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Griff Lee posted:At least I don't make poo poo films then get really angry about it yeah. Imagine where your life would be if you made something as lovely as clerks. Thank god you dont have to live through that misery. 
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Feb 10, 2014 05:37
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I guess this is the place to put this. I recently watched Clerks for the first time in several (at least) years. It was the blu-ray version. Honestly, I’m surprised at how well it's held up. Decent enough performances by the leads, all things considered, with the supporting cast ranging from abysmal to excellent (I'm thinking of the old guy who had to use the bathroom... I love his performance, and there were a couple others that were surprisingly good). The film’s “message” (it being what it is) is still relevant enough today that the film never feels too dated. Some jokes that fell flat twenty years ago really fall on their face today (Randall’s “I eat cock” speech balloon), but the humor in most places is still brisk, fresh, and raunchy enough—although I believe I only laughed out loud once this viewing, when Randall spits water in the face of the customer who keeps going on about the tabloid papers. Why is that what I laughed at? I’m immature, I guess.
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Feb 10, 2014 08:43
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Clerks is cool, because it's a movie with a bit of pathos, has some decent characters, and isn't just a crass recitation of schtick like the rest of Kevin Smith stuff tends to be. There's a reason he got written up like a potential Tarantino after it came out.
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Feb 10, 2014 09:12
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It holds up because it comes off as ironic.
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Feb 10, 2014 18:13
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It was novel for its time, like Spike Lee's ideas on race relations. Now they both failed to evolve and suck.
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Feb 10, 2014 18:42
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Spike Lee's 25th Hour and Inside Man are both good. He's nowhere near the low level of Kevin Smith.
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Feb 10, 2014 19:53
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Spike Lee has had some clunkers but I don't get the hate. His successes rank among the greatest films of all time. Smith has had roughly one or two pretty alright films in 20 years.
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Feb 10, 2014 21:55
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Spike Lee's had his ups and downs. He made She Hate Me, but he also made When The Leeves Broke. Kevin Smith has had one "up".
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Feb 10, 2014 21:58
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Spike Lee also acts like a colossal shithead, like his reaction to the recent incident involving an artist getting ripped off by the Oldboy marketing team.
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Feb 10, 2014 22:03
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The charge that he's failed to evolve artistically is categorically false, however.
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Feb 10, 2014 22:09
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See: Spike Lee's hissy fit over Flags of our Fathers.
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Feb 10, 2014 23:27
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Casimir Radon posted:See: Spike Lee's hissy fit over Flags of our Fathers. How about Spike Lee posting on Twitter "George Zimmerman's" address. Interesting that Spike Lee has been brought up since Spike Lee was a major influence on Kevin Smith when he made Clerks.
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Feb 10, 2014 23:41
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Or Spike Lee suing Spike TV because "Spike."
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Feb 11, 2014 00:08
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I suppose I misspoke. Spike Lee has made some good films since his initial run. But when he sucks, which happens a good amount, it's because he leans on his old schtick. Him and Smith are also people who seem way more interested in their speaking engagements than what project they're currently developing.
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Feb 11, 2014 05:54
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Last Buffalo posted:I suppose I misspoke. Spike Lee has made some good films since his initial run. But when he sucks, which happens a good amount, it's because he leans on his old schtick. Him and Smith are also people who seem way more interested in their speaking engagements than what project they're currently developing. What schtick exactly? I didn't like Oldboy at all, for example, but for completely different reasons than I've ever disliked any other Spike Lee movie.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:12
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Lee also deserves credit for at least consistently trying new things. Even when he does something poorly received like Miracle at St. Anna or Oldboy, it's completely unlike anything else he's done before. And despite his personal failings, Lee's successes are still tremendous works, and have in some cases completely shaped the medium of film as we know it. The influence of Do the Right Thing is immeasurable. Malcolm X is perhaps one of the greatest biopics ever made. Even his first film, She's Gotta Have It, is an excellent, and for the time an entirely unique, take on relationships. That film also put Lee at the beginning of the American independent movement that would boom in the early 90s and later produce Kevin Smith. Yeah, Lee's made some crap, and yeah he's prone to talking poo poo. But comparing him to Kevin "I am 43 years-old and I put my name on a movie that has a talking penis as a villain" Smith is absurd.
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Feb 11, 2014 08:03
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penismightier posted:What schtick exactly? I didn't like Oldboy at all, for example, but for completely different reasons than I've ever disliked any other Spike Lee movie. Old Boy may very well have sucked because it was cut down too much. However, Kevin Smith sometimes suck because they are too long. What does this all mean? Jack poo poo, like the dialogue in a Smith movie.
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Feb 11, 2014 10:25
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The Clerks cartoon still holds up. Not much else. When it comes to Smith's behaviour, we should have all seen this coming with Strike Back. Also he went to film college so he should have been taught lenses and the history of film. gently caress I went to college for journalism and still was taught camera mechanics. Not that I was any good at it.
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Feb 11, 2014 14:47
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Last Buffalo posted:There's plenty to loath Smith about, but one thing that always strikes me about his films is the weird, hamfisted way he writes black characters. The gay faux black-power cartoonist in Chasing Amy, the couple in Clerks 2[,/i] and Craig Robinson, along with his wife, in Zach and Miri Make a Porno all are these weird, dated stereotypes. It's like the only black people he's ever met are characters on UPN. It's a shame, because Craig Robinson is such a naturally funny comedian, and he has to say stupid poo poo like "Why's it gotta be BLACK coffee? RACIST!" In this context I am inclined to bring up the black folks in the Clerks cartoon. First of course is Lando, presumably named after Lando Calrissian from Star Wars and a narrator-described diversity hire. He shows up and says hi and appears to more-or-less be an apology that "Yeah, I can't really write black characters." Second is Charles Barkley, who appeared as a guest star. I'd like to say that he wrote his own lines. That's all I got.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:25
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:The Clerks cartoon still holds up. Not much else. Did he not drop out to write Clerks?
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Feb 11, 2014 17:31
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:The Clerks cartoon still holds up. Not much else. Did he go to film school? I feel like I remember reading somewhere that he didn't, but I could be wrong. Wikipedia says nothing either way. You know, this thread was originally started in order to talk about his upcoming film Tusk. And the more I think about it, the more interested I am in the concept. I mean, it's Smith's game to lose and it very well could be a trainwreck, or worse - aggressively mediocre. But there's enough strength in the plot of a horror movie where a man forces his roommate to dress up as a walrus that I'm willing to give it a shot.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:34
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He only went to film school long enough to learn the bare basics of how to use the gear and then dropped out to start working on Clerks.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:40
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Yeah, I recall vaguely in one of the Evenings he wasn't even too big on film school because it was a lot of "discussing what Demme meant in Silence of the Lambs". Which was probably good to know because I recall Roger Ebert saying once, about Battlefield Earth, "The director, Roger Christian, has learned from better films that directors sometimes tilt their cameras, but he has not learned why". I rewatched Clerks not too long ago because of this thread and it really does still hold up. The characters are entertaining, the humor is there and there is a message that you might not agree with but at least understand. The only knock I found is the dialogue really does feel overwritten at times which was really charming in the 90s but now, especially with Smith's later works taken into consideration, you realize Smith was just writing down his stream of consciousness and what he was thinking about that week and having actors recite them. It's awkward to listen to if you're not a teenager or young adult with too much free time because people really do not talk like that. One thing I should also add is a lot of the sexual conversations in his movies are kinda creepy and gross to listen to because, if you listen to his podcast, those are actually what he's thinking about sexually or what he believes in in terms of sex. I used to think they were just awkward humor by having actors just casually talk about really gross sexual things but apparently it's just Kevin Smith again articulating his train of thought.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:41
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Not that you absolutely have to go to film school to make good films. Some of the lesser schools are basically just a really expensive gear rental. Take for example Tarantino who didn't go to film school, and didn't even finish high school, but he watched and studied movies constantlyand read everything film related he could get his hands on. Film school probably helps but you could learn the same things if you're motivated enough to put in the work.
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Feb 11, 2014 20:04
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Yeah, Smith went to the Vancouver Film School and dropped out not far into it. It's where he met Scott Mosier as well.
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Feb 11, 2014 20:43
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Plenty of great filmmakers never went to film school. Paul Thomas Anderson dropped out of NYU after a month or something like that. But the thing is, Smith never really seemed to understand film. He seems to idolize Jarmusch and Linklater without ever recognizing what commentary those guys are making or understanding what makes their films work. He complained about film school being a lot of "discussing what Demme meant in Silence of the Lambs," without recognizing that this is actually a pretty important part of the creative process. I'm sure he'd much rather be making Batman and Star Wars movies, but he recognizes that he's nowhere near as good of a filmmaker to ever be able to pull that off. He's trying to branch out and expand his horizons what with Red State and all, but he just doesn't seem to have the discipline anymore. Clerks is a film that shows great promise, but he never lived up to it.
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Feb 11, 2014 20:54
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Speaking of Paul Thomas Anderson, Smith once said this about MagnoliaKevin Smith posted:I’ll never watch it again, but I will keep it. I’ll keep it right on my desk, as a constant reminder that a bloated sense of self-importance is the most unattractive quality in a person or their work. Regardless of how you feel about Magnolia, most people would agree it's a far more effective film than anything Smith could ever dream of doing.
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Feb 12, 2014 01:53
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Yaws posted:Speaking of Paul Thomas Anderson, Smith once said this about Magnolia What's up with Magnolia?
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Feb 12, 2014 02:10
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Yaws posted:Speaking of Paul Thomas Anderson, Smith once said this about Magnolia Paul Thomas Anderson's films since 1999 (the year of Magnolia) and their Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic ratings Punch-Drunk Love - 79% and 78/100 There Will Be Blood - 91% and 92/100 The Master - 85% and 86/100 Kevin Smith's films since 1999 (the year Dogma was released) and their Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic ratings Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back - 54% and 51/100 Jersey Girl - 41% 43/100 Clerks II - 63% and 65/100 Zack and Miri Make a Porno - 65% and 56/100 Cop Out - 19% and 31/100 Red State - 58% and 50/100 During this period, Smith would complain about the criticism levelled at his films, and would make the apt, but not in the way that he seems to realise, comparison between said criticism and the act of bullying a retarded child. Paul Thomas Anderson, in the same period, would receive countless accolades and awards, including, but not limited to, multiple Academy Award and BAFTA nominations for directing and writing, while taking home prestigious awards such as the Golden Bear, the Silver Lion and the Best Director award at Cannes. Hopefully the copy of Magnolia that sits on Smith's desk now serves as a reminder to him of how far behind Anderson has left him in his wake on an artistic level. Uncle Wemus posted:What's up with Magnolia? Kevin Smith and PT Anderson both had films released in 1999 - Dogma and Magnolia, respectively. Smith took the time to bash Magnolia and Anderson online, calling it self-indulgent, among other things. edogawa rando fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Feb 12, 2014 |
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Feb 12, 2014 02:31
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Vagabundo posted:Kevin Smith and PT Anderson both had films released in 1999 - Dogma and Magnolia, respectively. Smith took the time to bash Magnolia and Anderson online, calling it self-indulgent, among other things. There's even a knock against the film in Strike Back where one of the online handles of the people trashing Jay & Silent Bob (in-universe) is "MagnoliaFan". Now I'm starting to see why Kevin Smith appealed to me as a teenager. Again, sourcing an Evening here because I'm an former fan who is re-collecting this, the two crossed paths years later when the two were getting a physical done for their respective film projects at the time. Insurance companies want a doctor's note saying the director won't keel over one day on-set is the reason. It sounded less like "we're cool now" and more like Paul Thomas Anderson going "Oh, Kevin Smith, hi" without recalling any tension from how Smith explained it.
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Feb 12, 2014 07:59
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I don't know whether Anderson ever knew or cared about Smith's problems with his film, or possibly even about Smith himself. That's what happens when you live in the outside world. Smith comes off as super insular which is a perfectly fine way to choose to live your life, but people who aren't tend not to care so much about otherthinking crap from the internet.
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Feb 12, 2014 08:10
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Justin Godscock posted:There's even a knock against the film in Strike Back where one of the online handles of the people trashing Jay & Silent Bob (in-universe) is "MagnoliaFan". Now I'm starting to see why Kevin Smith appealed to me as a teenager. Yeah, it was either Anderson not giving a poo poo, or being big enough to recognise that Smith's opinion on anything didn't matter one iota. It's on the second (and somewhat lesser) Evening With DVD.
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Feb 12, 2014 08:19
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Justin Godscock posted:
I think part of it is Smith is just incredibly insecure as a person who thinks writing dialogue is the best way to show off as a writer. Once you realize that, everything else makes sense. But Clerks is still a good movie.
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Feb 12, 2014 17:32
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FreudianSlippers posted:Not that you absolutely have to go to film school to make good films. Some of the lesser schools are basically just a really expensive gear rental. Take for example Tarantino who didn't go to film school, and didn't even finish high school, but he watched and studied movies constantlyand read everything film related he could get his hands on. Film school probably helps but you could learn the same things if you're motivated enough to put in the work. Of course not. As I said, I went to college for journalism and we learned about cameras and if you asked me to do a quiz on f-stops and ISOs I'll probably bomb it. If you hand me a Nikon like I used to own it'd take me a good hour to get back into taking semi-decent shots. But I didn't decide to become a photojournalist. Smith did decide to become a director. Reminds me of when my friend saw KoRn and they didn't know how to tune their instruments and had to wait for the roadie.
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Feb 12, 2014 21:13
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Justin Godscock posted:I rewatched Clerks not too long ago because of this thread and it really does still hold up. The characters are entertaining, the humor is there and there is a message that you might not agree with but at least understand. The only knock I found is the dialogue really does feel overwritten at times which was really charming in the 90s but now, especially with Smith's later works taken into consideration, you realize Smith was just writing down his stream of consciousness and what he was thinking about that week and having actors recite them. It's awkward to listen to if you're not a teenager or young adult with too much free time because people really do not talk like that. That whole "snappy, unrealistic dialogue" thing I think was just one of those things that was big in the 90's. I feel the same way about a lot of the dialogue in Tarantino's films from the same time.
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Feb 12, 2014 22:42
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raditts posted:That whole "snappy, unrealistic dialogue" thing I think was just one of those things that was big in the 90's. I feel the same way about a lot of the dialogue in Tarantino's films from the same time. It's still big today, but yeah it felt like a 90s thing. Buffy and Dawson's Creek was full of it. Then you had something like Go which kind of mocks it because these are stupid people who just wanna get high so they try it and it fails in clever ways.
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Feb 12, 2014 22:44
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Vagabundo posted:Yeah, it was either Anderson not giving a poo poo, or being big enough to recognise that Smith's opinion on anything didn't matter one iota. It's on the second (and somewhat lesser) Evening With DVD. Curious about this, since obviously it was Smith's version of the story. Did he actually speak with Anderson about the previous slights? Like did he approach him and say "hey sorry about anything I may have said years ago"? Or did he just talk with him and was surprised that Anderson wasn't holding a grudge (for something he possibly didn't even know about)?
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Feb 12, 2014 22:55
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Guy A. Person posted:Curious about this, since obviously it was Smith's version of the story. Did he actually speak with Anderson about the previous slights? Like did he approach him and say "hey sorry about anything I may have said years ago"? Or did he just talk with him and was surprised that Anderson wasn't holding a grudge (for something he possibly didn't even know about)? According to Smith, Anderson was the one who said "hello," and they had a quick chat about their upcoming projects, and Smith's comments about Magnolia never came up. Smith said he also felt a bit ashamed at how he had acted towards PTA online because of how much of a class act he was IRL.
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Feb 12, 2014 23:09
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Vagabundo posted:Smith said he also felt a bit ashamed at how he had acted towards PTA online because of how much of a class act he was IRL. I think this is probably something we all (should) feel at times.
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Feb 13, 2014 04:17
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Vagabundo posted:According to Smith, Anderson was the one who said "hello," and they had a quick chat about their upcoming projects, and Smith's comments about Magnolia never came up. Smith said he also felt a bit ashamed at how he had acted towards PTA online because of how much of a class act he was IRL. Just from what you've written, that is so weird that he would call him a class act. Sounds like basic manners? Hi how are you? What are you working on? I'm working on X.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:04
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