|
Niwrad posted:It's a reality show with people playing to the cameras and being as extreme as they can. Oh yeah, I don't think all youth football programs are anything like that (heck, I've known plenty of kids who play football and at least a handful of people who have coached youth teams, so I know it's not). But nonetheless, I stand by my reaction to those clips, even if they're the worst they found in their whole time filming.
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 08:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 13:26 |
|
|
Niwrad posted:I don't know if it is fair though. You had a voter say he left names off so he didn't have to sit through a long ceremony. If you're pulling ballots because you don't like what they do with it, there should be a lot of others who lose theirs too. I didn't say it was fair, I said it was appropriate. And I didn't defend the actions of other voters.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 08:42
|
|
|
OrangeKing posted:Oh yeah, I don't think all youth football programs are anything like that (heck, I've known plenty of kids who play football and at least a handful of people who have coached youth teams, so I know it's not). But nonetheless, I stand by my reaction to those clips, even if they're the worst they found in their whole time filming. I think it's far more likely the whole thing is scripted, just like almost every other 'reality' show. Still, it's sick that people want to see a scripted 'reality' show about kids trying to kill each other and adults screaming at kids to try to kill other kids.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 14:01
|
|
|
toadee posted:I think it's far more likely the whole thing is scripted, just like almost every other 'reality' show. Still, it's sick that people want to see a scripted 'reality' show about kids trying to kill each other and adults screaming at kids to try to kill other kids. People like to feel outraged. Its why they script 'reality' shows to begin with, so that people can hear other people say outrageous things and feel righteously indignant. They aren't catering to the very few people who think screaming at a 9yr old to rip off a kids head is appropriate behavior, they're catering to the people who think its terrible.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 14:58
|
|
|
I had a middle school basketball coach who tried to cultivate "toughness" in us by having us diving on the ground for loose balls all the time and running super long suicides. I have no doubt that if that guy got let onto on a football field he would have eighth graders ramming headfirst into each other. There really are a lot of lovely coaches in the world. I watched that debate Malcolm Gladwell did with some former football players where he argued for banning the sport. The pro-football side just talked about how much the sport taught them about discipline and hard work and stuff. There are plenty of coaches who think the violence is the whole point and it is the road to self improvement. And back to the student athlete topic, the fair thinking would be this: participating in D1 sports requires a huge amount of time and effort. So, what we are going to do for athletes is put them on a 6 year college plan, with 4 years of athletic eligibility. The 4 years you are playing football, practicing, lifting weights, watching tape, traveling, and making us money, you are on the hook for two classes a semester. At the end of that fourth year, assuming you don't get drafted, you now have two years of four classes a semester, or whatever the norm is. In this system, a full ride scholarship means all 6 years are covered. I personally believe this will never happen because the NCAA is a sham, but it's the best outcome I can come up with. Actually, I imagine most of the athletes will immediately drop out after the athletics portion ends. I dunno.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 15:43
|
|
|
I'm well aware that reality TV is heavily scripted but I don't think they're doing some Stan Winston poo poo to fake a bunch of 8 year olds doing an Oklahoma drill
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 15:51
|
|
|
The B_36 posted:People like to feel outraged. Its why they script 'reality' shows to begin with, so that people can hear other people say outrageous things and feel righteously indignant. They aren't catering to the very few people who think screaming at a 9yr old to rip off a kids head is appropriate behavior, they're catering to the people who think its terrible. They do cut in a way that brings out the maximum amount "controversy' for lack of a better word, but no they don't try to cater to that group, as its not sustainable and could result in horrible backlash.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 16:00
|
|
|
OTL does a very long article about something called 'Heads Up Football' that is now being taught in youth leagues and sponsored by the NFL. It seems like it's another attempt by the NFL to calm parental concerns about football safety, but in reality it sounds like a method of tackling that isn't going to work. http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/10276129/popular-nfl-backed-heads-tackling-method-questioned-former-players
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 17:03
|
|
|
while the coaches behavior is probably played up, I doubt the eight year olds slamming their heads into each other is faked.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 21:29
|
|
|
Joe Posnanski did a pretty scathing takedown of the 60 Minutes report on the A-Rod/Biogenesis stuff: http://joeposnanski.com/joeblogs/the-60-minutes-report/
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2014 20:30
|
|
|
Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:Joe Posnanski did a pretty scathing takedown of the 60 Minutes report on the A-Rod/Biogenesis stuff: Wow. Crossposting this to the related thread. Awesome find.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2014 02:42
|
|
|
TSN started a series about homophobia in sports today. This is worth a look: e: Working link: http://www.tsn.ca/videohub/?collection=72&show=274129 Vertical Lime fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jan 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 01:25
|
|
|
grantland.com maybe just killed someone http://www.shakesville.com/2014/01/careless-cruel-and-unaccountable.html
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 05:25
|
|
|
the talent deficit posted:grantland.com maybe just killed someone I dunno how responsible I hold the writer for Dr. V's death since he was doing his due diligence in examining Vanderbilt's credentials (which were entirely fake). He probably didn't need to out her as trans and if that resulted in her committing suicide that's a tragedy but I'm sure he was doing "good journalism" in his mind, I guess? She committed suicide before the article went to print so who knows
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 05:55
|
|
|
Declan MacManus posted:I dunno how responsible I hold the writer for Dr. V's death since he was doing his due diligence in examining Vanderbilt's credentials (which were entirely fake). He probably didn't need to out her as trans and if that resulted in her committing suicide that's a tragedy but I'm sure he was doing "good journalism" in his mind, I guess? She committed suicide before the article went to print so who knows What's lovely is that it's treated as a big twist, then immediately uses the wrong pronouns, goes around outing her to clients and co-workers, digging up quotes from people who hated her, and then treats her suicide like it was completely unconnected with him, golly gee gosh this is sad but I guess it just had to happen I don't think this is even close to 'good journalism,' even in some kind of weird abstract where actions are unconnected to events. It's just spooky boogeyman nonsense that handled a delicate subject incredibly clumsily and took more quotes from people spewing hate speech than anything else
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 15:49
|
|
|
i don't think it's possible to assign blame for something as complex as suicide but the author of that piece harasses and humiliates the subject in the pursuit of a total non-story. if the club inventor hadn't been transgender there's no way this is a story and it probably gets dropped soon after he finds out the credentials are inflated. it's also absolutely sickening that it's framed as an eulogy
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 17:22
|
|
|
It certainly aspires to transcend sports and just falls flat on its face
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 17:45
|
|
|
the talent deficit posted:i don't think it's possible to assign blame for something as complex as suicide but the author of that piece harasses and humiliates the subject in the pursuit of a total non-story. if the club inventor hadn't been transgender there's no way this is a story and it probably gets dropped soon after he finds out the credentials are inflated. it's also absolutely sickening that it's framed as an eulogy He had begun the story months before he discovered she was trans, so ... it was a story?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 00:17
|
|
|
He seems like a huge douche on his twitter too.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 06:57
|
|
|
IMB posted:He had begun the story months before he discovered she was trans, so ... it was a story? I agree that the story was interesting enough on its own. Outing her as trans was completely unnecessary and added little to the story, other than "shock" value for people who are still shocked that trans individuals exist.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 07:17
|
|
|
IMB posted:He had begun the story months before he discovered she was trans, so ... it was a story? sure but the story he started researching was 'eccentric genius invents crazy new putter'. it turned out only the eccentric part was really true so he instead wrote a piece that outed a woman as trans because it was the only part of the story anyone was going to care about. 'someone makes outrageous unsupported claims about their weird putter' probably doesn't get published anywhere, let alone grantland. violating someone's request for discretion and privacy because you don't want your story to evaporate is terrible enough, pretending like you are performing a public service by going forward is reprehensible
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 07:19
|
|
|
"I tried out this crazy putter made by an eccentric scientist and when I went to do the background check for the story turns out this lady was coordinating car rentals but hey it really works so maybe genius can come from unexpected places" boom there's your copy without outing someone
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 07:47
|
|
|
the talent deficit posted:sure but the story he started researching was 'eccentric genius invents crazy new putter'. it turned out only the eccentric part was really true so he instead wrote a piece that outed a woman as trans because it was the only part of the story anyone was going to care about. 'someone makes outrageous unsupported claims about their weird putter' probably doesn't get published anywhere, let alone grantland. violating someone's request for discretion and privacy because you don't want your story to evaporate is terrible enough, pretending like you are performing a public service by going forward is reprehensible Yep. And the writer is trying to make himself look like the victim after the backlash. I don't get mad on the internet about much, but this whole thing is disgusting. Really, gently caress the writer and whoever at Grantland green lighted it for page views.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 07:47
|
|
|
I guess my only problem (and it's a big one) is with the way it was written. As far as the research, he did the right thing in looking up her background. Focusing on the trans part, especially post mortem, is just gruesome.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 17:20
|
|
|
the talent deficit posted:grantland.com maybe just killed someone This article was certainly done in a rather tasteless fashion and there are many things about it that should've been done differently but this blogger is delusional if she thinks someone is supposed to continue to focus solely on the science and not the scientist even after discovering the scientist is full of poo poo. He made that assurance when Dr. V was offering him the implied assurance that she was legitimate. When he discovers that she's been misleading him, I don't think he's responsible to hold up his initial promise any further as it was given under false pretenses. I don't think her being trans is irrelevant though. There's an established pattern of withholding information there and it's arguable that this fact could've been the root of it. The error is in creating a piece that uses that fact as a Shymalan-like twist as opposed to using it as a potential outlet to give this clearly troubled individual some relief. A good writer would be trying to understand her but, instead, he was trying to "catch" her. This is an interesting story and I wish it would've ended up in the hands of Wright Thompson instead of this guy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 18:30
|
|
|
sportsgenius86 posted:I don't think her being trans is irrelevant though. There's an established pattern of withholding information there and it's arguable that this fact could've been the root of it. I think this is exactly the point that people have a problem with, though (in addition to the terrible "chill up my spine" language). Personally, I find the article's drawing of a connection between (1) a person wanting to keep that element of their life private with (2) that person's engaging in a pattern of deception to be shockingly obtuse about complicated issues of gender identity.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 19:49
|
|
|
sportsgenius86 posted:This article was certainly done in a rather tasteless fashion and there are many things about it that should've been done differently but this blogger is delusional if she thinks someone is supposed to continue to focus solely on the science and not the scientist even after discovering the scientist is full of poo poo. Are you seriously comparing not disclosing being trans with lying about having a degree from MIT and lying about working for the military? That being trans is the "root" for this person trying to scam her investors by lying about her credentials? Not to mention that any argument about the necessity of disclosing her trans status becomes moot the second this writer thought it was appropriate to not only out her to investors, to not only record their reaction to the outing, but to then also express surprise that they didn't think it was a big deal.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 19:50
|
|
|
Yes sportsgenius all people who wish to keep their sexuality private are huge lying liars and should be sent to Russia for reprogramming.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 20:26
|
|
|
As an aside - Gary McCord's part in this story is pretty drat weird. He claims to have verified her identity with "several four-star generals" and Dan Quayle? Okay, then.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 20:29
|
|
|
OrangeKing posted:As an aside - Gary McCord's part in this story is pretty drat weird. He claims to have verified her identity with "several four-star generals" and Dan Quayle? Okay, then. Yeah that part stood out to me too, what the hell Gary?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 20:34
|
|
|
I'm not saying that it "is" the root cause or that not disclosing it is equal to her resume transgressions, what I'm saying is that once he finds out, it's kind of his job to explore if it could be related. Part of understanding the story is understanding the person it is about. He didn't take the time to do that. My point here was that exploring it is not really a no-no in my mind, however the route he chose to use to do so was.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 20:35
|
|
|
sportsgenius86 posted:I'm not saying that it "is" the root cause or that not disclosing it is equal to her resume transgressions, what I'm saying is that once he finds out, it's kind of his job to explore if it could be related. Oh, bullshit. Even leaving aside how bigoted it is to "explore" if they are related, the article doesn't even do that: Hannan pretty much implies that it is without anything to back it up. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Jan 19, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 20:40
|
|
|
joepinetree posted:Oh, bullshit. Even leaving aside how bigoted it is to "explore" if they are related, doesn't even do that: Hannan pretty much implies that it is without anything to back it up. And that's totally wrong of him to do. Doing the research and documenting all of the research in the final product are two different things. He can look into something for a better understanding of the whole story without including every bit of it in the article. It's extremely likely they're unrelated but nobody can know that without looking into it. The difference here is that any reasonable person, upon finding no connection, would omit the information instead of outing the individual to others in an attempt to create such evidence out of thin air.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 20:46
|
|
|
sportsgenius86 posted:And that's totally wrong of him to do. How the gently caress does someone "look into" whether being trans led someone to lie about her credentials to investors? At least in a way that isn't ripe with traditional transphobia or cheap psychologizing?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 20:52
|
|
|
The author outed Dr. V to people who didn't know, he can go gently caress himself just for that. I've seen people saying stuff like "Well she tried to kill herself before so clearly she was unstable." That seems like a reason to not push the transgender angle to me. Or, you know, put yourself in a position of outing her. leokitty fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jan 19, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 21:45
|
|
|
Yeah outing yourself is a difficult and deeply personal thing, trying to do it for someone is scummy as hell.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 21:50
|
|
|
ESPN's statement:quote:"We understand and appreciate the wide range of thoughtful reaction this story has generated and to the family and friends of Essay Anne Vanderbilt, we express our deepest condolences. We will use the constructive feedback to continue our ongoing dialogue on these important and sensitive topics. Ours is a company that values the LGBT community internally and in our storytelling, and we will all learn from this."
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 21:58
|
|
|
I don't think Hannan handled the story very sensitively - he clearly sensationalizes the transgender aspect, and the part about his conversation with the risk manager is especially lovely. But I think it was absolutely fair of him to probe whether the claims about Dr. V's credentials were true or not. Once they turned out not to be, I think reporting that was part of his job. The thing I can't decide is whether he could have written the story and established that she was lying about her credentials without outing her. That part I'm not sure about - would the story make sense (or be persuasive) if he basically just said "I couldn't verify any of the claims about her past?" I've been thinking about it since I read the story and I can't decide.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2014 00:25
|
|
|
MaximumBob posted:But I think it was absolutely fair of him to probe whether the claims about Dr. V's credentials were true or not. Once they turned out not to be, I think reporting that was part of his job. Absolutely! There is a ton of snake-oil horseshit in sports, all the way up to the top professionals. This could have been a valuable and interesting article without the other crap. quote:The thing I can't decide is whether he could have written the story and established that she was lying about her credentials without outing her. That part I'm not sure about - would the story make sense (or be persuasive) if he basically just said "I couldn't verify any of the claims about her past?" I've been thinking about it since I read the story and I can't decide. If he had to out her to establish her academic/professional deceit, at the very least, he could have mentioned it only to establish that she was using a different name when such and such occurred. Like, "Acme University has no record of her enrollment, and at the time, she lived in [city 2000 miles away from Acme] under the name * prior to her gender reassignment." That's it, nothing more because it's not relevant to the story. He would still have committed the shithead act of outing her, but he at least couldn't be accused of sensationalizing it or acting like finding out she was trans-gender was the same as finding out she was a loving lizard alien. He wouldn't have done the same if she was a lesbian whether she was out or not. He outed himself as someone who is mind-bogglingly ignorant of the issue.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2014 00:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 13:26 |
|
|
Mr. Funny Pants posted:If he had to out her to establish her academic/professional deceit, at the very least, he could have mentioned it only to establish that she was using a different name when such and such occurred. Like, "Acme University has no record of her enrollment, and at the time, she lived in [city 2000 miles away from Acme] under the name * prior to her gender reassignment." That's it, nothing more because it's not relevant to the story. You know, thinking a little more about it, I think he probably could have just written the article and said "I found that prior to 2003 she was living as another name, working as an auto mechanic" and left off that she wasn't living as a woman. If someone with Yar had called bullshit publicly he could have revealed everything he knew at that point, but he probably could have written a compelling story without doing so.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2014 00:48
|
|