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Looks a bit like Christina Hendricks.
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Feb 4, 2014 06:18
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Is interesting how many comic book artists can get away with tracing when I know of at least one case on Japan of a mangaka having his career destroyed by accusations of tracing. Well, his non H-career at least.
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Feb 4, 2014 06:18
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TwoPair posted:Please, Jones will have to do much, much worse to beat the king of poo poo mountain. That one at least looks a lot different, I feel, to the original image. The face, muscles, etc. feel more like he used a pose as reference. This is one thing that I never really got: At what point is photo referencing okay and at what point is it wrong? I'm not saying 'tracing' but more along the lines of, "I'm using a picture to base a rough figure/layout around, figure out lighting, fabric folds, etc. and now I'm putting the picture away and making something totally different off of it."
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Feb 4, 2014 06:51
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There was the kerfluffle over the traced painting used in House of M and the artist actually got in a bit of trouble for it. You'd think Disney would crack down on this poo poo.
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Feb 4, 2014 06:55
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JediTalentAgent posted:This is one thing that I never really got: At what point is photo referencing okay and at what point is it wrong? I'm not saying 'tracing' but more along the lines of, "I'm using a picture to base a rough figure/layout around, figure out lighting, fabric folds, etc. and now I'm putting the picture away and making something totally different off of it." It's pretty normal to refer to other things if you're trying to draw something that looks like that other thing, I really doubt anyone seriously has a problem with someone using photo references. Especially when it comes to anatomy, people think they know what human bodies look like and how they work, but without careful study of references you wind up with, well, terrible poo poo like Rob Liefeld's drawings.
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Feb 4, 2014 07:57
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Rhyno posted:There was the kerfluffle over the traced painting used in House of M and the artist actually got in a bit of trouble for it. You'd think Disney would crack down on this poo poo. Yeah, they should. http://robwrite.hubpages.com/hub/THE-LION-KING-Controversy-Did-Disney-Rip-off-Kimba-the-White-Lion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh84g8rC2oA
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Feb 4, 2014 09:08
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God drat it Disney.
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Feb 4, 2014 09:15
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Mister Roboto posted:Yeah, they should. Welp, another childhood dream crushed  I dig up a little on the case I mentioned before and well, http://www.animenewsnetwork.co.uk/news/2012-06-01/prism-yuri-manga-put-on-hold-due-to-similiarities-to-photos Japan takes really seriously these kind of things, I think than the guy didn't deserved to be poo poo on like that though.
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Feb 4, 2014 09:28
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Rhyno posted:There was the kerfluffle over the traced painting used in House of M and the artist actually got in a bit of trouble for it. You'd think Disney would crack down on this poo poo. Wasn't the whole thing with that less an issue that it was a traced photograph and more it was traced from a picture of the King of Spain and his office objected to the use. Waterhaul fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 09:37
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Mister Roboto posted:Yeah, they should. The amount of effort that went into these films is loving incredible, anyone calling the animators lazy for taking a few short cuts can eat a bag of dicks. The quality of animation in the rest of the films more than makes up for it.
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Feb 4, 2014 12:03
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Mister Roboto posted:Yeah, they should. Slippery Nipple kinda covered it, but those all look like they were from the original hand drawn cartoons. If some spergy grognard could only find five minutes of examples out of hundreds or close to thousands of minutes I hardly think it's an issue even worth addressing. Those were all hand drawn and took tremendous amounts of manhours to do, not to mention it was already their own property to begin with.
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Feb 4, 2014 13:34
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JediTalentAgent posted:That one at least looks a lot different, I feel, to the original image. The face, muscles, etc. feel more like he used a pose as reference. you can tell very quickly who puts in the effort to use references properly and who brazenly pastes in photos of celebrities, does a quick trace, and calls it artwork. you'd need some talent and effort to paint like Alex Ross but any rear end in a top hat with photoshop and a few minutes can be like Land.
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Feb 4, 2014 16:11
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Waterhaul posted:Wasn't the whole thing with that less an issue that it was a traced photograph and more it was traced from a picture of the King of Spain and his office objected to the use. Generally if you want to use someone's image as the basis for a genocidal terrorist you should at least ask first.
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Feb 4, 2014 16:17
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Kind of related but make sure you check out maybe the most important article BC has ever done http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/01/24/interview-with-mike-roshuk/
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Feb 4, 2014 16:24
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Jedit posted:It sold for $2200, and I'm not loving kidding you. I am insulted that a horror fan such as yourself didn't get that joke.
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Feb 4, 2014 16:49
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Mr Wind Up Bird posted:Kind of related but make sure you check out maybe the most important article BC has ever done "I like to look at porn, but also need to legitimize my looking at it so my wife doesn't complain."
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Feb 4, 2014 16:56
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Mr Wind Up Bird posted:Kind of related but make sure you check out maybe the most important article BC has ever done
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Feb 4, 2014 16:57
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Found this oddly-proportioned bathing beauty in Catwoman - Her Sister's Keeper #3:
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Feb 4, 2014 17:01
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Waterhaul posted:Wasn't the whole thing with that less an issue that it was a traced photograph and more it was traced from a picture of the King of Spain and his office objected to the use. Lobok posted:Generally if you want to use someone's image as the basis for a genocidal terrorist you should at least ask first. This even bled over to Marvel vs Capcom 3 / Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 where they had Magneto's House of M outfit for DLC and had to remove it due to litigation. Only a small number of people managed to get ahold of it and I don't believe there's any way for them to reclaim it if anything happened to their save / system.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:02
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Endless Mike posted:This is awful on so many levels. guy waits for his wife and kids to fall asleep and then looks at this poo poo https://www.google.ca/search?q=Luis...w=1920&bih=1101 and listens to tool.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:05
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I remember the Kimba/Simba thing years ago when it was still much more fresh in the anime fandom mind and I discussed it once with a teacher. I brought up the point that a lot of people felt Lion King was a rip-off of Kimba the White Lion and inadvertently described a few differences that I had heard about. One was that Kimba's parent(s?) were killed by hunters. They put me in my place, right quick, by stating, "Oh, so this 'Kimba' thing ripped off Bambi?"  Flesh Forge posted:It's pretty normal to refer to other things if you're trying to draw something that looks like that other thing, I really doubt anyone seriously has a problem with someone using photo references. Especially when it comes to anatomy, people think they know what human bodies look like and how they work, but without careful study of references you wind up with, well, terrible poo poo like Rob Liefeld's drawings. I had a book somewhere on drawing that said you shouldn't draw or paint something from any photo that you didn't take yourself or own the rights to. I also remember people in school who'd say that you were only 'copying' something if you looked at a picture of it and that it wasn't real drawing, just tracing.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:14
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Adam Warren reblogged a neat guide to using reference pictures on his tumblr that I think a lot of "professionals" might need to look at.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:25
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Drifter posted:Slippery Nipple kinda covered it, but those all look like they were from the original hand drawn cartoons. If some spergy grognard could only find five minutes of examples out of hundreds or close to thousands of minutes I hardly think it's an issue even worth addressing. Those were all hand drawn and took tremendous amounts of manhours to do, not to mention it was already their own property to begin with. Precisely. I'm willing to believe Disney steals story ideas but I'm pretty sure you can't plagiarise work that you own. It's not the same thing.
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Feb 4, 2014 17:44
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JediTalentAgent posted:This is one thing that I never really got: At what point is photo referencing okay and at what point is it wrong? I'm not saying 'tracing' but more along the lines of, "I'm using a picture to base a rough figure/layout around, figure out lighting, fabric folds, etc. and now I'm putting the picture away and making something totally different off of it." If you're learning how to draw, any and all photo references are 100% okay and the attitude that "everything I draw has to be entirely from my own imagination" is incredibly destructive to actually learning. It's pervasive among new artists and it's kind of infuriating when people reinforce it. When you're a professional artist though it's not so okay. Especially for a cover. Anatomy is hard to learn but there are rules and once you understand them, almost any pose, in any physique, is completely doable. People should be studying from examples for their entire life, but not copying from them for every pose. In regards to lighting and fabric and poo poo, lay that out in real life and take a picture- although that's something that, even in these traced examples, the artists manage to do themselves. Faces are a little different in these semi-photorealistic styles though, it's incredibly difficult to be able to make up realistic faces from your imagination with the level of detail there is in some of these comics. It's one of the reasons I really don't like that style. Koramei fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 17:44
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I know some artists work with figurines to get poses correct and see how something would look. I always thought though that there is (or should be) a cheat guide for artists working for the big 2 which says "x=character always looks like this".
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Feb 4, 2014 18:15
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Koramei posted:When you're a professional artist though it's not so okay. Especially for a cover. Anatomy is hard to learn but there are rules and once you understand them, almost any pose, in any physique, is completely doable. People should be studying from examples for their entire life, but not copying from them for every pose. In regards to lighting and fabric and poo poo, lay that out in real life and take a picture- although that's something that, even in these traced examples, the artists manage to do themselves. That's not true at all. Using photo references is completely acceptable—and even encouraged—both in and outside of the comic book industry. Even having a perfect understanding of human anatomy, photo references are useful for drawing realistic poses (knowing anatomy doesn't mean you know what people look like when they're parasailing or how hands are positioned when holding a gun) and for drawing figures at different angles (foreshortening is hard). That said, if you're using references extensively, it would probably be better to use your own photos or stock photos meant for reference, rather than movie stills or whatever. Photo references are also important for drawing backgrounds and objects. Most people can't draw the white house or a printing press completely from memory. As for faces, that's a bit trickier. There are definitely ethical—and probably legal—problems with using someone's likeness without their permission. Having a face inspired by an actor is fine but it probably shouldn't look too similar/recognizable. Whether or not you like Adam Hughes' art, here's a good example from him on how he uses photo references: http://adamhughes.deviantart.com/art/Imagine-FX-67-How-To-196343843 As for tracing, while that is a pretty tacky thing to do for an artist, I can understand the temptation to do that when you have to spew out a bunch of pages monthly. If you must trace, at least do that with your own photos and for the love of god, don't trace other people's art.
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Feb 4, 2014 19:57
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Adam Hughes is the greatest artist that has ever existed. God bless that man and I hope he lives forever and continues putting out awesome work. *sniff*
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Feb 4, 2014 20:41
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Gatts posted:Adam Hughes is the greatest artist that has ever existed. God bless that man and I hope he lives forever and continues putting out awesome work. *sniff* What.  Even if it's sarcasm...
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Feb 4, 2014 21:54
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Drifter posted:What. It's exaggerated but I do really like Adam Hughes's work.
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Feb 4, 2014 21:55
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Also a few artists use models (I assumed they are paid and not all porn-actresses found online) for certain references. I used to know a girl who posed for an artist doing some Wonder Woman art (I want to say Phil Jimenez but it's been a while since I had the conversation with her).
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Feb 4, 2014 22:13
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Everybody knows that Paolo Rivera does the best referencing.
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Feb 4, 2014 22:16
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Yeti Yeti Yeti posted:stuff You either misunderstood me or I worded it terribly 'cause you just said the exact same thing as me?  Study from references your entire life, but don't copy them.
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Feb 4, 2014 22:38
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Koramei posted:You either misunderstood me or I worded it terribly 'cause you just said the exact same thing as me? Oh, I thought you meant that photo references were only acceptable for those learning and that professionals shouldn't need to use references at all. I think the misunderstanding stems from different interpretations of what "copying" means. 
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Feb 4, 2014 22:43
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Waterhaul posted:Everybody knows that Paolo Rivera does the best referencing. These are incredible.
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Feb 4, 2014 22:47
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JediTalentAgent posted:I had a book somewhere on drawing that said you shouldn't draw or paint something from any photo that you didn't take yourself or own the rights to. I also remember people in school who'd say that you were only 'copying' something if you looked at a picture of it and that it wasn't real drawing, just tracing. That's absolutely true, in the sense that it would be a derivative work and could be a form of copyright violation - however there are gobs and gobs of sources of reference photos that are sold or given away with exactly this kind of legal exception, like 3d.sk and their massive library of anatomy pics. (3d.sk is really awesome by the way)
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Feb 4, 2014 23:31
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If you're going to thumb your nose at an artist in the comics business for light boxing photos, you're going to have a very small pool of talent to read from. With the way this business is constantly asking for higher and higher detail and accuracy from its artists that its basically a necessity if you want to get in under the deadline. I wouldn't put JG Jones in the same box as Greg Land just because of that cover. If he uses that photo over and over again, and in a context where its a bad choice, and then also swipes from other artists, then you'd have a point.
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Feb 5, 2014 05:22
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JediTalentAgent posted:I remember the Kimba/Simba thing years ago when it was still much more fresh in the anime fandom mind and I discussed it once with a teacher. I brought up the point that a lot of people felt Lion King was a rip-off of Kimba the White Lion and inadvertently described a few differences that I had heard about. One was that Kimba's parent(s?) were killed by hunters. That's silly, because the Kimba-Lion King references specifically point out the imagery, like the father lion in the clouds, the villainous family lion holding the hero at bay on the a cliff, and the climactic antlerbeast stampede. It's more than just plot points, it's actual, specific scenes. Mr Wind Up Bird posted:Kind of related but make sure you check out maybe the most important article BC has ever done I don't get this. He's obviously just using porn. Why is he being legitimized when it's so blatant? edit: Jesus Christ, this is some Deviantart/pornsite level stuff: http://www.mikeroshuk.com/the-scientist/ Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Feb 5, 2014 |
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Feb 5, 2014 05:50
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TwoPair posted:Please, Jones will have to do much, much worse to beat the king of poo poo mountain. See, this sort of example is what always bugs me during the conversations about people, especially Land, copying pictures. It seems like every single time it comes up, the people that want to show examples start getting themselves so psyched up to be right that they start getting further and further from the truth. Yes, in that first example those are obviously Sean Connery and Adrian Paul, but the pictures are clearly nothing like what was used for the "models", and Connery's pic might have not even come from The Rock for the tracing. And then the second picture, yeah it's a Randy Orton style pose, so what? You're not telling me anything unless you can find that picture, like the thread had done earlier with the Miracleman cover. And the examples get less and less clear/accurate. I once saw a site trying to catalogue Horn's tracings that eventually started getting pictures that looked nothing alike outside of the theme, or what was being depicted, like them saying he must have stolen the idea of a vampire holding an unconscious woman in a graveyard from a different comic image of the same idea from like a decade prior, instead of like, from movies made 80 years prior, as the two pictures were in completely different poses/angles of the same iconic yet generic image. I'm not saying that tracers aren't there, nor that Greg Horn isn't the most prolific, but when you start trying too hard you start diminishing your own argument, and it seems like most people that set out to make that argument want to work that hard. A similar thing often happens with people trying to show my how bad Rob Liefield's art is or something, and then they have to start pinpointing why this person's neck/back bending weird is bad and why when a different artist does it it's just comics. (Though Liefield totally can't draw feet. Ever.)
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Feb 5, 2014 05:59
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JediTalentAgent posted:I remember the Kimba/Simba thing years ago when it was still much more fresh in the anime fandom mind and I discussed it once with a teacher. I brought up the point that a lot of people felt Lion King was a rip-off of Kimba the White Lion and inadvertently described a few differences that I had heard about. One was that Kimba's parent(s?) were killed by hunters. Mister Roboto posted:That's silly, because the Kimba-Lion King references specifically point out the imagery, like the father lion in the clouds, the villainous family lion holding the hero at bay on the a cliff, and the climactic antlerbeast stampede. It's more than just plot points, it's actual, specific scenes. Yeah JediTalentAgent your teacher was totally full of poo poo and deserves a kick to the head. A quick google search yields a bunch of side by side comparison pictures that display that even though the Lion King isn't a direct ripoff or 1:1 translation of Kimba, there's absolutely no way that the people working on the Lion King weren't aware of it and cribbing from it. Choco1980 posted:See, this sort of example is what always bugs me during the conversations about people, especially Land, copying pictures. It seems like every single time it comes up, the people that want to show examples start getting themselves so psyched up to be right that they start getting further and further from the truth. Yes, in that first example those are obviously Sean Connery and Adrian Paul, but the pictures are clearly nothing like what was used for the "models", and Connery's pic might have not even come from The Rock for the tracing. And then the second picture, yeah it's a Randy Orton style pose, so what? You're not telling me anything unless you can find that picture, like the thread had done earlier with the Miracleman cover. You make good points. Honestly the two big things everyone should give a poo poo about when it comes to tracing: 1. Does it serve the story being told appropriately? (i.e: It's not just like Land putting porn and magazine poses in for every woman regardless of what their characters are supposed to be doing according to the script). This is why I personally think the Miracleman cover crosses the line because there's really no reason for the character to be giving a Randy Orton pose, ever. 2. Is the tracing discernibly different enough from the reference material to be considered on its own merits or it just an obvious trace? It doesn't need to be a total redraw of everything, but y'know, it needs to also clearly be it's own work of art when you put the reference picture next to it.
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Feb 5, 2014 06:21
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Choco1980 posted:See, this sort of example is what always bugs me during the conversations about people, especially Land, copying pictures. It seems like every single time it comes up, the people that want to show examples start getting themselves so psyched up to be right that they start getting further and further from the truth. Yes, in that first example those are obviously Sean Connery and Adrian Paul, but the pictures are clearly nothing like what was used for the "models", and Connery's pic might have not even come from The Rock for the tracing. And then the second picture, yeah it's a Randy Orton style pose, so what? You're not telling me anything unless you can find that picture, like the thread had done earlier with the Miracleman cover. And the examples get less and less clear/accurate. I once saw a site trying to catalogue Horn's tracings that eventually started getting pictures that looked nothing alike outside of the theme, or what was being depicted, like them saying he must have stolen the idea of a vampire holding an unconscious woman in a graveyard from a different comic image of the same idea from like a decade prior, instead of like, from movies made 80 years prior, as the two pictures were in completely different poses/angles of the same iconic yet generic image. I'm not saying that tracers aren't there, nor that Greg Horn isn't the most prolific, but when you start trying too hard you start diminishing your own argument, and it seems like most people that set out to make that argument want to work that hard. Granted, and those were just the first couple of images I grabbed off a GIS for "Greg Land traces". There are probably much better actual examples of him blatantly copying things. I think the ultimate problem with tracing (and the thing that I guess relates to the whole "how much referencing is too much referencing" discussion) is that it distracts from the comic you're reading. I mean, I know I'm managing to read and enjoy Mighty Avengers and Iron Man, two books that Land is doing art for, but there are plenty of people who have outright said that they cannot get over the art to read the books. And I can't blame them. poo poo like this:  this is from an old Uncanny X-Men but whatever you get my point completely takes you out of the story, regardless of whether you recognize the source.
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