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Whoops, missed that. You're right.
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Jan 30, 2014 22:54
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Cream of the crop of the crop.
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Jan 30, 2014 23:26
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Canon has great ISO performance, but they've been pretty behind in dynamic range for a while. Even the sensors in their cinema stuff have the same problems. Sony might be worse at colour/coming up with a system, but they've certainly got a tech advantage.
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Jan 31, 2014 09:42
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I've posted this a few times before, but patents were filed for tech that essentially does dual ISO, except for each photo cell instead of alternate scanlines as Magic Lantern does. So a solution is being worked on. The problem now is the wait for this to get actually implemented. I'd figure one of the next FF iterations would come with this. If at all. Then again, they also have patents for a Foveon style sensor, which everyone says is deadlocked with some actual Foveon patent, which is due to expire. Except no one seems to be able to point out which one it is and when exactly it's supposed to expire.
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Jan 31, 2014 13:30
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I'm pretty sure Fuji has already been doing a sort of dual-ISO capture for years. But nobody uses Fuji cameras.
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Jan 31, 2014 13:33
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Possible. Maybe others have been doing this, too. I find it curious that others already get 14 and something stops of range, where as Canon essentially needs to do this dual ISO business to get the same DR. Also, given various graphs seen at sites like DXO et al, that other brands lose DR pretty fast and getting into and below Canon territory, when going into high ISO, it kind of supports the idea that everyone except Canon's doing it.
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Jan 31, 2014 13:39
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Aside from the gripes about DR, Canon's high ISO is pretty nice considering how it favors the f/4 zooms. No need to splurge out on a 24-70 or 70-200 2.8 when the 24-105 or 70-200 f4 and an ISO bump does just fine for a good deal less money. Pros don't care of course.
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Jan 31, 2014 20:15
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Combat Pretzel posted:Possible. Maybe others have been doing this, too. I find it curious that others already get 14 and something stops of range, where as Canon essentially needs to do this dual ISO business to get the same DR. Also, given various graphs seen at sites like DXO et al, that other brands lose DR pretty fast and getting into and below Canon territory, when going into high ISO, it kind of supports the idea that everyone except Canon's doing it. Every Canon camera except for the C300 loses tons of DR at the higher ISO's. Somehow they made a magic camera that keeps 12 stops no matter what ISO you're at. I also doubt the other manufacturers are doing dual ISO. I could kind of see it with full frame sensors since you have more pixels to work with and can debayer/resample without losing much quality, but the Blackmagic Cinema Camera has about as much DR as a D800 and it's sensor is around m4/3 sized. 1st AD fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 20:27
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1st AD posted:Every Canon camera except for the C300 loses tons of DR at the higher ISO's. Canon's lose DR at high ISO, but I think what he was saying is that they lose it slower than the other sensors - The Sony and Toshiba sensors AFAIK , have a big DR advantage at base ISO, but as it goes up, they equalize with the Canon sensors, then drop below them at high ISOs.
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Jan 31, 2014 20:38
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timrenzi574 posted:Canon's lose DR at high ISO, but I think what he was saying is that they lose it slower than the other sensors - The Sony and Toshiba sensors AFAIK , have a big DR advantage at base ISO, but as it goes up, they equalize with the Canon sensors, then drop below them at high ISOs. I'd love to see a source for that.
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Jan 31, 2014 20:40
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Mr. Despair posted:I'd love to see a source for that. DXOMark - Check the 1dx vs DF , or 6d vs d800 - once you get to 1600/3200, the Canon sensors have higher dynamic range than the Sonys. I was wrong on the crops though, the 70D becomes more in line with the Toshiba d7100 sensor, but doesn't ever go above it (Just checked) Edit: Grain of salt as with all DXO robot measurements as to how much this actually means. Edit2: And it's not a huge difference - .3-1 stop , but the way the Sony & Toshiba sensors "fall off a cliff" and steeply drop back in line with the Canons after a certain point, but have such a huge 2.5-3.5 stop advantage at low ISO, suggests that whatever they are doing to get that advantage, is not sustainable at high ISO. Whether that's because they're doing some kind of dual ISO trick like ML does for Canon or not, who knows, it's their secret sauce. timrenzi574 fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 20:45
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nielsm posted:I'm pretty sure Fuji has already been doing a sort of dual-ISO capture for years. But nobody uses Fuji cameras. They have with their EXR sensors, but the actual output goes from "hey, that works really well!" to "I think this actually made everything WORSE" from year to year.
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Jan 31, 2014 21:07
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1st AD posted:I also doubt the other manufacturers are doing dual ISO. I could kind of see it with full frame sensors since you have more pixels to work with and can debayer/resample without losing much quality That said, I'm surprised that Canon's not fudging some mosaiced dual ISO on their 70D sensor, since each pixel is two subpixels.
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Jan 31, 2014 22:07
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Mr. Despair posted:I'd love to see a source for that. What the other dude said, the Sony/Nikon sensors crush the Canons in DR up until about 3200 where they even out and the Canon's pull away slightly. If you look at the chart, you may notice that the Sony sensors lose a stop of DR for every stop of sensitivity you add. The reason being, and I'm paraphrasing heavily here, is that the Sony EXMOR sensors are a pseudo iso-less design, as in they don't see much electrical amplification until you crank up the ISO to a certain amount. So on Canon it's better to bump the ISO in-camera than in post, a D600 it doesn't matter as much.
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Jan 31, 2014 22:55
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Mightaswell posted:What the other dude said, the Sony/Nikon sensors crush the Canons in DR up until about 3200 where they even out and the Canon's pull away slightly.
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Jan 31, 2014 23:56
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evil_bunnY posted:So basically unless you're using your camera as NVG, you're better off getting not-canon. Gotcha. Or if you shoot sports or wildlife or weddings or concerts or you're a photojournalist. Also, the only thing I look for when I buy into a camera system is DxO sensor scores.
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Feb 1, 2014 03:01
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I won't try and defend Canon's laughable sensor update cycle, but I will say that different camera have different strengths. For me I decided to go Canon for the high ISO, speed, AF, lenses, video, etc. I honestly spend most of my time shooting digital at 1600 and higher.
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Feb 1, 2014 04:26
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Also, no one will ever have anything near as good as CPS
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Feb 1, 2014 17:17
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rcman50166 posted:Also, no one will ever have anything near as good as CPS Even without CPS, their service is outstanding afaic. I just had my 60mm macro focus mechanism repaired, I dropped it off at USPS on a thursday morning, and it was back in my hands via fedex the following wed afternoon.
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Feb 1, 2014 18:46
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timrenzi574 posted:Even without CPS, their service is outstanding afaic. I just had my 60mm macro focus mechanism repaired, I dropped it off at USPS on a thursday morning, and it was back in my hands via fedex the following wed afternoon. I can't speak for their mail-in service, but the one time I went to an actual Nikon service depot (I was fortunate enough to live like 20 minutes from one), it was great. Dude in front of me was bringing his banged-up 300/2.8 in, and the front desk lady asked if he'd done some warranty-voiding mod that apparently lets you use TCs it wasn't designed for, and that it was important that she tell him, so that if he had, she could write down that that part of the lens was damaged in whatever accident he had, so the service guys wouldn't kick it back as voided-warranty. They then proceeded to repair my in-several-pieces SB600, obvious drop damage since there was still some concrete dust embedded in a corner, under warranty.
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Feb 1, 2014 20:55
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SoundMonkey posted:I can't speak for their mail-in service, but the one time I went to an actual Nikon service depot (I was fortunate enough to live like 20 minutes from one), it was great. Dude in front of me was bringing his banged-up 300/2.8 in, and the front desk lady asked if he'd done some warranty-voiding mod that apparently lets you use TCs it wasn't designed for, and that it was important that she tell him, so that if he had, she could write down that that part of the lens was damaged in whatever accident he had, so the service guys wouldn't kick it back as voided-warranty. That is pretty awesome of them - I was really worried they were going to bump this back as warranty void because I know the USM mechanisms on a lot of lenses get damaged in drops, and the symptoms are exactly what I was experiencing (focus ring hanging up/sticking at a certain point) - It seems that everyone has that happen to their 50/1.4 at some point. So I was thrilled when they replaced it no questions.
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Feb 1, 2014 22:06
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Nikon's US service is slow and generally does not compare well to Canon, Sigma, Tamron, or anyone other than Olympus really. It's the only thing I really miss about shooting Canon.
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Feb 2, 2014 00:07
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I dunno, maybe I'm missing something but the DR thing seems to be kind of exaggerated. Like, I can post photos of random landscapes and portraits and its hard to distinguish which camera did what. The benefit seems to be recovering detail in shadows, which is cool I guess, but unless you're really underexposing and pulling shadows up, the 5d III does pretty good. I would like more megapixels though, I really appreciate the direction the d800 took cameras, and im not against pushing sensors (including DR) but I havent seen very many examples where the d800 "blows away" canons images based on DR. Can someone post an example of why I'm wrong? I feel like im missing something.
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Feb 2, 2014 06:31
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somnambulist posted:I dunno, maybe I'm missing something but the DR thing seems to be kind of exaggerated. Like, I can post photos of random landscapes and portraits and its hard to distinguish which camera did what. The benefit seems to be recovering detail in shadows, which is cool I guess, but unless you're really underexposing and pulling shadows up, the 5d III does pretty good. More stops is more options in editing and you get to have better results if you love shooting directly into the sun/less likely to clip highlights in general. That being said, if you actually manage to get the shot right the first time, you probably don't need those extra 2 stops anyway. It'd be neat if digital cameras can get closer to real life DR than film ever did, but right now it's not quite where film negative was, mostly only when it comes to dealing with highlights. When Sony made their F35 digital cinema camera they specifically programmed the sensor to dedicate extra DR to the top end, just to emulate how film rolled off its highlights. It came at the cost of bottom end/darker area performance, though.
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Feb 2, 2014 12:33
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For finished photos people post on the net you'll find stuff that looks great from all sorts of cameras that don't have amazing sensors—you don't have to have the best to make a good photo. Where you'll really notice the difference is if you're actually using the camera and doing post processing yourself. An example would be HDR shots, where the sky is super bright and the landscape is relatively very dim. With the D800's massive shadow detail you can expose for the highlights and bring up the shadows in post instead of doing several exposures. And when you actually see the shadows compared it's a very obvious difference. This Fred Miranda article has a good example: http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html
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Feb 2, 2014 17:50
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I'm looking for a used fuji x100. KEH has 1 EX+ for $750, and Adormama has and E+ for $750 and an E for $700. Is on of these more reputable than the other? I've seen you guys say before that KEH under rates a lot, is that the same for Adorama? I'm really torn.
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Feb 2, 2014 17:55
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powderific posted:This Fred Miranda article has a good example: http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html Goddamn the D800 is such a good camera. Canon have nothing like it at the moment.
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Feb 2, 2014 18:07
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Dial M for MURDER posted:I'm looking for a used fuji x100. KEH has 1 EX+ for $750, and Adormama has and E+ for $750 and an E for $700. Is on of these more reputable than the other? I've seen you guys say before that KEH under rates a lot, is that the same for Adorama? I'm really torn.
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Feb 2, 2014 18:19
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Is it worth spending the $750 at KEH, rather than like $500-600 on Ebay? Obviously Ebay might not be in as good of condition, but $250 it quite a difference.
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Feb 2, 2014 18:30
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Quantum of Phallus posted:Goddamn the D800 is such a good camera. Canon have nothing like it at the moment. 
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Feb 2, 2014 18:32
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Need some general advice. If you wanted to go full frame and had nothing invested in a current system, what would you recommend in the sub 2000 market? I would theoretically be dropping around 3000ish total after tax refunds so while I would love something like a 5d mkiii, that would eat up the while budget before lenses. Would really like weather dealing as well as I would be using this for outdoor gigs. I have an X100 which I use all the time and am happy with, and have invested in the NEX system with a few lenses as well as old manual glass but I am a) not happy with how stagnant NEX has gotten (I was about ready to get an NEX-7 but I just question how fast that market seems to be moving with bodies but not lenses) b) would like something for better autofocus and c) would love to make a move towards full frame. Again, I am not really tied to a system. All of my camera research since I got interested in photography in 2011 has been on mirrorless stuff so I have just begun looking at DSLRs. Maybe something like a d600?
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Feb 2, 2014 20:01
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Dial M for MURDER posted:Is it worth spending the $750 at KEH, rather than like $500-600 on Ebay? eBay offers 100% buyer protection. I've used it and I trust them, it might just take some time if there's a problem because they want you to work it out with the seller if you can. That said, most stuff I've got from ebay was problem free and the one problem I did have wasn't really the sellers fault but they ended up paying to fix it anyway. I don't know how KEH works it but I know that you can haggle prices on used gear with Adorama if you get them on the phone. KEH might be the same.
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Feb 2, 2014 20:41
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Combat Pretzel posted:I've read somewhere that part of the noise on Canon is that the ADC is supposedly in the DIGIC chip (external ADC), where as Nikon on at least the D800 has it sitting on the sensor (internal ADC). External ADCs apparently introduce way more noise via interference on the signal path from the sensor to the DIGIC chip. Supposedly Canon's working on internal ADCs, too, now, going from various patents. Of course, it's just a matter of years until we see some fruits of that labor. Took me 10 years to replace my 10D with a 70D, so it was a huge tech bump for me! Just have to wait another 10 years now for Canon to master this, NBD 
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Feb 2, 2014 21:12
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powderific posted:This Fred Miranda article has a good example: http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html Quantum of Phallus posted:Goddamn the D800 is such a good camera. Canon have nothing like it at the moment. Good lord... I've never seen that kind of ISO comparison between these two cameras. As someone shooting with a 5DmkII, I kinda thought all brands of cameras would show similar color noise in pushed shadows... this is the first thing to really make me want to switch to Nikon 
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Feb 2, 2014 22:40
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Yeah, as soon as my friend got his D800 and showed me how flexible the raws were, I knew I'd be switching. Despite the excess oil on the shutters of the D600, I'm really quite pleased with the quality of that camera.
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Feb 2, 2014 23:00
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1st AD posted:Yeah, as soon as my friend got his D800 and showed me how flexible the raws were, I knew I'd be switching. Are the D600 sensors also from Sony?
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Feb 3, 2014 00:13
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I have never been sad to be in the Pentax system until I saw the D800's performance and realized that who knows if Pentax will ever go FF.
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Feb 3, 2014 00:37
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800peepee51doodoo posted:eBay offers 100% buyer protection. I've used it and I trust them, it might just take some time if there's a problem because they want you to work it out with the seller if you can. That said, most stuff I've got from ebay was problem free and the one problem I did have wasn't really the sellers fault but they ended up paying to fix it anyway. I don't know how KEH works it but I know that you can haggle prices on used gear with Adorama if you get them on the phone. KEH might be the same. Keh has a 6 month warranty and they're pretty loose with it (toward the customer). They're pretty much unquestioning, their CS is second to none. That is worth something, but not $250.
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Feb 3, 2014 00:47
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One point in favour of KEH is the big discount you'll get on combined shipping if you decide to buy a bunch of stuff at once from them. Any random eBay seller might or might not have the other things you're looking for (lenses, to spell out the obvious example). If the eBay seller you find has a great price, cool, but if they don't have the other things you're looking for then combined shipping simply isn't possible whereas a big order from KEH will get you at least that discount, plus anything else you can negotiate with them. Again, probably not worth $250 unless you're really going to town with ton different things.
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Feb 3, 2014 02:20
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I appreciate the incite. I've never purchased electronics cameras online before, I think I'll keep on the lookout for a good deal on Ebay. Thanks
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Feb 3, 2014 22:46
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