to progress a dialogue. It was hidden within the dialogue trees/nodes, but basically when you clicked on a speech node it was effectively saying a keyphrase like Eq1. We could have gone a lot further with it, but as you said, the more complex it gets, the more prone it is to misunderstanding. I'd like to see us evolve that a bit for Pantheon if possible though. Ahh, I never played Vanguard. I wanted to try it but was committed to a couple of other MMOs at the time. I don't mind elements of MMOs which are harder to find and figure out, you can get these gems even after playing the game for some time. For GW2 I liked those jumping puzzles and in SWTOR finding those holocrons. Sometimes some simple things to code can create a lot of enjoyment.
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Jan 19, 2014 03:37
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Node posted:Yeah I am. I don't remember any names but I'm recalling stuff when you describe it. I remember spending a ton of time loving with some snake thing. There was just so much stuff happening in that place. I never got over 40 something so I never saw the new pantheon.
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Jan 19, 2014 03:42
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Loving Life Partner posted:One thing I think a lot of older MMO fans are disillusioned with is the theme park world that most games inhabit. SWG had a system where it didn't rely on repeating quest content, there were some quests but they were a pretty minor part of the game, the vast majority of the game play was to take missions which would spawn something random somewhere on a planet you had to go kill. But they also had just respawning mobs which cluttered the landscape. You basically just ran around and killed anything that moves, mostly wildlife. The game wasn't a great success. I think design-wise, the game was well ahead of it's time, but it wasn't executed very well overall. The problem with the concept of player driven environments is that it is difficult to make it balanced to cope with a huge variable of potential players interacting with them. If you make it really hard the content would be impossible for smaller groups of players, if it is too easy then larger groups of players would just decimate the content and things would be fairly boring. You can have NPCs generate randomly named NPCs to defeat and randomly place them somewhere for you to go find but randomly generated content will never have the feel or scope or complexity of specifically designed content and it would feel a lot more repetitive than existing MMO quest systems imo. You could probably create something a lot more robust but it would likely require a massive amount of development time if you put enough effort into it that it didn't feel bland and repetitive, and it might be hit or miss with the general public. That is the problem with next gen concepts, people who bankroll the development of large projects like MMOs are less inclined to take risks and people who might have the experience to pull it off might be loathed to put their name to a risky project that might bomb out.
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Jan 19, 2014 04:00
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Byolante posted:They want their QA cost to be zero so they are trying to get people to buy a spot as unpaid labor in the absolute worst bit of the gaming industry. Tweety posted:I am furious. I just spent two of MY limited play hours helping other people, and I am sick to death of wiping other people's spit off my face for it. Finding bugs? I don't see that as a problem, nor a burden. I'm a software developer, so duplicating and documenting bugs isn't a problem.
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Jan 19, 2014 04:16
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Huttan posted:The worst bit of the gaming industry is customer service. And the absolute best explanation was from Tweety. Who got no end of crap from every end of the system. And as screwed up as it sounds, this post of her's motivated me to become a guide and stay one for years. B-but the terrible community of whiny entitled babies started with WOW and its entitlement complex mechanics where you can afk to epics and and... Ceythos posted:Vanguard actually had the same type of system available to it, where you could type words at an NPC to progress a dialogue. It was hidden within the dialogue trees/nodes, but basically when you clicked on a speech node it was effectively saying a keyphrase like Eq1. We could have gone a lot further with it, but as you said, the more complex it gets, the more prone it is to misunderstanding. I'd like to see us evolve that a bit for Pantheon if possible though. A cool thing in riftseeker's torrent (low level solo/duo dungeon in Tursh) was that the password to get into the dungeon itself and through the various portals in it, had to be spoken by the player. And the way you learnt what to say was by watching a cultist walk up to the portal and say the password themselves.
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Jan 19, 2014 05:17
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I don't think anyone wants this game to flop, but I really wish for a "Plan B" to release the server binary (or the code  ) to the community in case things go belly up. To think, the worlds we could have built with the Vanguard code.  Obviously with SOE as publisher, it would never happen.edit: by built I mean sperged. cmdrk fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 05:36
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So both the remaining $10K tiers just sold tonight. Overall a good day!
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Jan 19, 2014 05:53
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megalodong posted:A cool thing in riftseeker's torrent (low level solo/duo dungeon in Tursh) was that the password to get into the dungeon itself and through the various portals in it, had to be spoken by the player. And the way you learnt what to say was by watching a cultist walk up to the portal and say the password themselves. I remember two things about that dungeon. There was an actual "dungeon" area with undead and some kind of boss that would spawn in some smallish throne room. Then there was a portal that took me outside to another dimension. It looked humongous, and we were too low level to explore it. What was in that place? Vanguard has so many dungeons that we know so little about. It's so cool. Peechka posted:So both the remaining $10K tiers just sold tonight. Overall a good day! I'm jealous two times over. I wish I had that kind of money to pledge, and I wish I could enjoy the rewards of that pledge. Congrats again Brad and Ceythos. The donations aren't slowing down. It certainly didn't reach its goal in one day like a lot of other kickstarters, but I think (sorry to pick on you guys again) since this kickstarter wasn't quite hyped up like it should have been, it'll reach it's goal. I definitely am eager to see the stretch goal redesign though. Node fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 05:58
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Thanks again everyone, it's been a huge evening for us. I'll admit I was a bit nervous that we didn't see a huge jump day one like any other game projects do, but we're still trending really strong. It's...nerve-wracking and fun at the same time 
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Jan 19, 2014 06:09
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megalodong posted:B-but the terrible community of whiny entitled babies started with WOW and its entitlement complex mechanics where you can afk to epics and and... Rift Seeker's was an awesome dungeon, period, imo. The original cue of watching the cultist was a really good subtle (but strong) design touch. We're going to try to preserve having big dungeons like that early on in Pantheon as well.
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Jan 19, 2014 06:11
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I miss old school EQ ogres, they were adorable
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Jan 19, 2014 06:14
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Node posted:I remember two things about that dungeon. There was an actual "dungeon" area with undead and some kind of boss that would spawn in some smallish throne room. Then there was a portal that took me outside to another dimension. It looked humongous, and we were too low level to explore it. What was in that place? In Rift Seeker's there were 3 portals to different areas. The Undead section was to a vault where the Cartheons were amassing their strength (and corrupting some of the brownies in the process). Cartheons were a race from another continent ruled by a child-lich, Sartok - they were bent on finding great artifacts to...well, I should probably stop there in case the current Vanguard team ends up revealing the rest There's another portal that takes you to a place on Kojan, the Oriental-inspired continent. The Ra'jin, corrupt disciples, were up to no good in that area. The final portal took you to Q'urxa (I may have the spelling wrong, it's been a bit, sorry) an extra-dimensional place full of horrors and fiends (also the home world for the furry race, the Kurashasa). And that's all at level 10!
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Jan 19, 2014 06:17
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Huttan posted:The worst bit of the gaming industry is customer service. And the absolute best explanation was from Tweety. Who got no end of crap from every end of the system. And as screwed up as it sounds, this post of her's motivated me to become a guide and stay one for years. Not sure why that person bothered to be a guide. I was a guide in EQ and only left because I had moved to beta test WoW. Towards the end of my EQ days I found guiding to be more fun than playing. I think it helps if you have a great server GM. They used to rotate servers but the one I spent the majority of my guide-time with was awesome and he changed things up so guiding wasn't a drag. Was funny when he changed himself into a Spectre and ran along the beach of the Oasis. Didn't kill anyone, was just a bit of fun. I did get a number of messages about my rezzing, I used to summon people's bodies who were lost at sea (bug or no bug and before necros could do it), I used to clear some plane entrances where the mobs were bugged and wouldn't go back to their spawn location, wasn't meant to do that either and VI were a bit anal about doing stuff which goes a long way to preventing players rage quitting in frustration. There is a lot of minor stuff you can do for people who end up being happy customers and stick around, the GM rez was worse than best cleric rez, at the time I was a guide, so anyone who was hanging out for a GM rez had no real friends of note. Life got a lot easier when necros could summmon corpses and clerics got very good res spells, most of the higher end players tended to do their own recovery, unless it was physically impossible. Rarely ever god petitions from high-end guilds unless something was borked well beyond my ability to fix. I think if you are not a people person in general you should steer clear of any form of role helping people out. Zvim fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 06:18
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Ceythos posted:In Rift Seeker's there were 3 portals to different areas. You're my hero. Do you have the time to explain the Pantheon of the Ancients, the version when it was released? What it was, why we went there, what were the trials, who gave them and why, who were the bosses in the back (that amphitheater place) and who that saintly looking God that descended upon you was, after you beat the boss/es? It was one of my fondest memories of the game and I don't even remember what it was about. In fact, I'd say you almost obligated to explain it, because it has Pantheon in the name!
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Jan 19, 2014 06:41
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Node posted:You're my hero. Do you have the time to explain the Pantheon of the Ancients, the version when it was released? What it was, why we went there, what were the trials, who gave them and why, who were the bosses in the back (that amphitheater place) and who that saintly looking God that descended upon you was, after you beat the boss/es? Truth be told, I don't remember finding an over-arching story with the original trials and that. The guy at the end though was Alurad, if I remember correctly - he's sort of the patron god of good, in the absence of Moraj (who died while fighting Haelifur, the Father of Dragons). I think one of the reasons they re-did the Pantheon of the Ancients was to give it a more coherent story. Now you assist some fallen Ancients (the architects of the Pantheon's halls) and the avatars of the gods. They sealed their vaults because horrific creatures were running amok there; they've now tasked adventurers with passing their trials to make sure they're strong enough to deal with the horrors. There's a bit more to it than that, but that'd be spoiler-y, and it's possible the current Vanguard team may explore that part of the plot soooo...I can't really say more than that for the time being.
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Jan 19, 2014 07:00
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