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ManSeriesBrofist posted:I'd say honestly that you should at least watch SEED and Destiny. They have some of the most love it or hate it reactions in the series and honestly, while AGE is just bland, it isn't bad. SEED and Destiny however are seen by some as Gundam at the absolute worst or best and you need to form your own opinion on it. I watched all of SEED and the first 20 or so episodes of Destiny before I got bored and just kind of forgot to watch the next episode despite downloading nearly 10 more. I got bored of AGE after only 4 episodes or something to the point that I even forgot to download the newest episodes by that point. I tried a few more here and there, the one where Titus was destroyed (I ended up just skipping to the fight because it was so dull), the finale of gen 2 and the first couple of episodes of gen 3. The first two episodes of generation 3 are the only ones I can say I saw that I genuinely liked, because it felt like an entirely different show. You had Flit driving around in a tank as a crazy grandpa giving Kio the Gundam and him treating it like a game and just happy to blow poo poo away. I watched a few more episodes of gen 3 but quit as soon as Lu showed up. Her character was so saccharine sweet that I almost vomited and knew I wouldn't be able to stand a second more of her. I think I watched about 10 episodes in total and only two of them were good. Destiny was at least decent for the first 12 or so episodes. It might not be the fairest way to judge the shows but it's the only way I'm going to do it regardless, and by it's standard I think AGE came out far worse than Destiny. I'm inclined to take ImpAtom's word on it being the worst though as well, because everything he's said about the way it ends and the garbled messages it gives off sounds loving awful frankly. And I say all this as one of the few posters here (possibly the only one) who was cautioning people to give the show a chance when it was announced, saying that it's artstyle and more kid friendly aspects reminded me of Crossbone Gundam and that it could actually be good. It wasn't. At least things worked out when I said somewhat the same things about Build Fighters though, cause that show is amazingly fun so far. 3 posted:0083 was just this but with mobile suits, which is really all one can ask of that show. I'd say that that's Macross Plus really, but Stardust Memories is a good backup for it. tsob fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 03:36
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tsob posted:I watched all of SEED and the first 20 or so episodes of Destiny before I got bored and just kind of forgot to watch the next episode despite downloading nearly 10 more. I got bored of AGE after only 4 episodes or something to the point that I even forgot to download the newest episodes by that point. I tried a few more here and there, the one where Titus was destroyed (I ended up just skipping to the fight because it was so dull), the finale of gen 2 and the first couple of episodes of gen 3. The first two episodes of generation 3 are the only ones I can say I saw that I genuinely liked, because it felt like an entirely different show. You had Flit driving around in a tank as a crazy grandpa giving Kio the Gundam and him treating it like a game and just happy to blow poo poo away. I watched a few more episodes of gen 3 but quit as soon as Lu showed up. Her character was so saccharine sweet that I almost vomited and knew I wouldn't be able to stand a second more of her. I think I watched about 10 episodes in total and only two of them were good. Destiny was at least decent for the first 12 or so episodes. It might not be the fairest way to judge the shows but it's the only way I'm going to do it regardless, and by it's standard I think AGE came out far worse than Destiny. I'm inclined to take ImpAtom's word on it being the worst though as well, because everything he's said about the way it ends and the garbled messages it gives off sounds loving awful frankly. I honestly can't hate AGE as much as I do SEED, but I completely see why people do. Age in every concept wasn't a good show, but I really didn't expect much from it when it first was being shown. That and as I said, I'm not going to sit here and say it was great, but I did enjoy Asemu's arc and his character in general so there's that. I'm one of those guys that looked at a lot of the half assed concepts and ideas presented in the Cosmic Era and saw what could have been Gundam using a remake of the original to jump straight into uncharted territory such as genetics, natural evolution vs enhanced evolution and such. Pretty much in my mind there's stuff in the Cosmic Era that could be Deus Ex with gundams and I'm all aboard that god drat train. Instead what we got was wasted potential and a sequel that pretty much took every ok thing I can give about the original and ran it into the loving ground. Age was inoffensive and just ok because I didn't have a lot going in. SEED and Destiny had so much potential just in setting alone that wasn't even utilized properly until Stargazer, and even then Stargazer could have been a lot better, but was held back by its format. Also pretty much all of original Astray. Astray was just dumb fun, and I'm still crushed at the lack of Alien power loader armor for my MG Red Frame.
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Jan 26, 2014 03:53
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I always find it funny when people rave about how much potential CE has personally. Yea, you could make a cool series out of it focused on genetics and transhumanism, but it'd basically just be 0079 with a different point of conflict at the end of the day. Personally I think AGE had potential to be more interesting for at least two reasons. First being Flit's arc is basically about him being hailed as a savior and, in his own eyes failing to live up to that so that he becomes an embittered man who hates his son and grandson's idealism. And secondly because I think the idea of a generational story, where you see a conflict through different perspectives and not only get different views on it and the enemies involved but could potentially even have different types of conflict involved in each generation. I think AGE actually had a lot of potential and while the actual show we got was god awful dreck I don't like seeing it dismissed as being without any merit, especially in favor of SEED when SEED is basically a re-skinned 0079 just using a different point of contention.
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Jan 26, 2014 04:01
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tsob posted:I always find it funny when people rave about how much potential CE has personally. Yea, you could make a cool series out of it focused on genetics and transhumanism, but it'd basically just be 0079 with a different point of conflict at the end of the day. Personally I think AGE had potential to be more interesting for at least two reasons. First being Flit's arc is basically about him being hailed as a savior and, in his own eyes failing to live up to that so that he becomes an embittered man who hates his son and grandson's idealism. And secondly because I think the idea of a generational story, where you see a conflict through different perspectives and not only get different views on it and the enemies involved but could potentially even have different types of conflict involved in each generation. I think AGE actually had a lot of potential and while the actual show we got was god awful dreck I don't like seeing it dismissed as being without any merit, especially in favor of SEED when SEED is basically a re-skinned 0079 just using a different point of contention. Yeah I'll agree there. The generational differences thing was wasted potential. I'm not going to sit here and say that SEED or Destiny is better than Age and honestly they both have their "what could have beens". Maybe I'll just get lucky and the next major series we get after the Origin and whatever the hell G-Reco is will finally make my dreams come true and be terrestrial defense against monstrous aliens vs Gundams. A boy can dream.
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Jan 26, 2014 04:07
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:I honestly can't hate AGE as much as I do SEED, but I completely see why people do. Age in every concept wasn't a good show, but I really didn't expect much from it when it first was being shown. That and as I said, I'm not going to sit here and say it was great, but I did enjoy Asemu's arc and his character in general so there's that. The thing is that AGE wastes an incredibly interesting concept too. The idea of following not a single character but an entire era of war could have been used for some remarkably interesting plots. Flit alone is a great example of that in what they almost do with him. Following what amounts to an idealistic Gundam youth who suffers immense tragedy and is embittered and lost to it is something no other Gundam series could do in the same way. Following Flit from his youth to his adulthood where he is basically any given Gundam villain is a really really interesting idea. Likewise Asemu is an insanely interesting idea. An Oldtype pilot in a world increasingly dominated by Newtypes. Gundam X kind of waved at this but it never really did much with it, especially since Newtypes were dying out. Following the story of someone who is explicitly not a Newtype and what their role would be in a world of Newtypes is something Gundam refuses to touch but would be insanely interesting if they did. Kio Asuno even could be interesting if they emphasized the "raised by crazy Grandpa Flit as a child soldier" aspect and emphasize what a hosed up thing that is and how badly it is for Kio to approach war like a video game. He probably wouldn't be the strongest character on his own but as a point of contention between Flit and Asemu who grew to be his own distinct character? Man, that poo poo would be great and Gundam as gently caress. And another thing AGE touched on but never embraced? Religious war. That's a really big point of conflict between humans which Gundam rarely touched upon (for obvious reasons) but the Vagans seemed to be setting up for. Having a group of people who are not evil, not cruel, but wholeheartedly believe they are doing something for irrational but perfectly human reasons. Someone like Zeheart would be infinitely more interesting if they were a true believer in what amounts to a religion and forced to confront the conflict between what they were taught and how the 'church' rules, as opposed to AGE canon where he finds out about the conflict and decides KILL ALL HUMANS WOO. I think AGE pisses me off so much largely because it would be remarkably easy to rewrite. Even easier than SEED. You could make AGE something good, if not great, with so little effort that AGE's complete ineptitude at every bit of storytelling is all the more offensive to me even when you discount the misogyny or stupidity. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 04:09
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All excellent points made. I'd have definitely watched that show you described. Honestly I think at this point Gundam really need to come out swinging with whatever is next. I'd love them to apply giant robots to another genre of sci-fi other than just opposing side war. I know Japan would probably never do that, but a man can hope. Either that and just legitimately pull the trigger and introduce aliens into a full length Gundam series. As I said terrestrial defense ala Gunbuster would be really need to have in Gundam, or maybe just make some bastard child of 08th MS Team and for lack of a better show MuvLuv where it's incredibly focused on one squad going through and having to survive the horrors of a swarm like enemy that just rains down upon the earth.
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Jan 26, 2014 04:16
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:All excellent points made. I'd have definitely watched that show you described. Honestly I think at this point Gundam really need to come out swinging with whatever is next. I'd love them to apply giant robots to another genre of sci-fi other than just opposing side war. I know Japan would probably never do that, but a man can hope. Either that and just legitimately pull the trigger and introduce aliens into a full length Gundam series. As I said terrestrial defense ala Gunbuster would be really need to have in Gundam, or maybe just make some bastard child of 08th MS Team and for lack of a better show MuvLuv where it's incredibly focused on one squad going through and having to survive the horrors of a swarm like enemy that just rains down upon the earth. The problem with this is that Gundam has pretty much developed into a genre that consists of "exploring the nature and morality of human conflict using giant robots with a particular design theme as a medium". There's an argument to be made that if you're going to have a Robots vs Aliens anime, it's not really Gundam anymore because it's missing the two-sided human element so why bother making it a Gundam show? Humans vs Aliens has traditionally been Macross's area of influence. Hell, even the really wacky Gundam spinoffs like Build Fighters, G Gundam, and Gundam Wing are fundamentally about human conflict and the resolution thereof(albeit in ridiculously strange ways).
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Jan 26, 2014 13:36
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Honestly I think they should just give Gundam a rest for a bit, especially since Sunrise seem perfectly happy still doing shows like Buddy Complex which is basically Gundam with the serial numbers filed off.
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Jan 26, 2014 13:43
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I've seen people suggest that quite a few times. I've never seen anyone suggest why they should do that, because frankly, I don't see that it'd do any good. Resting the franchise won't do anything to improve the quality of the writing, animation, directing or anything else with it's eventual return. If Bandai or Sunrise executives want to interfere, they'll interfere regardless of how long you wait between shows. If the director is going to resist them, he's going to resist regardless of whether his show immediately follows a previous one or waits 20 years. If he's going to crumble, he'll crumble regardless. Waiting more than a year or two isn't going to do anything to improve the quality of the ideas present in the writing either. poo poo, you really only need a few weeks to come up with the basic outline of the show, good or bad. Time isn't going to do anything to improve that hugely. AGE's basic idea was probably dreamed up in a few days and that could have been amazing. It's the individual episode to episode writing that needed improvement, not the basic ideas. And waiting a decade or two isn't going to help that. It actually seems counter productive to me, because if they did so then the expectations on it's return series would be pretty large - and get larger the longer they waited. Wait too long and nothing could live up to it. Not that it matters, because they're not going to do it regardless when Gundam is one of their main money spinners and continues to generate money almost regardless of quality. Not entirely thankfully, as AGE proved - but when SEED and Destiny can target and keep an audience despite their issues then they have no reason to put it on ice.
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Jan 26, 2014 14:03
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One of the major complaints I had with SEED was the utterly ridiculous design of the PLANT colonies. Not only are they hilariously inefficient, it's demonstrated several times that a stiff breeze will make them catastrophically disintegrate, killing everyone inside with no chance of evacuation. Oh, and Destiny shows that they're so tightly packed that debris from one can trigger a chain reaction. I guess all the genetic engineering in the world can't fix a lack of common sense. 
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Jan 26, 2014 23:51
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Bloody Pom posted:Oh, and Destiny shows that they're so tightly packed that debris from one can trigger a chain reaction. I guess all the genetic engineering in the world can't fix a lack of common sense. This part is actually explained. They're bunched relatively closely together because it means easier transportation and easier defense. Prior to the end of SEED nobody had a giant death laser so the thought of someone smashing them with one wasn't a concern. They basically put all their eggs in one basket because (at the time) it was a titanium-reinforced basket.
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Jan 26, 2014 23:54
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Seed's worth watching just to see Kira's english VO technobabble Also dub Rau is amazing.
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Jan 27, 2014 10:19
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SEED in general would have been a thousand times more interesting if Kira spent every single battle rapidly narrating exactly what he was doing at any given moment. Both VAs had some amazing technobabble going on, the Japanese one in particular since that is like the one thing he is good at.
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Jan 27, 2014 10:23
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ActionZero posted:Also dub Rau is amazing. Rau in general is amazing. He is easily my favorite Gundam villain, because you just have to admire someone who is that nihilistic. The change from calm controlled and sensible pilot to ranting lunatic in the last few episodes is just amazingly well done.
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Jan 27, 2014 18:55
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Rau chewing the scenery is basically the one thing that got me through Gundam SEED
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Jan 27, 2014 20:27
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I'm (finally) about to start watching Gundam X. I've been sort-of exposed to the plot and characters through let's plays of SRW games, but I assume those are very broad strokes. I'll keep you posted with what I think of it-
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Jan 27, 2014 22:08
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Mikl posted:I'm (finally) about to start watching Gundam X. I've been sort-of exposed to the plot and characters through let's plays of SRW games, but I assume those are very broad strokes. Gundam X isn't terrible at all but it's very meandering and doesn't really have much of a coherent plotline for the majority of the show, at least not one that the protagonist is involved in.
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Jan 27, 2014 22:32
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The Frost Brothers are pretty crappy villains too, as far as Gundam writing goes. Gundam X: It is okay I guess.
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Jan 27, 2014 22:47
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Gundam X is an adventure story for the first half, and a pretty decent Gundam in the second. Also while you could easily argue that the Frost brothers are poor villains, if you think they're poorly written you pretty much completely missed the point. There are very few, if any, Gundam villains more relevant to the show's themes than them. Kanos posted:at least not one that the protagonist is involved in. This is, in fact, on purpose. EDIT: While I wouldn't hail it as the best Gundam (though it is my favorite), I find X to be a very solid show that managed to cleanly resolve its story despite getting canceled. It's one of the few shows I can think of that fakes you out with its theme, and hilariously enough if it aired today I think most people would interpret it as a critique of Gundam's obsession with UC. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jan 27, 2014 |
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Jan 27, 2014 22:54
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Just watched the intro to the first episode before going to bed. Not putting into spoilers because it's seriously the very first thing you see in the series. So I suppose this is a UC timeline where the Federation didn't manage to turn the tide of the One Year War, and Zeon went "You know what was a good idea? Operation British. Let's do that again, only with all the colonies this time". Also hello not-Heavyarms and not-Zeta Gundams in the OP. Mikl fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jan 27, 2014 |
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Jan 27, 2014 23:33
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Better get used to that intro because I think they start off the first seven episodes with that poo poo.
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Jan 27, 2014 23:38
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ActionZero posted:Also dub Rau is amazing. Mikl posted:Just watched the intro to the first episode before going to bed.
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Jan 27, 2014 23:42
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Gundam X has awesome OP's though 
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Jan 27, 2014 23:46
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A shame it couldn't break the "first OP's song is better than the second's" curse. But then, Dreams is unarguably the best Gundam OP song ever.  I absolutely loved all the little details between the two OPs. Tiffa's carrying DOME, you can see Jamil's GX floating around behind him, and the second OP swaps out the GX for Jamil in the scene that directly foreshadows the final episode.
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Jan 27, 2014 23:55
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BlitzBlast posted:A shame it couldn't break the "first OP's song is better than the second's" curse. But then, Dreams is unarguably the best Gundam OP song ever.
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Jan 27, 2014 23:57
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Zedd posted:I think Gundam 00 did this as probably the only recent example. Yeah, the 1st OP for 00 was pretty terrible. 2nd one was great, but TommyHeavenly's always done good work. I would also say Pride is better than Ignition, except I can't stand whoever that random rap idiot is.
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Jan 28, 2014 00:49
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So on a whim at work today I threw on some YouTube video of all the Gundam Openings just lined up and played one after another. Can someone explain why SEED and Destiny just have half the cast just naked or in their underwear at random sections? It's just jarring and honestly weird or out of place. SEED Destiny's final OP is the worst.
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Jan 28, 2014 01:20
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Can somebody explain the universal frost brothers hate? Since when has people being motivated by petty bullshit been unrealistic?
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Jan 28, 2014 01:20
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Tae posted:Yeah, the 1st OP for 00 was pretty terrible. Gundam 00's second OP is one of the best ones in the whole franchise though so it's unfair anyway.
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Jan 28, 2014 01:25
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:So on a whim at work today I threw on some YouTube video of all the Gundam Openings just lined up and played one after another. Can someone explain why SEED and Destiny just have half the cast just naked or in their underwear at random sections? It's just jarring and honestly weird or out of place. SEED Destiny's final OP is the worst. Might have something to do with SEED also being the only series to portray two characters having sex.
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Jan 28, 2014 01:28
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BlitzBlast posted:This is, in fact, on purpose. Garrod's fundamental disconnect from the actual plot for at least half the show is actually a little frustrating. It makes sense in context of the story but since he's the perspective character it's a little obnoxious that there's factions doing stuff in the background that he knows nothing about and is not involved in in the slightest until like episode 20. Artum posted:Can somebody explain the universal frost brothers hate? Since when has people being motivated by petty bullshit been unrealistic? Being motivated by petty bullshit is actually a pretty common theme in Gundam villains. People were talking about Rau earlier; his entire nihilistic "gently caress everyone" outlook is motivated primarily due to being a clone who is going to die young. Char's dropping of Axis in CCA was motivated in part due to his desire to have a last showdown with Amuro. Katejina from V is effectively the pettiest person in the history of the universe. Ali from 00 doesn't even have any motivations besides "gently caress YEAH WAR RULES". It's not being petty that makes the Frost Brothers lovely, it's that they're boring and uninteresting in the extreme in their own show. They never really do anything memorable or cool and the height of their power involves them sending a bunch of monsters of the day to get chewed up by the DX before finally losing a DBZ beam battle with it. They also have a somewhat infamous history of being incredibly annoying and persistent assholes in SRW games that involve Gundam X, particularly Alpha Gaiden which is a popular one since it's been translated.
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Jan 28, 2014 01:53
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One of the few times they've been interesting was in Z where they were byproducts of the Destiny Plan.
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Jan 28, 2014 01:55
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I'd actually argue that that ruins them, but it was a nice bit of series interaction. And not like X was one of the main parts of Z's plot anyway. Understanding the Frost brothers requires a ton of X spoilers, so since somebody is watching that at the moment I'll just spoiler tag all of this. First and foremost, you have to recognize that "how should Newtypes be treated?" is not the central theme of Gundam X. Yes, I know there are multiple factions in the show with their own viewpoint on this. But that's all misdirection. The actual message, as DOME spells out at the end, is "the world's obsession with Newtypes is killing it." Fifteen years before the show starts, humanity was almost wiped out due to a conflict sparked by Newtypes. Fast forward to the present, and most of the general populace has rebuilt and moved on. This is represented by Garrod, who honestly doesn't give a poo poo about all of the philosophy being spewed and is just in it to protect his crush and do what's right (which DOME claims to be the right mindset), and most of the "new generation" characters. But what about all of the old guys? Every single important adult figure in X is completely defined by their obsession with Newtypes. Jamil is journeying around the world looking for Newtypes to shelter. Lancerow is constantly pondering the vision of the future he saw while he was a Newtype. That one dude who brought Tiffa to space truly believed that Newtypes would pave the way to the future. Bloodman wants to establish that the concept of Newtypes does not mean that everyone else is an outdated "Oldtype". Rasso uses Newtypes as his main evidence that the people who live in space are superior. Aimzat wanted a Newtype so he could use their power to rocket up the ranks. Hell, even those four random chucklefucks who popped up in the "hey let's get Witz and Roybea new Gundams" part were all around because the military suspected they might be Newtypes. Newtypes, Newtypes, Newtypes. At first all of this seems like it's fitting into the "how should Newtypes be treated" question, but as DOME rants at the end it's all just proof that the world can not get over Newtypes. That brings us to the Frost Brothers. They are the direct result of this obsession, and a representation of how it has harmed the world. They have a power that nobody else has, and it's an incredibly useful one as they repeatedly demonstrate. But because they weren't Newtypes, nobody gave a poo poo. They are literally labeled failures, and multiple people tell them this to their face. This led to their main motivation: they want to prove that they, the "Category F's", are superior to Newtypes, so they need to start another war to show off their power. Which, ironically, means that they're as caught up in the Newtype hype as everyone else. Almost every analysis of the Frost Brothers calls them petty. And that's entirely correct, because holy poo poo they are trying to start a war just to assuage their egos. The show doesn't dance around how entirely pathetic they are either; Garrod (who once again represents the new generation) gets incredibly pissed off when he hears their motivation and responds to their "you could never understand  " with a blunt "OF COURSE I CAN'T, THAT'S loving STUPID". But remember that the Frost Brothers themselves represent the lingering specter of Newtypes. If you really think about it, the efforts of all the main adult characters are just as pathetic as the Frost Brothers. There is like one Newtype left in the world, and she doesn't even want to be one. Jamil, Lanselow, Bloodman, Rasso, everyone is just spinning their wheels in place for no reason whatsoever. There is a very good reason that when Jamil gets his answer from DOME, it's visually represented as water getting splashed on him. Dude needed to wake up from the Newtype dream and just move on like the rest of the world. The exact same thing could be said bout the Frost Brothers (which is why DOME also invited them). But their inability to do that is what cripples them and prevents them from growing as characters. Which is why they're so petty and one dimensional: if they actually had some depth to them, they wouldn't even be doing what they're doing. Which is why I think the SRW Z twist is kind of stupid, but eh.In the epilogue, most of the surviving adults are shown to have successfully moved on with their lives. But the Frost Brothers? All we see of them is that they're kind of just following Garrod and Tiffa around or something. Without Newtypes, they have nothing to live for. But they're alive, and since Gundam X is a pretty optimistic show they'll probably find something eventually. Not that we'll ever know since like the only sequel to X was that one manga that seems entirely unrelated to the show. EDIT: V Well now I need to see the Gundam X sequel where the Frost Brothers take up swimming in an effort to overcome the dolphin. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Jan 28, 2014 |
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Jan 28, 2014 02:56
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Hey, you missed something. There are TWO Newtypes left. Tiffa, and that dolphin.
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Jan 28, 2014 03:00
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So I picked up Mobile Suit Gundam: The Origin Vol 1. from Amazon (hardcover copy and all), but my copy is missing the essays that are supposed to be at the back of the book. The index has them as "Bonus Essays - Flip Side" but the book just ends at page 440. Is my copy screwed up or am I missing something obvious?
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Jan 28, 2014 03:52
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unpurposed posted:So I picked up Mobile Suit Gundam: The Origin Vol 1. from Amazon (hardcover copy and all), but my copy is missing the essays that are supposed to be at the back of the book. The index has them as "Bonus Essays - Flip Side" but the book just ends at page 440. Your copy's screwed, it should be ending on page 444 with the essays afterwards.
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Jan 28, 2014 03:57
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Your copy's screwed, it should be ending on page 444 with the essays afterwards. Well great. Haha. 
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Jan 28, 2014 04:05
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Getting back to OP chat for a bit, turns out there's a band that does covers of Gundam OPs. They're called the Knights in Gale, and seem pretty cool.
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Jan 28, 2014 04:31
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:So on a whim at work today I threw on some YouTube video of all the Gundam Openings just lined up and played one after another. Can someone explain why SEED and Destiny just have half the cast just naked or in their underwear at random sections? It's just jarring and honestly weird or out of place. SEED Destiny's final OP is the worst. because fanservice sells, therefore they added naked chicks. Granted it makes no sense, but that's seed for you.
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Jan 28, 2014 05:52
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BlitzBlast posted:Getting back to OP chat for a bit, turns out there's a band that does covers of Gundam OPs. They're called the Knights in Gale, and seem pretty cool. That Dreams cover isn't bad but man their Invoke is awful and Fly in the Sky is just kind of weird.
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Jan 28, 2014 05:52
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