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Attorney at Funk posted:Plus we can try to infer things by asking you leading questions! Ahahahah I haven't actually played an RPG in a decade! (Kill me.)
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Feb 5, 2014 23:24
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BryanChavez posted:It'd help if you packaged it up for us in an increasingly-painful holiday metaphor. The exalted thread is like it's Ramadan and you can't eat during daylight hours and someone brings you a copy of "Everlasting: Book of the Undying," but not the whole book, just the intro section where it spells out that this isn't about a game it's about a life-changing story experience that will utterly upend your spirituality and cause your mind to expand when you realize the campbellian reality in which we dwell, and you are like what about the mechanics and then he says "Don't worry, The Tower and The Fool are different cards" also I like the beastman changes.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:25
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Stephenls posted:Ahahahah I haven't actually played an RPG in a decade! Aw, man. That sucks. They're pretty fun.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:25
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Attorney at Funk posted:Aw, man. That sucks. They're pretty fun. I know, they're great. I remember. No joke, though, I bought a printer the other day, and I mentioned it to Holden, and he said "Print character sheets, do not play an RPG for ten years" and I went "Yep, that's what I did last time!" I am everything Malcolm Sheppard despises in game dev. It's why I stick to copyediting, being a sounding board for ideas, and the occasional thousand words of setting description for a part of the setting that's already been worked out and just needs a deft explanation.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:28
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Mormon Star Wars posted:The exalted thread is like it's Ramadan and you can't eat during daylight hours and someone brings you a copy of "Everlasting: Book of the Undying," but not the whole book, just the intro section where it spells out that this isn't about a game it's about a life-changing story experience that will utterly upend your spirituality and cause your mind to expand when you realize the campbellian reality in which we dwell, and you are like what about the mechanics and then he says "Don't worry, The Tower and The Fool are different cards" I liked the lizard ones better when they were called Dragon Kings. But fluff is fluff, and chances are I'll outright ignore all of Ex3's and utilize whatever mechanics I feel are worth merit.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:29
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No if this thread is a holiday of any kind it is loving Purim because it makes me want to drink until I can't tell Harmonious Jade from Swan.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:30
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Mormon Star Wars posted:The exalted thread is like it's Ramadan and you can't eat during daylight hours and someone brings you a copy of "Everlasting: Book of the Undying," but not the whole book, just the intro section where it spells out that this isn't about a game it's about a life-changing story experience that will utterly upend your spirituality and cause your mind to expand when you realize the campbellian reality in which we dwell, and you are like what about the mechanics and then he says "Don't worry, The Tower and The Fool are different cards" *applause* (That joke is hilarious and pretty apropos.) Mormon Star Wars posted:also I like the beastman changes. Thanks!
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Feb 5, 2014 23:32
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Stephenls posted:I have seen this sort of pushback on literally every single R-rated element in the game at one point or another. Everything is someone's One Thing That's Over The Line. We can listen to all of it, some of it, or none of it, and if we listen to some of it, someone is going to be the person who doesn't get listened to, and that person is always going to think that if we just listened to everyone else we're listening to plus them, the game would be improved. But if we listen to everyone the game goes PG-13. Or maybe you should just question the "maturity" of the elements you include and whether or not they actually serve a thematic or narrative purpose. If they don't, or if they serve a tenuous one at best, there's a good chance they might be gratuitous bullshit. Stephenls posted:
Say this out loud in front of a mirror. No really, this is a dumb plan which accomplishes nothing of note except to justify the inclusion of eating babies. I'm reminded of super roundabout justifications of no guys, really, this female character has an in depth background and psychology which uniquely justifies the chainmail bikini.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:35
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Attorney at Funk posted:The Christmas metaphor is doubly hilarious because, get this: everyone knows when Christmas is tatankatonk posted:Exalted 3E is like a box of chocolates, if the guy behind the counter at See's refused to tell you what was in the box when you asked, and then got really mad at you for asking??
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Feb 5, 2014 23:38
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Bedlamdan posted:Jesus, just shut up. See? I told you, an inelegant approximation of the thing I said. Do Dawns have six favored abilities? Is there instead a big _____ on your character sheet where you write either Brawl or MA? Is War gone? Basically any of those are pointlessly weird. Are there martial arts that use Brawl? I bet there aren't, even though there are martial arts that use melee. But why? If I want to mix Solar katana-ship with MA katana-ship I need only one skill, but if I want to mix Solar punching with MA punching I need two different and largely redundant ones? It's just clumsy, and for no reason but stubbornness and inertia.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:40
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Captain Oblivious posted:Or maybe you should just question the "maturity" of the elements you include and whether or not they actually serve a thematic or narrative purpose. If they don't, or if they serve a tenuous one at best, there's a good chance they might be gratuitous bullshit. I keep saying this: Just because we're including something that needs a "Mature Content" warning label by the standards of the CD and DVD racks at HMV, that doesn't mean we're including it because we want to be mature. People keep accusing us of this, over and over: "It's too bad you're including all this gratuitous bullshit just to be mature, when you can't see it's not mature at all!" No. We see it's not mature. Nothing that earns a mature label at HMV is actually mature. We're not including it to be mature. We're including it because some degree of gratuitous bullshit is fun. What degree is debatable, of course; we think carefully about it, but even after that all that thought, we are probably going to come to a different conclusion about which bits are just enough and which bits are too much than you would. That we're including something you wouldn't doesn't mean we put no thought into it.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:40
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Zereth posted:Paying money for a product to be delivered to yourself is not a loving christmas present why does this insane metaphor keep coming up what the gently caress. Yeah, this is a little weird. Comparing a product that many of us have paid actual money to help create to a Christmas present, which is given for free, seems like a roundabout way of snubbing people's legitimate concerns. Treat it like a product that's being developed instead, because that's what it is.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:41
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DeathmatchFM posted:Sadly I can't talk detail about how mechanics work, or give any specific examples. I can only do is dance like a little birdie around the issues. I mean, even if I said that Exalted Third Edition got rid of all dice rolling in favor of flipping coins, it wouldn't make sense unless there was some context behind it. In other words, "I have nothing new of value to say." Thanks for your contribution.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:42
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Hey Stephen, get me into the playtest and play with my group on IRC or something.DeathmatchFM posted:I can answer this. Whether it should have been said depends on your priorities. If all you care about is maximizing positive exposure for the Exalted(tm) brand, then certainly you want to spout a pleasantly diffuse fog about digging multiple holes at once or whatever. If you want Exalted to actually be good, you want to air out the writers' nostalgia for lovely ancient chargen mechanics as early as possible so that the community can register its displeasure and, god willing, save Exalted from the terrible fate such mechanics threaten it with. Imagine if we'd never seen the original Infernals preview!
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Feb 5, 2014 23:48
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Stephenls posted:Since I can't disclose, all I'm here to do is try to prevent sceptics from becoming haters, and engage in what commentary I can, like thoughts on Raksi and the conceptual origins of Ixcoatli. With Raksi-talk in mind, it would be nice to know if an appropriately critical eye is being turned to other major npcs who're being kept on for 3e. Can we hear about another iconic figure you like from the established lore, and how you feel they've been done well or wrong over the history of the line?
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Feb 5, 2014 23:48
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Stephenls posted:We're including it because some degree of gratuitous bullshit is fun. What degree is debatable, of course; we think carefully about it, but even after that all that thought, we are probably going to come to a different conclusion about which bits are just enough and which bits are too much than you would. That we're including something you wouldn't doesn't mean we put no thought into it. I hope this is a misunderstanding about what constitutes gratuitous bullshit, because I know I consider things like 'sexualized violence for any reason', 'extreme spousal abuse to Prove a Narrative Point' and 'pointless cannibalism and bestiality for shock value' way up there on the gratuitous bullshit scale. And I don't consider those a fun or good thing at all, especially not to put in a game. Like, maybe when you say 'gratuitous bullshit' you mean things like zombie swarms or drawn-out action scenes or something, because otherwise, 'some degree of that is fun' is alarming to hear.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:53
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Stephenls posted:I keep saying this: Just because we're including something that needs a "Mature Content" warning label by the standards of the CD and DVD racks at HMV, that doesn't mean we're including it because we want to be mature. People keep accusing us of this, over and over: "It's too bad you're including all this gratuitous bullshit just to be mature, when you can't see it's not mature at all!" So what you actually want is to both have your cake and eat it: a setting where something is presented as meaningful, but is presented next to gratuitous bullshit (or even within the same character or event), and may the two live in harmony ever after. It doesn't work. Next to any kind of attempt at maturity, gratuitous bullshit comes off as juvenile attempts to be edgy. Next to gratuitous bullshit, attempts at maturity come off as corny or insincere attempts to justify said bullshit. Trying to do both within the same context doesn't work and just creates a dissonant mess. Pick a tone for each situation and stick with it.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:55
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Bedlamdan posted:No it sounds like you need to. Look, here you go. Martial Arts and Brawl are separate abilities with dots apportioned separately. This isn't exactly true. They haven't actually decided on anything yet, so until something is nailed down take it with a grain of salt.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:57
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NIV3K posted:This isn't exactly true. They haven't actually decided on anything yet, so until something is nailed down take it with a grain of salt. True, they did say that it was just a temporary placeholder while they wait on a final decision or something.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:58
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I wanted to share a conversation some friends of mine had w/r/t the whole Raksi thing if she is going to be brought up again. Would rather it be in their words rather than a bad summary on my part.quote:[19:29] <L> Nuance is lost on them.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:00
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Amidiri posted:I hope this is a misunderstanding about what constitutes gratuitous bullshit, because I know I consider things like 'sexualized violence for any reason', 'extreme spousal abuse to Prove a Narrative Point' and 'pointless cannibalism and bestiality for shock value' way up there on the gratuitous bullshit scale. And I don't consider those a fun or good thing at all, especially not to put in a game. Hey look, someone who skims the thread. If you actually were keeping up, then you would know that StephenLS has said that they aren't doing 'sexualized violence for any reason' and he is coming around on the 'pointless cannibalism and beastiality for shock value'. I believe his comments with regards to 'extreme spousal abuse to Prove a Narrative Point' is that it is being retracted and returned to its 1E narrative state and not being brought up again (correct me if I'm wrong). Maybe try engaging in a conversation in the mature fashion that you seem to desire. This isn't me defending anything awful from Exalted's sordid closet of skeletons. Just calling you out on being a dick. NIV3K fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Feb 6, 2014 |
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Feb 6, 2014 00:01
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Stephenls posted:No. We see it's not mature. Nothing that earns a mature label at HMV is actually mature. We're not including it to be mature. What's painful is that a lot of the things in Exalted really are mature and thought-provoking. It's just bizarre that we go from discussing the systemic incentives that drive the Scarlet Empire's oppression and exploitation of the heart of the world and into "deep question: are you willing to gently caress animals to use some of your powers? No? What about turning into animals and loving people? That's totally different. Your friends are doing it you know." Lymond fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Feb 6, 2014 |
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Feb 6, 2014 00:04
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NIV3K posted:Hey look, someone who skims the thread. If you actually were keeping up, then you would know that StephenLS has said that they aren't doing 'sexualized violence for any reason' and he is coming around on the 'pointless cannibalism and beastiality for shock value'. I believe his comments with regards to 'extreme spousal abuse to Prove a Narrative Point' is that it is being retracted and returned to its 1E narrative state and not being commented on further. Maybe try engaging in a conversation in the mature fashion that you seem to desire. Well, he said they wouldn't be doing sexualized violence for titillation, which is different. I'm not flinging accusations around, though, just asking for clarification. My worry was about 'some amount of gratuitous bullshit is fun' in reply to a post where what was being referred to as 'gratuitous bullshit' actually was those things exactly...?
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Feb 6, 2014 00:05
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Stephenls posted:I keep saying this: Just because we're including something that needs a "Mature Content" warning label by the standards of the CD and DVD racks at HMV, that doesn't mean we're including it because we want to be mature. People keep accusing us of this, over and over: "It's too bad you're including all this gratuitous bullshit just to be mature, when you can't see it's not mature at all!" Maybe people keep accusing you of it because they feel like you're consistently missing the point and you haven't actually addressed their concerns? I mean it seems like you're holding up this argument which no one is making when you've got people like Rulebook Heavily up there explaining exactly what their problem is. And holy poo poo if you want torturous metaphor here's what I got when I asked about an open playtest on the Onyx Path forums: quote:Let me tell you a story about a guy called Peter Parker.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:06
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Yeah as far as I'm concerned the Raksi thing is resolved? She's definitely a crazy decadent cannibal queen, a particular and myopic focus on, specifically, eating babies is a goofy 2E-ism that doesn't need any kind of extended textual examination or justification.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:07
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah as far as I'm concerned the Raksi thing is resolved? She's definitely a crazy decadent cannibal queen, a particular and myopic focus on, specifically, eating babies is a goofy 2E-ism that doesn't need any kind of extended textual examination or justification. She ate babies in 1e too, brah.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:11
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A_Raving_Loon posted:With Raksi-talk in mind, it would be nice to know if an appropriately critical eye is being turned to other major npcs who're being kept on for 3e. Well, I think Desus was great at the beginning when he was like a one-off "I see what you did there" Odysseus reference, and got progressively worse the more and more setting was tied to him. It became incestuous and started shrinking the setting even before we get to the appropriateness or inappropriateness of the way he developed. Lillun was neat when she was just The Daughter Who Followed The Empress Into The Imperial Manse And Never Came Back Out. Ma-Ha-Suchi was better as a goat than as a wolf. Now, I follow the Exalted tag on tumblr, and I do not hold Tumblr in as much contempt as I think a lot of the people around here do. Headcanons involving the Wolf With Red Roses are something they really enjoy over there, and I can see their appeal in that frame of reference. But I think he was more useful and more consistent with the ideal tone of the game before his secret, tragic history as a seductive lothlario tragically scarred by exile into the Wyld was established. I actually still like I AM from DotFA because of course I would because I wrote him, but Eyem was cooler in Aspect Book: Air, because he was just a cautionary tale and one example of thinking automatons among presumably many, rather than a thing everyone started assuming was The Origin Of All Thinking Automatons In The Setting. THe general, running theme here, even before you get into whether the ideas were expanded well, is that the ideas were more interesting before they were expanded. It's vastly easier to write 1k intriguing words about a topic than expand that into 10k... but at the same time, as a writer the temptation is always going to be to expand on what the audience has already said they're intrigued by, because that feels easier than coming up with something new. The urge is to give people what they're asking for. (And this is where the Christmas present metaphor comes from, actually -- I have repeated this so many times in dev email chains. When I was a kid my parents never got me the presents I asked for; they paid attention to what I asked for, but triangulated from there to something I wasn't expecting but which fit my interests well enough to delight me. Part of that delight came from getting something from people who knew me better than I knew myself, and part came from the surprise. As a rule, best practice is not to give people what they're asking for, but instead give them what they didn't know they always wanted.) We'll be making a concerted effort this time not to make everything trace back to Snake Eyes' brother's and Cobra Commander's car accident, is what I'm saying.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:13
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Strength of Many posted:She ate babies in 1e too, brah. Yes, because she was an insane cannibal sorceress. It wasn't like, her ultimate double reverse poker gambit. In fact the text Stephenls paraphrased a few pages back just said Raksi hungered for youths, not literal infants. I didn't even associate eating TEENS with Raksi until I saw discussion of her habits on the internet years later, and of course said discussions involved spinning grand narratives about how clever Raksi's baby-eating was.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:18
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Stephenls posted:As a rule, best practice is not to give people what they're asking for, but instead give them what they didn't know they always wanted. This would work better if you were Granny Weatherwax, I suspect.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:19
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Stephenls posted:As a rule, best practice is not to give people what they're asking for, but instead give them what they didn't know they always wanted.) NO. YOU ARE BEING PAID. TO PRODUCE A PRODUCT. THE BEST PRACTICE IS TO GIVE PEOPLE EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE ASKING FOR BECAUSE THEY'RE PAYING YOU MONEY TO GIVE THEM THAT.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:21
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Hey, hey, everyone, what's worse than finding a worm in your baby? HALF a w- where's everyone going?
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Feb 6, 2014 00:22
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Strength of Many posted:NO. Like, I'm not gonna defend the 'because Holden likes it' vs 'you didn't know you wanted it but you do!' chain because it writes its own jokes, but...
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Feb 6, 2014 00:23
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Chaotic Neutral posted:Haha, no, this is how we get rape ghosts. Hey man, supply and demand. In all seriousness though I understand that you can be, have to be, selective about what content you go forward with. Some degree of ignoring your consumers is required to get anything done. HOWEVER, transparency is also required, otherwise you're alienating said consumers. And imo it sounds like they are dogshit awful at prioritizing anything remotely useful or productive to its development. Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Feb 6, 2014 |
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Feb 6, 2014 00:24
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Strength of Many posted:NO. Yeaaaah, no, don't give the Exalted forums what they want. Possibly give them what they deserve. Let me dream.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:25
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Winson_Paine posted:This would work better if you were Granny Weatherwax, I suspect. Well, yeah, the other side of that is, no half marks for effort. The end product actually does have to be something people like. But the number of people who wanted Compass: Autochthonia to be an examination of dystopian oppression and the grim darkness of far future is non-trivial. They seemed pretty happy when we didn't give them that.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:26
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Yeaaaah, no, don't give the Exalted forums what they want. Possibly give them what they deserve. Let me dream.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:26
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Stephenls posted:Well, yeah, the other side of that is, no half marks for effort. The end product actually does have to be something people like. I wanted it to be pages and pages of thanking me for my contributions to the first Alchemicals book, with alternating pages apologizing that I wasn't working on this one. Give the customer, me, what I want. You can correct this in the third edition.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:28
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Chaotic Neutral posted:Wouldn't that just be a copy of FATAL: Exalted Edition? Not want AND deserve! 
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Feb 6, 2014 00:29
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Yeaaaah, no, don't give the Exalted forums what they want. Possibly give them what they deserve. Let me dream. I would, if only out of spite. Let it come crashing down around their ears. And hopefully get the line discontinued or sold to someone more competent to revitalize the IP.
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Feb 6, 2014 00:29
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(Mengele didn't do all his awful crap for resarch's sake. His methodology was horrible and I distinctly remember reading that his documentation was atrocious -- the idea that "The Nazi scientists were so devoted to knowledge and so without ethics that they plumbed awful fields of study in their pursuit of power; even now the techniques we use to save people from drowning and hypothermia are reliant on Nazi research into exactly how long it takes for people to freeze and drown!" is a lie on the level of "Superior German engineering made the Nazi superweapons unstoppable; if only they'd had the resources to field enough of them, they would have conquered the world," or, for that matter, "The Nazis kept the trains running on time." No. The trains were late, the superweapons were impractical pieces of poo poo, and Mengele's research was basically worthless to everyone but him and his left hand when he went to bed at night. So, if Raksi is Lunar Mengele, what does that mean?)
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Feb 6, 2014 00:33
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