|
The one real concern that I have, systemically, is whether they have built in a way to mechanically represent leading/influencing large groups of people, in a non-combat sense. This was brought up in an earlier incarnation of the thread, and the writer commenting didn't seem to see it as important for Bureaucracy to have the same mechanical weight as stuff like combat skills. Could we get a bit a of view into how you guys are designing that bit, stephenls?
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 23:36 |
|
|
Kenlon posted:Could we get a bit a of view into how you guys are designing that bit, stephenls? No. The answer is no. We can have a view into the following things:
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:17
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:No. The answer is no. We can have a view into the following things: In exchange, we offer them 
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:19
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:No. The answer is no. We can have a view into the following things: Hey, let's give him a chance to show differently, on a subject that doesn't have a big argument wrapped around it already (like the Abyssal preview stuff or Lunar baby eating.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:19
|
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:Or have a skill for just punching someone. You mean Martial Arts? I actually did send a private message on the White Wolf forums when Morke made the initial call for playtesters and didn't get in. If they still want playtesters, hey, I'm first in line, but I figured they were cool on that front.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:24
|
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:In exchange, we offer them What do you think we owe them, exactly?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:24
|
|
|
Kenlon posted:The one real concern that I have, systemically, is whether they have built in a way to mechanically represent leading/influencing large groups of people, in a non-combat sense. This was brought up in an earlier incarnation of the thread, and the writer commenting didn't seem to see it as important for Bureaucracy to have the same mechanical weight as stuff like combat skills. We want a system where "You, in a room, discussing policy with your subordinates" is as much an interesting conflict as "You, on the battlefield." This is difficult to do if the system abstracts away the dealing-with-subordinates and just lets you choose what your organization is doing. I love Reign, and I ranted to John at length about how he needs to check out Reign (and he did), but ultimately our concern with systems like that is Tywin Lannister doesn't get to deploy Cersi, Jamie, Tyrion, and the Mountain as assets and just watch as they accomplish his goals remotely. When the game gets to the point where it's about you at the head of an organization, it needs to be about you at the head of an organization, not you using the organization as one tool among many to accomplish goals unrelated to that organization. We recognize this needs to be balanced against "There's rules for being the head of an org just so that you and the ST are on the same page." Like, nobody engages in massed battle when there's no mass combat rules because they have no idea if the things they expect to work are anywhere near the things the ST expects to work, and nobody wants to do the bureaucratic equivalent of "I run along the wall and slash at that dude with my sword from above (this is totally gonna be an awesome stunt)!" and then be faced with the bureaucratic equivalent of "Roll Dex + Athletics, difficulty 3, oh, you failed, you fall on your rear end, he gets a free attack." Stephenls fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Feb 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:27
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:You mean Martial Arts? I just said there was a- You know, I think I know the reason why so many people keep saying you're autistic and I don't want to keep dancing around the NDA I didn't sign. Attorney at Funk posted:What do you think we owe them, exactly? I think just stopping Ferrinus's posts is probably a humane thing to do in general. I mean, they could probably eat babies IRL and that would still be a pretty swell thing to do on our part.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:29
|
|
|
Stephenls posted:We want a system where "You, in a room, discussing policy with your subordinates" is as much an interesting conflict as "You, on the battlefield." This is difficult to do if the system abstracts away the dealing-with-subordinates and just lets you choose what your organization is doing. I love Reign, and I ranted to John at length about how he needs to check out Reign (and he did), but ultimately our concern with systems like that is Tywin Lannister doesn't get to deploy Cersi, Jamie, Tyrion, and the Mountain as assets and just watch as they accomplish his goals remotely. When the game gets to the point where it's about you at the head of an organization, it needs to be about you at the head of an organization, not you using the organization as one tool among many to accomplish goals unrelated to that organization. Okay, this is excellent. The player deals directly with giving orders, and then there's a system behind it for working out the results in practice? Is that about right?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:32
|
|
|
Kenlon posted:Okay, this is excellent. The player deals directly with giving orders, and then there's a system behind it for working out the results in practice? Is that about right? In some contexts.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:34
|
|
|
Yeah let me say that way of handling leadership in general sounds pretty solid. From the example it sounds like it at least contemplates a difference between charismatic and bureaucratic styles of management.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:37
|
|
|
Long fiddly combat is ok. I can train my players to make quick decisions and teach then the system so they know what to do before their turn comes up. I'll even have the next person in initiative order getting their stunt ready while the currently active player is resolving their dice rolls. I thought we were getting away from the BP/XP and instead were using Merits from NWOD?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:37
|
|
|
Does Exalted 3.0 envision, for instance, a particular number of scenes/encounters in an "average" play session?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:41
|
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:I just said there was a- -n alternative, yes. Now, given that we simply can't have Brawl (or "Unarmed" or whatever) on the Ability list because, after all, that's how it was in 1e and the 3e team just hates looking to 1e for inspiration, that could mean: * a sidebar telling you that just because it says "Martial Arts" and just because the martial arts are a specifically defined setting element that doesn't mean your character is performing martial arts just because they have dots in the Martial Arts skill * the option to use Melee or Resistance or something to launch an unarmed attack (this is weird, especially since the devs have specifically said Melee shouldnt be able to do that or you'd be putting attack skills outside the Dawn list) * the option to use Str + Dex or something to launch a totally unskilled/instinctive attack, i.e. the "Brawl" dicepool the listed t-rex uses is based on its attributes alone (but what Ability do Brawl charms use? Why is there no equivalent option for socialization or weapon use? If there is an equivalent option, why is the fundamentally-simple "add your attribute and your skill" system getting this level of skilled/unskilled complexity at all?) * a merit * some other thing These are all goofy and awkward compared to just having a Brawl skill, like we used to before 2nd edition. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Feb 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:44
|
|
|
The downsides of long combat are basically "how much of the combat time am I just watching other people play" (ie, how much time is there from the end of my turn to the start of my next turn) and "how much of the combat time is dramatically meaningful" (ie, how much of the fight is getting into position to do things, how much of the fight is doing things, and how much of the fight is, effectively mopup). These aren't intractable problems, though. They're solvable to some extent at the table and to a large extent at the design level. I don't mind combat that takes a while to resolve as long as I don't spend a significant chunk of absolute time as a spectator and as long as most or all of that combat time is narratively valuable. Combat complexity I'm more persnickety about, but my tolerance is fairly high here too as long as my options coalesce into coherent game plans rather than a bag of tricks and circumstance modifiers I need to keep in the back of my head at all times.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:44
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:These are all goofy and awkward compared to just having a Brawl skill, like we used to before 2nd edition. EMPHATICALLY AGREED. GOD drat YOU, FERRINUS.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:46
|
|
|
Frankly I want fiddly combat and other systems and I'm willing to take length as a trade-off. If there aren't any systems to interact with that create meaningful decisions then I'd rather just see one roll or GM fiat because why bother? In regards to the lack of transparency, I think it's funny that they actually got good mechanical feedback that led to positive change with one of the previews (solar xp, I think). Instead both sides are hung up on the Abyssal style reaction instead, which had nothing to do with the system. If the playtesters are providing that critical feedback now I guess that's cool but it would be nice to see a little more in the previews. My group wanted to be in on the playtest but apparently playing continuously since release and having a thorough understanding of the system's evolution didn't qualify us.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:52
|
|
|
ALso since it has come up, SA doesn't give a poo poo about your NDA nor am I in any position to enforce it nor am I in any position to judge what your NDA covers. It is the assumption whatever you post you have the full rights to post unless it is very clear you do not, and that is about it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:52
|
|
|
Unrelated to this particular discussion, but it bothers me a little that they seem to be sticking with the same '25 abilities, 9 attributes' format that 2e and 1e used. The start of a new edition in the year of our lord 2014 could not be a more perfect time to go 'hey, this is unnecessarily complicated, let's use our complete creative control of this project to streamline it!' And then maybe they wouldn't have to write 25 entire charm trees? Because, to me, it seems like writing 25 complete charm trees (not counting martial arts) is a good way to make 100% sure that you will have redundant, confusing, useless or broken charms because once you get up to like 500 individually written charms for one splat alone it's hard to quality check them. And if you're going to then do that for Abyssals, Infernals, Sidereals and Dragonblooded and all those other new ones, as well as Attribute-based charmsets for robots and Lunars, it's almost inevitable that a lot of them are going to fall into the 'does this Solar charm but not as effective' trap. I dunno, I mean obviously it's set in stone at this point, but it bothers me because it's such a waste. Streamlining would have been easier and would have freed up more time to do other things.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:59
|
|
|
Winson_Paine posted:ALso since it has come up, SA doesn't give a poo poo about your NDA nor am I in any position to enforce it nor am I in any position to judge what your NDA covers. It is the assumption whatever you post you have the full rights to post unless it is very clear you do not, and that is about it. I don't expect otherwise. RPGnet mod, remember—I don't think we censor leaks over there, either.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:05
|
|
|
Amidiri posted:Unrelated to this particular discussion, but it bothers me a little that they seem to be sticking with the same '25 abilities, 9 attributes' format that 2e and 1e used. The start of a new edition in the year of our lord 2014 could not be a more perfect time to go 'hey, this is unnecessarily complicated, let's use our complete creative control of this project to streamline it!' I get the sense that that particular kind of complexity is seen as a virtue of the system, both from a player-perspective and because it creates a lot more points of articulation to hang superpowers off of.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:11
|
|
|
Stephenls posted:I don't expect otherwise. RPGnet mod, remember—I don't think we censor leaks over there, either. In my defense, I don't think anyone will get it even if they outright break the NDA  Besides which Holden already mentioned Solar Brawl on another forum, describing it as, and I quote, "a cross between Kurt Angle and the Hulk on Viagra"
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:18
|
|
|
Oh I don't know if 25 charm trees is really Too Many Charms to possibly execute. D&D4E PHB1 had about 100-150 powers per class spread over 30 levels, right? And those were almost entirely strictly combat powers.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:21
|
|
|
They've mentioned Solar Brawl before, but in conjunction with vague comments about getting to treat your Martial Arts score as a Brawl score instead, or some things having Martial Arts while others had Brawl, or something, all the while dismissing the possibility of Martial Arts not being one of the twenty five universal Abilities.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:22
|
|
|
Maybe Martial Arts is a noncombat Zenith tree ability or something leaving Brawl in Dawn. MA only impact your ability to correctly perform kata, align chi, and perform other "internal" martial arts actions. What even is the public status of this right now?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:27
|
|
|
Stephenls posted:I don't expect otherwise. RPGnet mod, remember—I don't think we censor leaks over there, either. Yeah I figured you were all good in the hood, but there are some posters here who are very concerned with the data integrity of White Wolf in general and their Exalted brand in particular. It was mostly directed at those who are so affected to reassure them that SA in general does not care and I in the specific would encourage those who have concerns on that account to take a flying gently caress at a rolling doughnut, to take a flying gently caress at the mooooooooooooooooooooooooon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:30
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:They've mentioned Solar Brawl before, but in conjunction with vague comments about getting to treat your Martial Arts score as a Brawl score instead, or some things having Martial Arts while others had Brawl, or something, all the while dismissing the possibility of Martial Arts not being one of the twenty five universal Abilities. I will never, ever state it outright for you now.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:30
|
|
|
Well, there is a difference between "fiddley" and "10 step combat resolution." Exalted should have some crunchiness, it's always been a crunchy system and expecting it to be like, a single-roll system (like FATE) would be really weird. But if you guys are dedicated to not showing anybody anything at all until the book comes out, sometime in the next 5 months, (If we're lucky! Maybe it's going to be our 2014 Christmas present?) what is the point of even having a discussion about it anymore? This is absolute kiddy gloves treatment compared to things anything SA doesn't actually like, man. This thread is full of people who are worried and disheartened, because we haven't seen anything and we won't see anything. And yes, giving you 100$ (or whatever else we did on the KS) does give us a little bit of a feeling of entitlement, because we funded this project. And when you guys have given us a scrap of info we've given good honest feedback on it, like with Solar EXP. We aren't here just to tear down the game. When we feel like it deserves tearing down (See: Lover Charms) we absolutely will, but I hope to loving God that we wouldn't have to do that for the Solar charmset. I've said this before, but one charm preview a week, using the charmsets that are already completed, and putting a big fat "THIS IS BETA, SUBJECT TO CHANGE" warning sticker on them, would go a long way towards engendering trust that you haven't just run off to Mexico and are snorting coke off hookers with the KS money. "We finished Social charms today!" Without a single example of a social charm, is not useful or interesting and we have to take your word for it because it's sure easy to say that! Having some of the beta-players out themselves has made me feel a bit better, I guess, since apparently SOMEONE is looking at this thing. I mean I've tried to be as nice as I can about the delays and the lack of information, I really have, but eventually frustration becomes a more prominent feeling than excitement, and then I just give up. Because it's not worth getting upset OR excited about something that doesn't exist.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:37
|
|
|
This was a few pages ago, but where did that 300 play testing groups number come from? That would be at least 500 play testers. With those numbers I'm surprised the play testing material hasn't leaked.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:15
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:Here's the thing: as far as I can tell, answering for 2e's sins is the only concrete, fully elaborated selling point you've given us. What sold my playgroup on third edition (and then the way they sold it to me) were your really cogent articulations of the problems you were aiming to solve, and your track record of trying to solve them. Like, that's the devs' resume here: being the guys who dragged Exalted out of the nadir it experienced in its second edition. Until you put an actual edition out, you're stuck in 2e's long, dark, rapey shadow, and you realized that from the beginning. You were drawing from the same well as the people who called you the second coming of Infernals Chapter 1. And that well, obviously, is poisoned. One of the things that really sold me on third edition was Stephenls' involvement. I can remember a period of two years during which the line was going full gonzo and he was the only person with any involvement in Exalted who spoke out against it and clearly articulated why it was a problem. Many of those arguments were vindicated by the developer commentary after the reveal of the new edition, particularly when it came to the direction of the Yozis. I appreciate the work that Holden and Morke have done, but although they've put out some really good work in Glories and Masters of Jade I've also had issues with the direction and execution of some of their material—the sun transforming into a giant mecha, hilariously broken content in Ink Monkeys—and with their ability to take criticism for it. I don't think the latter needs elaboration. They're talented writers, but I don't trust their judgment that far. So, yeah, thanks for engaging on stuff like Raksi. That means a lot to me.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:19
|
|
|
I like Third Edition.
DeathmatchFM fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jul 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:20
|
|
|
NIV3K posted:This was a few pages ago, but where did that 300 play testing groups number come from? That would be at least 500 play testers. With those numbers I'm surprised the play testing material hasn't leaked. Yeah, that was a screw-up on my part. There are 365 play-testers total.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:27
|
|
|
Deathmatch? That was amazing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:28
|
|
|
DeathmatchFM posted:How often is it that I actually show up on the Exalted community to make a comment anymore? Let me talk about Third Edition. Who are you and why did you barf nine paragraphs of inept ad copy at us
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:30
|
|
|
DeathmatchFM posted:How often is it that I actually show up on the Exalted community to make a comment anymore? It would be okay if it was less often, because that was a terrible post. What was the point of all those tortured metaphors?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:33
|
|
|
DeathmatchFM posted:I see a lot of people griping about mechanics, and it just needs to stop. No.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:35
|
|
|
DeathmatchFM posted:How often is it that I actually show up on the Exalted community to make a comment anymore? Let me talk about Third Edition. That seemed like a whole lot of words to say "if you're a grognard and hate change, you will not like 3E. Trouble is I am really not sure who you're responding to, because "I don't want anything to change from 1E/2E" is something like the polar opposite of any post that has ever been made in this or preceding threads.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:35
|
|
|
I want 3e to be a significant change from the previous two editions while still being recognizably part of that lineage. I am less certain on whether I want it to be a virtual reality simulator that is not the Xbox One to 2nd edition's Xbox 360 and also it can fly and has thirty swords and will try to kill you with the most florid of forum posts.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:39
|
|
|
Sadly I can't talk detail about how mechanics work, or give any specific examples. I can only do is dance like a little birdie around the issues. I mean, even if I said that Exalted Third Edition got rid of all dice rolling in favor of flipping coins, it wouldn't make sense unless there was some context behind it. Exalted Third Edition is a great setting that draws on your old loves, but will ultimately help you find new loves too. It's an epic world designed to evoke imaginative storytelling where you have fun times playing make-believe with your superheroes. The mechanics of the game literally just enhance your ability to do that. Hey if you decided to make up your mind about this game before you've seen anything about it, then I'm not going to change your mind. What I can say is that if you are excited for Third Edition, your excitement is well placed and you won't be disappointed. If you're on the fence, then all I can say is that this that Mørke will deliver, but it won't be done with a forum post. It's going to be done with a quality product, so be patient and see what it has to offer.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 23:36 |
|
|
Mikan posted:I want 3e to be a significant change from the previous two editions while still being recognizably part of that lineage. I am less certain on whether I want it to be a virtual reality simulator that is not the Xbox One to 2nd edition's Xbox 360 and also it can fly and has thirty swords and will try to kill you with the most florid of forum posts. I've completely forgotten what I want out of Exalted. What I want now is an apology from DeathMatchFM, and to change my shirt.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:40
|
|