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Zogundar posted:
Well, I know the spell Miracle requires the deity who's granting the power to agree with what's going to happen. Making True Resurrection have a similar requirement wouldn't be that strange of a house rule.
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Feb 9, 2014 05:36
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xanthan posted:Besides changing him to not kill hobgoblins for funzies how has he changed for the better? I also think he's further into the pursuit of this at any cost. It would take him realizing that the Plan isn't necessary for the goblinoid races to live well and is just revenge (and for Gobbotopia to actually be a place where they live well and safely) to bail on Xykon at this point. It would be one hell of a crisis of faith.
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Feb 9, 2014 05:50
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Shugojin posted:I also think he's further into the pursuit of this at any cost. It would take him realizing that the Plan isn't necessary for the goblinoid races to live well and is just revenge (and for Gobbotopia to actually be a place where they live well and safely) to bail on Xykon at this point. Yeah Redcloak is basically a straw feminist. Or, you know, whatever the racism and high fantasy equivalent of that would be called. He says he wants goblins to have a fair shake, which is not an unreasonable goal on the surface, but what he actually wants is some kind of institutional revenge. He thinks that "a fair shake" is what PC races have right now, so he wants goblins elevated to the status of PC race, but then he also wants the current PC races to suffer as he and his people have, so they have to become adventurer chow in his New World Order. And he didn't really consider hobgoblins to count as goblins until recently. And he doesn't appear to give even half a poo poo about any other species in the same exact position as goblins. So really what he's after is for goblins to be top of the heap, oppressing every other species, which are only good for XP; which means that basically Redcloak's stated goal of a world where everyone has a fair go will come about when everyone rises up and exterminates goblins entirely, forgetting old rivalries and feuds in along the way and learning the true meaning of friendship (doubly so because they have oppression to compare it to). I think Jirix winning humans and dwarfs and elves and them over with diplomacy is more likely if only because Redcloak's actual ultimate goal is the chink in his Sympathetic Character Armor, and is, as established, less likely to turn out like a monkey's-paw wish.
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Feb 9, 2014 09:45
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It's worth noting that even under Redcloak's leadership, Gobbotopia was making major diplomatic gains and getting recognised as a sovereign state.
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Feb 9, 2014 11:13
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It is an established trend in fiction and real life that a lot of people who seek to undo/stop injustice often end up so angry and twisted by the process that the only thing they can think of to do is to just perpetuate the injustice on others instead. However it ends, I do hope Redcloak gets the last laugh on Xykon. Xykon's gotten away with a LOT due to his raw power and smarter than he looks brain, but his insistence on holding himself on the 'true peak of evil' by being nothing but evil and a dick and considering Redcloak's mix of morals to make him 'weak' and 'a pussy' seems like it WILL eventually result in a blind spot that Redcloak can exploit, in a way beyond that Redcloak is (kindasortaapparentlymaybe) manipulating Xykon even now.
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Feb 9, 2014 11:20
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Cornwind Evil posted:It is an established trend in fiction and real life that a lot of people who seek to undo/stop injustice often end up so angry and twisted by the process that the only thing they can think of to do is to just perpetuate the injustice on others instead. I think I'd prefer that he loses everything he was willing to gamble and gains nothing as a just reward. "Scheme and scam your way through life and persevere through as many atrocities as you can justify, and you can achieve anything!" isn't exactly an uplifting message. And given his given his stated views on Tarquin, I imagine Rich has some similar distaste for Redcloak. And I know you said on Xykon, not the world, but I think the two go hand in hand. Plus as you said, Redcloak thinks he's using Xykon. He's even been established to have some kind of plan for dealing with him in some way. I know we just went through a book about tropes but I still don't see a plan telegraphed this far in advance to go off without a hitch, even if some of the details have been withheld. I mean he murdered Tsukiko to protect one of his biggest secrets; it would be unsatisfying for him to say "Oh and I lied to you about everything, but I managed to get away with it all to the very end!" On the other hand, Start of Darkness spoilers: the entire reason Xykon is a Lich is because of a gamble Redcloak took that he thought would result in him having control over Xykon that backfired horribly. Rich probably has something different in mind than a simple repeat that goes back to the status quo. Xykon is a wild card, though. It's really hard to say if he can be the final boss when he's got comparatively little going for him, character depth wise. Sometimes he really does seem like a tool that Redcloak found, and nothing more. Or he could become a demi-lich and pocket Redcloak's soul in a gem next to (More Start of Darkness spoilers:)Lirian and Dorukon. Who knows!
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Feb 9, 2014 14:01
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Tenebrais posted:It's worth noting that even under Redcloak's leadership, Gobbotopia was making major diplomatic gains and getting recognised as a sovereign state. And the only reason they are making those gains is they are militarized and legitimately dangerous now. If they back slide in any way, it's going to go straight back to "kill goblins for the gently caress of it" because the universe literally justifies such metaphysically, and more importantly the people who live on this world know that. Diplomacy is not enough.
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Feb 9, 2014 16:35
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Captain Oblivious posted:And the only reason they are making those gains is they are militarized and legitimately dangerous now. If they back slide in any way, it's going to go straight back to "kill goblins for the gently caress of it" because the universe literally justifies such metaphysically, and more importantly the people who live on this world know that. Only constant military vigilance protects the proud nation-state of Gobbotopia from degenerating into a glorified dungeon crawl.
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Feb 9, 2014 16:39
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Captain Oblivious posted:Jirax and diplomacy would not seal the deal. Remember, this is a world where killing goblins as a good act is fact by divine decree. The problems are metaphysical as well as cultural. Actually I don't think this is the case, Rich implies that murdering goblin children would've caused some of the paladins to fall from grace.
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Feb 9, 2014 16:41
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Reading some of that stuff makes me realize that Redcloak is a white nationalist in a world where there actually is a massive conspiracy to destroy the white man.
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Feb 9, 2014 16:42
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Dr. Buttass posted:He says he wants goblins to have a fair shake, which is not an unreasonable goal on the surface, but what he actually wants is some kind of institutional revenge. He thinks that "a fair shake" is what PC races have right now, so he wants goblins elevated to the status of PC race, but then he also wants the current PC races to suffer as he and his people have, so they have to become adventurer chow in his New World Order. I don't see that, really. Redcloak tortures O-Chul, but it's a tactic to delay Xykon while the goblins solidify their hold on the city. That's certainly Evil, but it's not about revenge. He kills the resistance, but it seems more like cold efficiency than revenge. There's also the one panel joke " that happens when you get older, sometimes" about how Redcloak isn't particularly gleeful about killing a paladin, even though we'd expect him to be.
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Feb 9, 2014 16:59
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Using "cold efficency" to describe an attack beginning with all the corpses of the resistance's noncombatants nailed to the walls of their headquarters by their knees doesn't really work that well to me.
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Feb 9, 2014 18:12
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Illuyankas posted:Using "cold efficency" to describe an attack beginning with all the corpses of the resistance's noncombatants nailed to the walls of their headquarters by their knees doesn't really work that well to me. Were they non-combatants? I'd have thought that anyone without PC class levels would be smuggled out of the city. It's not like you need non-PCs to survive in the world of D&D where you can magic-up food and healing.
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Feb 9, 2014 18:25
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Mniot posted:Were they non-combatants? I'd have thought that anyone without PC class levels would be smuggled out of the city. It's not like you need non-PCs to survive in the world of D&D where you can magic-up food and healing. It's a resistance where they're outnumbered and outpowered, I don't think they're going to be sending away anyone with NPC levels who offers to help.
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Feb 9, 2014 19:09
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Mniot posted:
You might be stretching on that one a little. That's a classic boner joke from Xykon.
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Feb 9, 2014 19:09
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Redcloak was literally created for no other reason than to be murdered by somebody the gods actually like. If that's not reason enough for revenge on the gods, I don't know what is.
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Feb 9, 2014 22:41
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Raenir Salazar posted:Actually I don't think this is the case, Rich implies that murdering goblin children would've caused some of the paladins to fall from grace. Where does he do that? Because in SOD, we see a paladin immediately after she's murdered Redcloak's little sister, and there's not any sky-lightning to indicate a fall. And I don't think that Redcloak is entirely motivated by a desire to help goblinoids OR by a desire for revenge. Those are both there, but I think he's really taken Xykon's lesson from the end of SOD to heart: Winning is "not just about raw power, it's about how far you're willing to debase yourself before feeling bad". "Helping the goblinoids" isn't Redcloak's main goal anymore, it's just an excuse he can use to avoid feeling bad about how far he's already debased himself. Redcloak's tragedy is that he started out with a noble goal, but that's becoming more and more secondary - he's becoming more and more like Xykon, and doing Evil stuff even when it's not necessary. I cannot wait for (SOD spoiler)Redcloak's niece who was probably raised by humans to show up and point this out to Redcloak. Second-biggest Chekhov's gun in the series, after the MitD.
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Feb 9, 2014 22:43
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Pope Guilty posted:Redcloak was literally created for no other reason than to be murdered by somebody the gods actually like. If that's not reason enough for revenge on the gods, I don't know what is. I honestly agree. If you're going to create a race that is sentient and capable of civilization, and then not only wire them so most of them lean towards evil, but make them solely so other races can kill them to become stronger without feeling bad, and allow them to be AWARE of this fact, then you are basically asking for someone to eventually come along who knows this, doesn't like it, and feels completely justified in everything they do to change it, including every atrocity under the sun. It doesn't excuse Redcloak's actions, but the potential for those actions only exist because the Gods are acting like mortals of the worst stripe.
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Feb 9, 2014 23:51
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Ponsonby Britt posted:
You made me stew on other things that seem possibly due for return: Elan's first boss, Jirix(in particular what stomping the roaches meant), V's divorce, the last remaining scribble member(or is that just obvious upcoming plot?).
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Feb 9, 2014 23:54
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ikanreed posted:You made me stew on other things that seem possibly due for return: Elan's first boss, Jirix(in particular what stomping the roaches meant), V's divorce, the last remaining scribble member(or is that just obvious upcoming plot?). The halfling woman? Would she even still be alive? Kraagor was the first to go, Soon's been dead for long enough for Shojo to become old, Girard's a heap of musty bone fragments in the middle of a crater in the desert, Dorukan was also very old in the events leading up to the comic and both he and Lirian are indisposed right now. The diary is pretty much the only thing left of any use to anyone and unfortunately it's probably in the robe pockets of Team Evil.
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Feb 10, 2014 00:15
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Cornwind Evil posted:I honestly agree. If you're going to create a race that is sentient and capable of civilization, and then not only wire them so most of them lean towards evil, but make them solely so other races can kill them to become stronger without feeling bad, and allow them to be AWARE of this fact, then you are basically asking for someone to eventually come along who knows this, doesn't like it, and feels completely justified in everything they do to change it, including every atrocity under the sun. It doesn't excuse Redcloak's actions, but the potential for those actions only exist because the Gods are acting like mortals of the worst stripe. Well poo poo, no wonder Durkonula can still get spells from Thor- since Thor was in on the creation of the goblinoids, millions of sentient beings created only for suffering and death at the hands of the gods' favored races, there's no moral standard by which Thor or any of the gods can be considered good.
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Feb 10, 2014 00:46
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According to the original source
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Feb 10, 2014 00:47
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Ponsonby Britt posted:Where does he do that? Because in SOD, we see a paladin immediately after she's murdered Redcloak's little sister, and there's not any sky-lightning to indicate a fall. He said that the gods aren't obliged to put on a huge show and that when it happened with Miko it was because she was such a tremendous fuckup that it's like having the CEO of your company come down to your cubical and fire you personally. Also, because none of those paladins were important characters and focusing in on their character development would detract from Redcloak's story.
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Feb 10, 2014 02:04
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I assumed Jirix stomping the roach was just a gag indicating that he was sick of their bullshit?
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Feb 10, 2014 03:53
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TunaSpleen posted:The halfling woman? Would she even still be alive? Kraagor was the first to go, Soon's been dead for long enough for Shojo to become old, Girard's a heap of musty bone fragments in the middle of a crater in the desert, Dorukan was also very old in the events leading up to the comic and both he and Lirian are indisposed right now. The diary is pretty much the only thing left of any use to anyone and unfortunately it's probably in the robe pockets of Team Evil. The Order figured she might be; they tried to get in contact with her at some point. Halflings do live a bit longer than humans. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 03:59
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Colonel Cool posted:He said that the gods aren't obliged to put on a huge show and that when it happened with Miko it was because she was such a tremendous fuckup that it's like having the CEO of your company come down to your cubical and fire you personally. Also, because none of those paladins were important characters and focusing in on their character development would detract from Redcloak's story. Still, given the complete lack of any indication that or any other Paladin has fallen for what Azure City, a city defined by its Paladins, does on a regular basis... It seems more than a bit presumptuous to assume they fall for killing innocent goblinoids in spite of all this.
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Feb 10, 2014 05:25
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Wolfsheim posted:I assumed Jirix stomping the roach was just a gag indicating that he was sick of their bullshit? Of course it was.
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Feb 10, 2014 09:31
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Captain Oblivious posted:Still, given the complete lack of any indication that or any other Paladin has fallen for what Azure City, a city defined by its Paladins, does on a regular basis... There's no indication that Azure City paladins are killing goblin children as a matter of course. Miko was considered a real hardass with her ridiculous crusade again EVIL! It's pretty likely that you'd have a hard time finding a paladin who's willing to murder a child, even if it is a member of an evil race.
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Feb 10, 2014 13:30
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Kruller posted:I have the whole set, but would you mind spoiling it for me? I don't want to re-read them so soon and I don't remember that at all. They show Fyron's death in non-crayon flashback and its clearly still living Xycon who does it.
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Feb 10, 2014 15:43
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Cliff Racer posted:They show Fyron's death in non-crayon flashback and its clearly still living Xycon who does it. I believe the exchange in question was when Eugene's party went after Xyklon (or something like that  )
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Feb 10, 2014 16:03
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Slime posted:There's no indication that Azure City paladins are killing goblin children as a matter of course. Miko was considered a real hardass with her ridiculous crusade again EVIL! It's pretty likely that you'd have a hard time finding a paladin who's willing to murder a child, even if it is a member of an evil race. Have you read Start of Darkness? Miko was nowhere in sight.
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Feb 10, 2014 16:36
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Raenir Salazar posted:Have you read Start of Darkness? Miko was nowhere in sight. What I'm saying is that paladins like Miko are probably the exception rather than the norm.
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Feb 10, 2014 18:17
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Slime posted:What I'm saying is that paladins like Miko are probably the exception rather than the norm. I don't think you need to be as zealous as Miko to kill inferior, inherently evil beings as a matter of course. I got the impression from Redcloak that purges from the Azure City Paladins were pretty common.
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Feb 10, 2014 19:07
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I believe the way it went down was that purges specifically hunting the dude with the red cloak that'd end the universe were common, and there would have been a fair amount of collateral damage while going after it, some of which would have been over the line for individual paladins participating in it. They weren't massacring random villages for the XP.
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Feb 10, 2014 19:19
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Colonel Cool posted:I believe the way it went down was that purges specifically hunting the dude with the red cloak that'd end the universe were common, and there would have been a fair amount of collateral damage while going after it, some of which would have been over the line for individual paladins participating in it. They weren't massacring random villages for the XP. Despite what Rich's opinion on paladins may be, I get the feeling the gods are perfectly fine with power gamers. In Origin of the PCs, Roy's first adventuring party had a paladin who flat out refused Roy's suggestion of a peaceful solution to some squatting orcs (they were waiting for a heavy metal concert and scared the nearby human settlement) on the grounds that killing them would be easier and since the monster manual lists them as evil it wouldn't violate the paladin code. When Roy solves it peacefully anyways, the dude is pissed. I doubt if they had ended up killing the orcs, he would have fallen.
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Feb 10, 2014 20:31
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Colonel Cool posted:I believe the way it went down was that purges specifically hunting the dude with the red cloak that'd end the universe were common, and there would have been a fair amount of collateral damage while going after it, some of which would have been over the line for individual paladins participating in it. They weren't massacring random villages for the XP. Isn't Redcloak's whole beef is that yes, they were doing exactly that, because that is how the world is made?
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Feb 10, 2014 22:38
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RickoniX posted:Isn't Redcloak's whole beef is that yes, they were doing exactly that, because that is how the world is made? Redcloak is unbiased and even handed.
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Feb 11, 2014 04:36
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Redcloak did nothing wrong.
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Feb 11, 2014 05:11
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 #944 All of the Above, Actuallyhttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html Roy is still a conceited dickhead, news at 11.
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Feb 11, 2014 05:42
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inthesto posted:
Annndd...scene!! That was just brilliant!
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Feb 11, 2014 05:52
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