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I guess we should all stop our idle speculation based off of two years of public playtesting, because this is clearly the kind of team capable of turning the entire game around in three months. Some guy on the internet said so. Edit: The guy who "broke NDA" two years ago was also full of poo poo. DalaranJ fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Feb 14, 2014 |
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Feb 14, 2014 01:43
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I dunno what to tell you. If the final game is good, I'll forgive all the bullshit that has come so far. If it's not, gently caress it. But i recognize the guy, so...
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Feb 14, 2014 01:49
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It's all bullshit, literally all of that stuff is exactly in the opposite direction of what we've seen this game working towards in all the previous playtest packets.
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Feb 14, 2014 01:53
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dwarf74 posted:I dunno what to tell you. If the final game is good, I'll forgive all the bullshit that has come so far. If it's not, gently caress it. So say we all. If you think the guy is trustworthy than it really is good news. VV Mikan will be glad to break the NDA for you. He did it before. DalaranJ fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Feb 14, 2014 |
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Feb 14, 2014 01:57
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I'm not going to take a random dude on the internet's word for it with no proof, but I'd rather see a good Next than a bad one. Wizards of the Coast give me the private playtest, if it's actually good I will be the most vocal and obnoxious proponent of your game ever
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Feb 14, 2014 02:02
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As interesting as OMG IS IT REAL OR NOT is, I am gonna post a recipie. Gonna make this tomorrow I think, serve it over rice: Ingredients 2 tablespoons olive oil 1 medium onion, very finely minced 3 cloves garlic, finely minced 1 tbsp fresh minced ginger ˝ tsp crushed red chili pepper 1 – 14.5 oz (400 g) can crushed or diced tomatoes ˝ cup peanut butter (or almond or sunflower butter) 1 tsp dried coriander (optional) 2 cups vegetable broth (or water) 1 medium sweet potato (about 1 lb), peeled and diced 1 can kidney or black beans, drained and rinsed 1 ˝ cups frozen peas (or frozen/canned corn) 2 cups hearty leafy greens (spinach, arugula, kale, collard) Salt and pepper If you’re using a can of diced tomatoes, blend them along with their juice for a few seconds in the food processor or blender, just to break them up. Heat the oil in a large pot or Dutch oven over medium heat. Add the onion and cook until soft but not brown, about 10 minutes. Add the garlic, ginger and chili and cook for about 5 minutes to soften. Add the tomatoes, stir to combine then add the peanut butter (and coriander, if using), stirring it in until smooth. Stir in the broth add sweet potatoes. Cover the pan and simmer until the sweet potatoes are tender but not falling apart, about 15 minutes. Add the black beans, peas/corn, greens and cook until the beans and peas/corn are heated through and the greens are wilted. Season with salt and pepper, and add additional crushed chili flakes, as per your heat preference.
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Feb 14, 2014 02:09
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dwarf74 posted:Now this is interesting. NDAs being violated? No idea, but the first good Next news I've seen in a while, from the current closed playtest. I am actually curious where these quotes came from. Were they on the WotC forums somewhere? Someone on ENWorld or RPG.net?
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Feb 14, 2014 02:12
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Swagger Dagger posted:It would be really nice if Next turned out to be good. It would. But I wouldn't bet on it.
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Feb 14, 2014 02:18
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moths posted:I'm going to call bullshit on this because he's posing as a 4E fan. Yes that is a little strange. But oh boy the WoTC forums. It makes me sad as I used to go there daily and loved reading and talking about D&D. But ever since Next, it's turned completely around with all these mad rants and people saying things like; "they should get rid of the keywords on powers because it interferes with the roleplaying aspect of the game etc". If I do go there, I hide in the 4e section and find people who are realising it's a great edition and actually improved a lot of things. At first I was actually optimistic about this leak, but now it's been mentioned it doesn't add up at all with what Mearls and Co are saying. They are unapologetically saying it's 3e all over again. Come on down! I understand they want to get the Pathfinder people back and have been trying to appeal to the 3e crowd a lot. The playtests were nothing like 4e at all. They ran as far and as fast in the other direction as they could. Why would the final game be a lot like 4e? Once the 3e crowd they have been courting get their hands on it. They will flip their lids! Being told they are getting what they want, with none of that 4e that they loathe. Only to be then given 4e mark II instead? It'll be a grog-riot!
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Feb 14, 2014 02:25
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Piell posted:It's all bullshit, literally all of that stuff is exactly in the opposite direction of what we've seen this game working towards in all the previous playtest packets.
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Feb 14, 2014 02:29
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DalaranJ posted:So say we all. e: I mean, I can't see any reason for him to make up poo poo which makes Next seem okay, so... But at the same time, it's a playtest, so who knows what will make it into what books or no books at all. Maybe he's getting the "4e fan" packet or something, for all I know. Ryuujin posted:I am actually curious where these quotes came from. Were they on the WotC forums somewhere? Someone on ENWorld or RPG.net? dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Feb 14, 2014 |
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Feb 14, 2014 02:39
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Splicer posted:A while back I had a theory that there were real developers working on the real Next all along and the gibberish we've been subjected to was just an elaborate grog-pleasing smoke screen. This would be hilarious but also be D&D's death knell. I mean, grognards flipped out about 4th edition, can you imagine the shitstorm they would cause if D&D Next didn't cater to them?
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Feb 14, 2014 02:39
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Piell posted:This would be hilarious but also be D&D's death knell. I mean, grognards flipped out about 4th edition, can you imagine the shitstorm they would cause if D&D Next didn't cater to them? They would not get the grog-crowd and they have already driven off most of the 4e crowd by throwing the edition under a bus. Who would be left?
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Feb 14, 2014 02:52
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I missed this one from before:Cybit;6261524 posted:You are looking at the latest open playtest documents, not the latest playtest documents. Lokiare, who's a dick but thinking what I'd certainly be thinking posted:{sarcasm}You're totally right. 'Facing' is huge part of tactics and not at all tedius or pointless.{/sarcasm} Cybit;6261541 posted:What makes you think I'm talking about facing? So I dunno, either this guy has no NDA, he's flagrantly violating it, or he's trolling after 6 years of never trolling.  Regardless, the words his fingers are typing are words I want to read about Next, so I'm now a bit more optimistic that it won't be total bullshit when it's released. I'm in for buying the core books regardless; it's just if they're poo poo, that's all the money I'm spending on Next for a while.
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Feb 14, 2014 02:53
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Piell posted:This would be hilarious but also be D&D's death knell. I mean, grognards flipped out about 4th edition, can you imagine the shitstorm they would cause if D&D Next didn't cater to them? This is a joke theory that I don't actually not believe. knux911 posted:They would not get the grog-crowd and they have already driven off most of the 4e crowd by throwing the edition under a bus. Who would be left? Splicer fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Feb 14, 2014 |
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Feb 14, 2014 02:57
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Piell posted:This would be hilarious but also be D&D's death knell. I mean, grognards flipped out about 4th edition, can you imagine the shitstorm they would cause if D&D Next didn't cater to them? Actually the dumbest thing about them flipping out on grog-catering is that 4th edition actually did really well monetarily.
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Feb 14, 2014 03:39
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See this is the thing these people seem to think 4e did terrible and that is why it ended so soon. That 4e was obviously inferior to Pathfinder and that Pathfinder was outselling 4e. They have no real solid numbers to back this up. The closest is a link to a 3rd parties interviews with a few game stores that completely fail to take into account other gaming stores, book stores, online sales let alone Insider subscriptions. Yet somehow they are so confident that Pathfinder outsold 4e and that 4e did terribly. It is baffling.
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Feb 14, 2014 04:03
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I didn't enjoy 4e, therefore it did poorly. It's an easy trap to fall into.
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Feb 14, 2014 04:12
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fatherdog posted:Actually the dumbest thing about them flipping out on grog-catering is that 4th edition actually did really well monetarily. Is this actually like, anywhere? Dudes love to say it did bad or well or whatever, but has anything that is not just nerd speculation out there?
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Feb 14, 2014 04:26
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Cease to Hope posted:I didn't enjoy 4e, therefore it did poorly. It's an easy trap to fall into. Well yeah, the opinion of most people re: sales seems to mirror their experience with 4e. "I liked 4e, so of course it did well because all the people I know play it" vs. "I hated 4e and dont know anyone who likes it so no one clearly bought it."
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Feb 14, 2014 04:28
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CaptCommy posted:Thought experiment! Let's say the Wizard is completely unchangeable from its current state. What's the best way to buff martial classes to the same power level both in combat and narratively? I've got some ideas myself but I'm interested to see what everyone else thinks. Remove the ability to use magic items from magic using classes, amp up their use and the ability to procure them for martial classes. Wizards choose their powers by deciding what spells to memorize, fighters do it by choosing what sword and sandals they are going to wear.
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Feb 14, 2014 04:33
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Remove the ability to use magic items from magic using classes, amp up their use and the ability to procure them for martial classes. Wizards choose their powers by deciding what spells to memorize, fighters do it by choosing what sword and sandals they are going to wear. Oh man shoe shopping
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Feb 14, 2014 04:42
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Winson_Paine posted:Well yeah, the opinion of most people re: sales seems to mirror their experience with 4e. "I liked 4e, so of course it did well because all the people I know play it" vs. "I hated 4e and dont know anyone who likes it so no one clearly bought it." One way people could tell was by checking out the DDI Insider forum subscriptions, which required you to be a DDI subscriber. And they had at one point enough people subscribing and actively posting in their forum to haul in at least half a million dollars per month, assuming every single one of them was going with the cheapest possible subscription option. That doesn't even count all the possible non-posting Insider users. I don't know if those things are still the case, but I'd call that a decent indicator that things were going okay for 4e.
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Feb 14, 2014 04:48
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Winson_Paine posted:Is this actually like, anywhere? Dudes love to say it did bad or well or whatever, but has anything that is not just nerd speculation out there? I thought someone had done the math with DDI and shown that it had to be raking in cash. Who knows if that means if it was a success in Hasbro's eyes or how much of a portion of 4E's sales it amounted to or if DDI affected the sales of other 4E products or whatever? And who knows if all the ____ Power books made up for the lack of setting supplements? Just speaking from my own experience, I bought 2E and 3E books more frequently than 4E books despite liking 4E more, playing it for its entire run (and still playing it) and having the disposable income to buy any RPG book I desire. Books full of powers are loving boring, don't do anything for me as a DM, and don't matter because my players have access to a character builder.
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Feb 14, 2014 04:50
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Winson_Paine posted:Oh man shoe shopping Just like one of my MMOs.
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Feb 14, 2014 04:56
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Back when I remembered how to look up Amazon's top-sellers by category, 4e products regularly dominated more than half of the top 20 products in whatever category they were in. I loved linking it when grogs started talking about 4e's DEATH SPIRAL.
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Feb 14, 2014 05:00
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Wanna play an Urban Arcana parkour monk who has enchanted pairs of Adidas Sambas of Striding and Springing to match all his different enchanted track suits.
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Feb 14, 2014 05:01
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When 4E was actually releasing stuff it had a pretty huge amount of DDI subscribers and it's books always (by a pretty large margin) outsold Pathfinder and pretty much most other RPGs in most online retailers, so it's probably safe to say that while it was still being made it was at least outselling Pathfinder, by how much or whether or not it was enough by Hasbro's standards is pretty impossible to say. There was a big effort post by some goon a few years back that went into this pretty hardcore from what I remember, but I have no idea who posted it and I don't even know where I would begin to dig it up.
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Feb 14, 2014 05:13
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Yeah, I figure from DDI subscriptions alone 4e must have pulled a healthy profit. Then again, that's a new revenue model thing more than it is a new edition thing.
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Feb 14, 2014 05:24
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Yeah, see, most of the sales figures comes from anecdotes and stuff they saw on Amazon. People tend to come to the conclusion they want to with that sort of evidence. It is a reasonableish assumption that if it did well, it did not do as well as they hoped because drat if they aren't running away from it with 5e. Part of this is no one here has an idea of what Hasbro or WOTC thinks is "a fair amount of money" when all we have is the odd annual report mentioning that MtG has bounced back from only making enough money to dwarf the rest of the industry combined when it was a down year or whatever.
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Feb 14, 2014 05:42
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Winson_Paine posted:Is this actually like, anywhere? Dudes love to say it did bad or well or whatever, but has anything that is not just nerd speculation out there? The closest they came to ever releasing numbers was that the 4e PHB's 1st print run was 50% larger than the 3.5e PHB 1st print run and sold out almost immediately. Also, the PHB2 made the Wall Street Journal's non fiction best seller list a year later, so it was, at least, initially popular by the modest standards of tabletop gaming. After that, I can't say.
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Feb 14, 2014 05:44
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Winson_Paine posted:Yeah, see, most of the sales figures comes from anecdotes and stuff they saw on Amazon. People tend to come to the conclusion they want to with that sort of evidence. It is a reasonableish assumption that if it did well, it did not do as well as they hoped because drat if they aren't running away from it with 5e. Part of this is no one here has an idea of what Hasbro or WOTC thinks is "a fair amount of money" when all we have is the odd annual report mentioning that MtG has bounced back from only making enough money to dwarf the rest of the industry combined when it was a down year or whatever. Hasbro's standard is about 40 million a year. So, yeah, D&D was never going to get there.
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Feb 14, 2014 05:47
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Are they gonna keep doing the DDI thing?
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Feb 14, 2014 05:48
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Hasbro's standard is about 40 million a year. So, yeah, D&D was never going to get there. Winson_Paine posted:Are they gonna keep doing the DDI thing?
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Feb 14, 2014 06:03
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Winson_Paine posted:Are they gonna keep doing the DDI thing? They have said they will keep it up for anyone who wants to continue paying for it. But if the take-up of DDN isn't as much as they would like, I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped DDI to try and force 4e fans off the old product. knux911 fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Feb 14, 2014 |
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Feb 14, 2014 06:16
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Winson_Paine posted:Oh man shoe shopping It's like spell scroll shopping but with way more opportunities for fashion.
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Feb 14, 2014 06:16
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Splicer posted:A while back I had a theory that there were real developers working on the real Next all along and the gibberish we've been subjected to was just an elaborate grog-pleasing smoke screen. Funny enough, the experience so far has been the opposite. A whole lot of "4e is here, really!" followed by nothing at all. Piell posted:This would be hilarious but also be D&D's death knell. I mean, grognards flipped out about 4th edition, can you imagine the shitstorm they would cause if D&D Next didn't cater to them? It's really the opposite. Grognards were never going to buy into Next. Their entire experience with the playtest has been finding any and every excuse to decry "4e!" upon it, even with poo poo that's completely unconnected from 4e. I mean come on, the latest rallying cry was "halflings move too fast!"
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Feb 14, 2014 06:16
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ProfessorCirno posted:It's really the opposite. Grognards were never going to buy into Next. Their entire experience with the playtest has been finding any and every excuse to decry "4e!" upon it, even with poo poo that's completely unconnected from 4e. I mean come on, the latest rallying cry was "halflings move too fast!" I think this is mistaking justifications for reasons. Regardless of what they're saying, grogs aren't going to buy D&D Next because they already have a game they like. The culture of making GBS threads on games you don't like is toxic and stupid, but it is based on the perfectly reasonable decision to not buy the New and Improved version because you already own the Classic Original Flavor and it's serving your needs just fine. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Feb 14, 2014 |
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Feb 14, 2014 06:56
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Yeah as far as I know there are no real solid numbers on sales for either 4e or Pathfinder. The closest was the number of DDI subscriptions which could at least vaguely be used to calculate an estimate for that one source of revenue. There was the top seller or whatever lists for Amazon that made it look like 4e outsold Pathfinder while 4e was still producing new books then was overtaken by Pathfinder when they weren't but that is hardly all that reliable. And I guess the report on the 4e PHB outselling the 3.5 PHB, I think I had vaguely heard rumors of this but I had never seen hard proof. Supposedly DDI will remain, for awhile at least, but there is currently no indication that they will switch it over to Next or add Next stuff, and it is entirely possible that they will remove it if they feel like it is preventing people from moving on to Next. But as far as I know nothing concrete either way.
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Feb 14, 2014 07:52
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No matter how well 4E might have done on bringing in new customers, the amount of people still clinging to the old editions is a big missed opportunity from a business standpoint. I am no MBA, and I could be completely wrong, but is seems to me that keeping your current customer base and expanding it is the cornerstone of doing business. Sacrificing your old, toxic customers in order to get more new ones must be a new concept really. I can't think of any other industry, other than maybe soft drinks, where there was such an uproar against the New Think from loyal customers, and Hasbro should have good reason to think that their 30-something player base is completely rational about the new version of their product, and if it failed to capture them then it was obviously an error of product management. And speaking of things that I have never seen before, what about this whole having a closed testing AFTER the open one? Has that ever happened before? In video games you have a period of development, then closed alpha, then closed beta, then MAYBE open beta before release. With DnD next, we had more or less closed alpha => open alpha => open beta => closed beta => release. Doesn't make sense. If they got the game to a releasable state to their audience's approval, why the need for a closed beta with NDAs and all that? I wouldn't be surprised if it means that Next does turn out to be "4E done right", from a product management standpoint. It has hit all the right buttons: Old customer courtship, engagement in the design process, hints of good design decisions (both new and reintroduced from 4E), and now a closed beta were they can get an actually good product out. The whole Magic vs Martial thing is a sore point, but there is still time to fix during the beta without the grogs knowing. Maybe it's because I started to eat more healthily and go to the gym, but I am feeling optimistic about this V  V
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