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Samurai Sanders posted:but when it comes down to it, the current situation with China and Korea ignoring all of that, and the Japanese government acting like they don't have to apologize, is advantageous for both governments, so why do anything to mess with it? This part I certainly agree with, and I understand why the governments continue to act the way they do, as distasteful as it may be. I was just more surprised I guess at how wholeheartedly the populace seems to get in line with the government stance on things, at least from what I've read about Korea and Dokdo day and those sort of things (although in their defense the whole Takeshima thing is laughable and I can only hope the reason Japan is still holding to their claims is to one day magnanimously relinquish those claims in order to earn good will from Korea... a man can dream, can't he?). Although "the whole populace" is coming from a pretty biased sample set of the loudest and most obnoxious who complain on the internet, so maybe the average Korean gives as little a poo poo about it as I'd hope they would.
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Jan 28, 2014 18:10
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CronoGamer posted:This part I certainly agree with, and I understand why the governments continue to act the way they do, as distasteful as it may be. I was just more surprised I guess at how wholeheartedly the populace seems to get in line with the government stance on things, at least from what I've read about Korea and Dokdo day and those sort of things (although in their defense the whole Takeshima thing is laughable and I can only hope the reason Japan is still holding to their claims is to one day magnanimously relinquish those claims in order to earn good will from Korea... a man can dream, can't he?). Although "the whole populace" is coming from a pretty biased sample set of the loudest and most obnoxious who complain on the internet, so maybe the average Korean gives as little a poo poo about it as I'd hope they would. Japan isn't filled to the brim with right-wingers or anything. Most people aren't frothing at the mouth about the Korean menace. One of the unfortunate privileges of doing what Japan did is the ability to throw it down the memory hole a scant few generations later. Most of the populace is quite uneducated about the issues, and much of the populace will readily admit it. Some of the nastier right wingers have all sorts of opinions on it, and politicians want to make diplomatic issues of it. Most other people have the attitude of "I don't really have time for this bickering." Which can sound good on its face, but makes them lean a bit toward the inherent bias of "Korea and China are just trying to make trouble, and Japan's probably right." The disputed islands thing is kind of a Rorschach test of an issue, and basically just mirrors existing bias across the board. A lot of Japanese people are deeply uninterested in politics, and so their approach tends to be, "I don't really understand why we care about these tiny islands." and "These are memes that exist to be thrown around by politicians during election time that nobody really cares about." Compared to America, I find Japanese people to be extremely disinterested in politics, and that isn't surprising considering that the current state of Japanese national elections is one of mass disenfranchisement. People feel like they don't understand the issues, are uninterested in learning about the issues, and feel like their opinion on these things wouldn't really matter in an election anyway. Japan not electing the prime minister directly also contributes to these feelings. In America there's a sense of, "I voted for Obama so Obama is my president." or "I voted against Romney, and so all those Obama voters are to blame for his policies." In Japan, the feeling is, "I guess Abe is prime minister now... again."
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Jan 29, 2014 01:11
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CronoGamer posted:I can only hope the reason Japan is still holding to their claims is to one day magnanimously relinquish those claims in order to earn good will from Korea Politicians hold on to the issue of Dokdo because the prefecture that it supposedly belongs to cares intensely about it and Japanese politics are intensely local. You can apply this to just about every issue that makes you wonder why Japan holds on when even its own people don't seem to feel strongly about the issue: whaling, the dolphin hunt, territorial disputes, etc. There is a tiny, improportionately powerful rural community that cares deeply about it and will vote based on that one thing.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:26
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Lemmi Caution posted:Politicians hold on to the issue of Dokdo because the prefecture that it supposedly belongs to cares intensely about it and Japanese politics are intensely local. You can apply this to just about every issue that makes you wonder why Japan holds on when even its own people don't seem to feel strongly about the issue: whaling, the dolphin hunt, territorial disputes, etc. There is a tiny, improportionately powerful rural community that cares deeply about it and will vote based on that one thing. So basically all of Japan is Florida.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:29
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ArchangeI posted:So basically all of Japan is Florida. Similar demographics and less meth.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:30
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Grand Fromage posted:Similar demographics and less meth. Japan invented meth.
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Jan 29, 2014 04:39
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Stringent posted:Japan invented meth. You mean Shabu Shabu 
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Jan 29, 2014 05:31
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Stringent posted:Japan invented meth.
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Jan 29, 2014 05:32
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caberham posted:You mean Shabu Shabu Um he's called Jabu jabu, and he's a fish god, thank you
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Jan 29, 2014 05:33
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caberham posted:You mean Shabu Shabu No, they literally invented meth.
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Jan 29, 2014 05:47
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Stringent posted:No, they literally invented meth. edit: specifically this guy. Why is this article so small though? And the Japanese one is only slightly bigger. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 05:53
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Samurai Sanders posted:Yep. To keep their pilots awake during WW2, right? I tried to confirm whether "Aviation Tablet A" is Meth or not, but thanks to Apple and Google "Aviation Tablet" isn't the most useful of searches.
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Jan 29, 2014 07:07
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quote:Japan not electing the prime minister directly also contributes to these feelings. In America there's a sense of, "I voted for Obama so Obama is my president." or "I voted against Romney, and so all those Obama voters are to blame for his policies." In Japan, the feeling is, "I guess Abe is prime minister now... again." You made some solid points, but I have to disagree with this one. Coming from a country where we don't directly elect our Prime Minister (or head of state) either, it does not contribute at all to a disconnection from politics. There are many interrelated reasons for political apathy in Japan, but I don't think this is one of them.
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Jan 29, 2014 08:07
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Samurai Sanders posted:Yep. To keep their pilots awake during WW2, right? Everybody in WW2 was stuffing their pilots with amphetamines, from my understanding. And the Germans at least gave them to infantry too.
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Jan 29, 2014 13:58
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Grand Fromage posted:Everybody in WW2 was stuffing their pilots with amphetamines, from my understanding. And the Germans at least gave them to infantry too. There is a popular belief (not sure if it's actually true) that Hitler's (even) more erratic behaviour towards the end of the war was due to him hitting the amphetamines pretty hard.
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Jan 29, 2014 14:09
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Lemmi Caution posted:Politicians hold on to the issue of Dokdo because the prefecture that it supposedly belongs to cares intensely about it and Japanese politics are intensely local. You can apply this to just about every issue that makes you wonder why Japan holds on when even its own people don't seem to feel strongly about the issue: whaling, the dolphin hunt, territorial disputes, etc. There is a tiny, improportionately powerful rural community that cares deeply about it and will vote based on that one thing. How does that reconcile with the Okinawa base moving agreements though? The people in the area where it's moving are furious (for some kinda dumb reasons imo) and basically elect their Mayer based on that one single issue, don't they? And yet it's still going to go ahead because it's important for Japan. Why tank relations with Korea due to a sense of loyalty to one prefecture unless they have plenty of other reasons for doing so?
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Jan 29, 2014 14:40
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CronoGamer posted:How does that reconcile with the Okinawa base moving agreements though? The people in the area where it's moving are furious (for some kinda dumb reasons imo) and basically elect their Mayer based on that one single issue, don't they? And yet it's still going to go ahead because it's important for Japan. Why tank relations with Korea due to a sense of loyalty to one prefecture unless they have plenty of other reasons for doing so? Even if Japan straight-up retracted their claim on Dokdo would it really make relations with Korea any better? Realistically speaking, hating on Japan is far too politically useful and culturally engrained in Korea. Even ignoring WWII, there are significant numbers of Koreans that harbor a grudge against Japan for invading in the 1590s. Given that backdrop, I can see why a cynical politician would make hay over Dokdo, because it's not like Korea is going to stop hating them if they don't. It certainly doesn't make the situation any better, especially given the weakness of Japan's claim, but until both sides become willing to genuinely reconcile nothing is going to change. Outside of some sort of existential threat to both nations that forces them to band together, I don't see that happening though. And even then I have my doubts--the Cold War came pretty close and that didn't do anything.
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Jan 29, 2014 15:36
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Right, I agree with that entirely (and actually wrote a paper last semester arguing essentially the same thing about Senkaku/Diaoyu being far too politically valuable for China or Japan to settle on). I was just responding to Lemmi's post about it having to do with the loyalty of Japanese politics and the interests of that very small niche group. I found that a little more difficult to reconcile so was asking if he could do so.
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Jan 29, 2014 16:22
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The Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare is proposing changing the restriction on "dispatch" (派遣) labor so that the three year limit is per worker. This seems totally insane to me. It would probably be better for workers if they simply eliminated the limit; this will ensure companies fire people after 3 years while doing nothing to promote use of permanent employees. Edit: I'm not sure if the existing limit was actually enforced in a way that's different from the proposed change anyway though? mystes fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 17:13
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ozza posted:You made some solid points, but I have to disagree with this one. Coming from a country where we don't directly elect our Prime Minister (or head of state) either, it does not contribute at all to a disconnection from politics. There are many interrelated reasons for political apathy in Japan, but I don't think this is one of them. When you look at other countries that have a system where the voters elect a party into power, they nevertheless have a very definite leader in charge so you know that when you vote for, say the Canadian Tories, you're voting for Harper and if you voted for, say, Aussie Labor in their most recent elections, you'd have been voting for Kevin Rudd. The lack of an actual definite leader combined with the constant merry-go-round at the top can not be dismissed as factors contributing greatly to the disconnect that many Japanese feel with politics. I mean, look at the Prime Ministers and how long they've generally lasted during the Heisei-era. Bar a few exceptions, they've generally struggled to stay in office for more than 18 months, particularly the bunch post-Koizumi. poo poo, Koizumi was in office for what seems like a lifetime, but it was actually only 5 years.
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Jan 29, 2014 19:41
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Vagabundo posted:When you look at other countries that have a system where the voters elect a party into power, they nevertheless have a very definite leader in charge so you know that when you vote for, say the Canadian Tories, you're voting for Harper and if you voted for, say, Aussie Labor in their most recent elections, you'd have been voting for Kevin Rudd. The lack of an actual definite leader combined with the constant merry-go-round at the top can not be dismissed as factors contributing greatly to the disconnect that many Japanese feel with politics. I mean, look at the Prime Ministers and how long they've generally lasted during the Heisei-era. Bar a few exceptions, they've generally struggled to stay in office for more than 18 months, particularly the bunch post-Koizumi. poo poo, Koizumi was in office for what seems like a lifetime, but it was actually only 5 years. I don't disagree that a cast of revolving leaders fosters an atmosphere of political disengagement, I was arguing that a system of non-directly elected of leaders in itself does not result in political apathy.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:21
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mystes posted:Edit: I'm not sure if the existing limit was actually enforced in a way that's different from the proposed change anyway though? Sure hasn't been - as you said, now they just fire people after five years (soon to be three, apparently). One of the real fundamental problems with Japan, especially in terms of employment, is that laws just aren't enforced worth a poo poo and there are no real penalties for violating a lot of them. Overtime pay is enshrined in law in super-clear language yet practically no one receives it. A similar situation exists in regards to vacation time, with a far more egregious violation occurring there as often using vacation time incurs the wrath of bosses and can seriously harm careers because you're "not dedicated enough", people being convinced they have to ask their boss' permission to use such time, employers thinking they have the right to refuse use of vacation time, etc. Violation of labor contracts is relatively widespread, yet the labor boards have practically zero power to force employers to do anything or even fine them - in 99% of cases the most they can do is write a letter to employers politely asking them to follow the terms of the contract. Really employment and working in Japan is just a huge clusterfuck all around, and I don't see much that can be done to really fix it without doing a complete overhaul on society's thinking as well. Sheep fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 23:41
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I bet if vacation time was mandatory, the employees would still somehow be pressured into coming to work during that time.
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Jan 30, 2014 00:28
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ozza posted:I don't disagree that a cast of revolving leaders fosters an atmosphere of political disengagement, I was arguing that a system of non-directly elected of leaders in itself does not result in political apathy. ErIog never said it was the definitive factor in the first place, but a contributing one, and by inference, one of several though.
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Jan 30, 2014 00:32
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Grand Fromage posted:Japan paid reparations, which were immediately taken by the dictator of South Korea, Park Chung-hee (father of the current president), and used to build factories and such. There's an ongoing lawsuit against the government by the people who should've gotten the money, as they got nothing. There have also been dozens of official apologies. I have yet to meet a Korean who is aware of any of this, and even when I've shown the apologies to otherwise rational Korean friends when this topic came up, they just brushed it off and continued to assert there were no apologies and Japan/Japanese people are inherently evil. Not everyone believes that of course, but it is depressingly common. That's a pretty generous view of japan's apologies, when each one has been met with another government official denying/downplaying the same. Abe himself, in his first term as prime minister in 2007, literally said there is no evidence the "comfort women" issue even existed in terms of the japanese government being involved. You can probably appreciate how much a 1993 apology from a chief secretary means when Japan's current head honcho publically believes otherwise. So I don't see this as a "japan apologizes but korea doesn't listen" situation. There is so little apparent sincerity in these apologies it's hilarious to a third party observer but probably infuriating to the victims, and it's understandable if the koreans don't put any weight in them. By the way I agree the attitudes of korean nationalists are depressing, I just don't agree with your point about japan putting in effort since there's been more than enough countereffort by Abe et al. It's much easier to undermine trust than to build it so each one of these gaffes (are they even gaffes the speakers actually believe what they're saying?) is extremely damaging.
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Jan 30, 2014 05:02
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Vagabundo posted:ErIog never said it was the definitive factor in the first place, but a contributing one, and by inference, one of several though. I'll admit that it was kind of a spurious claim that I can't really support. It also doesn't really make sense now that I think about it, and also about some of the stuff other people have posted.
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Jan 30, 2014 10:27
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I was at a dinner with one of the writers of the National Security Strategy the other day and someone asked him point blank about Abe and his dumbness with Yasukuni and other issues. He sighed and said "I have no rational explanation for his behavior". He went on to explain that pretty much every single advisor in his circle told him not to go but that he went anyway. He posited that, maybe, it was a calculated leadership gamble to quiet the right wing elements of the LDP in order to firmly grasp the party leadership. So I guess the lesson is that Abe is a cold, calculating, revisionist son-of-a-bitch who at least is a better political realist that his grandfather and doesn't give two shits about foreign policy that is already so hosed up that anything he does probably won't have a positive effect anyway. This doesn't excuse the visit or make it "right", but it does sort of explain it.
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Jan 30, 2014 18:19
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There's a new Japanese history thread in A/T, so feel free to spread you Japanese political knowledge! http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3605918
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Jan 31, 2014 06:34
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Zo posted:That's a pretty generous view of japan's apologies, when each one has been met with another government official denying/downplaying the same. Abe himself, in his first term as prime minister in 2007, literally said there is no evidence the "comfort women" issue even existed in terms of the japanese government being involved. You can probably appreciate how much a 1993 apology from a chief secretary means when Japan's current head honcho publically believes otherwise. This is completely wrong. Stop trying to stir up this hornet's nest, there's a goddamn Wikipedia article listing all of the Japanese apologies for WWII. There have been many, many apologies from all levels of government.
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Jan 31, 2014 23:46
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Longanimitas posted:This is completely wrong. Stop trying to stir up this hornet's nest, there's a goddamn Wikipedia article listing all of the Japanese apologies for WWII. There have been many, many apologies from all levels of government. Anyway, it's true, Mac Akasaka has returned! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSdRsdGZZKA It's time for smile training, everyone. Fifteen degrees...twenty degrees....THIRTY DEGREES!! Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Feb 1, 2014 |
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Feb 1, 2014 04:51
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Mac Akasaka for Emperor. Seriously, the day this guy doesn't do an election video for Tokyo will be a sad, smile-less day. So many great gifs can be made from that video too.
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Feb 1, 2014 06:09
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CronoGamer posted:Right, I agree with that entirely (and actually wrote a paper last semester arguing essentially the same thing about Senkaku/Diaoyu being far too politically valuable for China or Japan to settle on). I was just responding to Lemmi's post about it having to do with the loyalty of Japanese politics and the interests of that very small niche group. I found that a little more difficult to reconcile so was asking if he could do so. Japan basically has a legacy colonial relation with the Ryukyu islands that persists in how they treat Okinawa to this day.
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Feb 1, 2014 09:45
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Longanimitas posted:This is completely wrong. Stop trying to stir up this hornet's nest, there's a goddamn Wikipedia article listing all of the Japanese apologies for WWII. There have been many, many apologies from all levels of government.
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Feb 2, 2014 02:24
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Japan has apologized many times but assholes in the loving government keep making revisionist claims. It doesn't matter how sincere Japan has been when high ranking representatives say the opposite all too frequently.
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Feb 2, 2014 12:03
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hadji murad posted:Japan has apologized many times but assholes in the loving government keep making revisionist claims. It doesn't matter how sincere Japan has been when high ranking representatives say the opposite all too frequently. This is my exact point. And in this case it's the highest ranking representatives saying the opposite. So I don't know what that "here's a wikipedia list of all the apologies they've made!!" post is supposed to mean.
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Feb 2, 2014 13:16
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Honestly I think it'd be kind of offensive if a country said to me "Okay, we murdered your people for decades and tried to conquer your country. What token can we do so you forget about this?" (This is from the perspective of the Chinese/Korean governments)
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Feb 2, 2014 15:05
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computer parts posted:Honestly I think it'd be kind of offensive if a country said to me "Okay, we murdered your people for decades and tried to conquer your country. What token can we do so you forget about this?"
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Feb 2, 2014 15:08
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mystes posted:This is a weird perspective for the Korean government to have considering that it was the one that asked the Japanese government for money and it accepted it. I'm saying it's a valid position to have from that perspective. e: Especially in light of the Japanese Right apparently going "OK, we settled it, now we can forget about it".
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Feb 2, 2014 15:12
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computer parts posted:Honestly I think it'd be kind of offensive if a country said to me "Okay, we murdered your people for decades and tried to conquer your country. What token can we do so you forget about this?" Well to be fair the Chinese/Korean governments are definitely not playing this in total good faith or anything. That's a totally valid perspective for the people though.
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Feb 2, 2014 15:21
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Eternal implacable hostility isn't a very good situation either, though. Japan may or may not have made them, but it has to be possible for a country to make amends for diplomacy and ~world peace~ to be viable.
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Feb 2, 2014 15:42
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