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Misogynist posted:You were under no obligation to sign anything just because he asked you, by the way. It may put you in a worse position as you try to collect evidence of the amount of unpaid work you actually did for this guy. This is a bit of good advice. If you're getting bounced out or quitting and the terms of your separation are not what you want, don't sign poo poo. No non-competes, no severance agreements, no NOTHING. Those signatures are probably your last bit of leverage that doesn't involve going to court.
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Feb 14, 2014 16:03
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Bob Morales posted:What would a 'masters in IT' even be? MIS is for people who 'like computers' but can't program, right? My MIS program was supposed to involve actual programming (which is why I chose it) but the instructor that taught it got tired of whiny business students bitching about how "hard" programming is and that it was stupid that they had to learn it at all for a "business degree". So the one class basically became how to pull reports from a database using Crystal Reports and other Visual Studio tools. The other got changed to a SDLC class. The classes were still called Introduction to Programming and Intermediate Programming though. I probably should have switched majors right then and there but I was stupid and held on until the end (what are sunk costs?). I don't think I learned any real marketable skills at all with my MIS program.
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Feb 14, 2014 16:38
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My MIS program was actually pretty great, but they've since made it stupid. It was a solid blend of coding, and learning how to configure + administer almost anything. ESX (GSX at the time,) AD, BIND, Squid, we did it all. Then towards the end we started learning the management side, which helped me understand you work for a business with actual goals; you're not just playing with toys. A few years, ago they forked the technical courses into another degree program (Computer Networking) which is nearly 100% technical. The MIS program today is basically a business degree with a passing mention of the OSI model.
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Feb 14, 2014 16:50
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Bob Morales posted:What would a 'masters in IT' even be? MIS is for people who 'like computers' but can't program, right? My MIS Bachelors program focuses on exactly what psydude said -- systems integration, analysis and engineering. It also includes 3000 and 4000 level finance (not easy) courses, management, organizational behavior and project management. And while it's certainly not a computer science degree there are definitely some challenging technical courses. For instance, I was required to take an intro to algorithm design (which was language independent, essentially a math/logic course), and a course in the programming language of my choice. The program also requires an introductory SQL course and an upper-level database design course. It's not a light-weight program by any means, but obviously it's not as technically challenging as a university CS program.
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Feb 14, 2014 16:52
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My Computer Informations System bachelors program was part of the business college, and it was a watered down business curriculum (1st/2nd level courses are the deepest you'll go) mixed with a watered down IT curriculum. You dabble and get hands on experience with some technical stuff, lots of conceptual experience and SDLC/project management type stuff, but nothing substantial enough to get a job without some real experience. I felt bad for the people who were obviously in the program because they "heard there are jobs in computers" but had no technical inclination, they are probably working a call center somewhere wondering what happened. Its not like a CS degree where you gain practical skills, graduate, and go directly into a development position. But to its favor, you are much more marketable and can steer your career into a variety of directions.
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Feb 14, 2014 17:47
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Dude, even in the US if you quit they have no more than 72 hours to settle up with you. The Netherlands has better labor laws than the US, right? LAWYER NOW.
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Feb 14, 2014 18:09
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My undergrad was "Information Science" which I liked pretty well. I started out pure CS but decided a few years in that I didn't want to be a full-time dev and the admin/ops side of the house sounded much more fun. Thankfully the first couple years of IS were almost a complete overlap with the beginning of CS so I didn't even end up graduating late. The program was kind of a mashup of all the things people are describing. Intro CS programming courses, with a lot of the non-hardcore-coding electives like UI Design, Database 101 and Data Mining made mandatory. Then instead of continuing into advanced math or writing compilers, you took some courses in technical writing, psychology, business and experimental design with the goal of learning to use your technical know-how to solve actual business problems and--gasp--work with people. I don't recall any courses on how to administrate Windows/Linux/VMware/whatever and honestly I'm kind of glad. Products come and go, if I wanted that kind of education I could just grab a couple certs and save myself a fortune in tuition. Learning actual CS fundamentals and all of the social science and business stuff will last a lifetime and serve me in a wide range of jobs. I'm also of the opinion that within the next decade, a sysadmin who can't code and code well will be out on the street or busted down to helldesk/NOC grunt work, so I'm glad that half of the degree was so CS-heavy.
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Feb 14, 2014 18:37
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Congratulations on quitting, Sefal! It was definitely in your best interests. I'll repeat what others have already said, lawyer up and call that accountant today with a figure. I need to grow a spine like you. I'm still expecting a promotion (Jan 1... then Feb1..now end of Feb), and I spoke to my boss today about compensation for it. He said he didn't expect HR to come up with a payscale that was appreciably more than I'm making now. He's wrong, but I didn't call him on it. Bottom number for my description in my state is 20k more than I'm making, and I think that's part of the reason it hasn't happened yet. He also outright denied my request for additional PTO - currently at 12 days plus federal holidays, requested 17. It's bullshit, but I don't plan to be here too much longer. On the upside, the CEO gave me a $1500 bonus today for closing up some audit tracking items!
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Feb 14, 2014 18:56
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Docjowles posted:My undergrad was "Information Science" I had a very similar undergrad. Information Systems: Analyst and Design. Dabbled in just about the same stuff. Never had any courses on administration or anything. Programming, database, UI, project management...
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Feb 14, 2014 18:59
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I expect a Sysadmin will have to know how to use a scripting language and how to write batch files at the very least in the future. I'm not to sure what other coding a Sysadmin would really need to do. I've got SQL, C++, Javascript, HTML/CSS and VB down as stuff that i'm quite comfortable sitting down, refreshing my memory on and doing something simple, but as far as i've seen i've not really seen any Sysadmin work with code aside from a bit of fiddling in powershell (which, while i'm not comfortable listing it down as something i can do, i'm definitely playing with it right now). The "IT" course my uni offered was basically a business course with light coding thrown in to keep people on edge. They skipped over any specific programs/products, much like others i've read about and made it more about "this is how a computer works and this is how you can make that computer work within a business".
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Feb 14, 2014 19:02
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dogstile posted:I expect a Sysadmin will have to know how to use a scripting language and how to write batch files at the very least in the future. I'm not to sure what other coding a Sysadmin would really need to do. I've got SQL, C++, Javascript, HTML/CSS and VB down as stuff that i'm quite comfortable sitting down, refreshing my memory on and doing something simple, but as far as i've seen i've not really seen any Sysadmin work with code aside from a bit of fiddling in powershell (which, while i'm not comfortable listing it down as something i can do, i'm definitely playing with it right now). :windowslyfe: If you're an admin on non-Windows systems and you don't know how to script, you're doing yourself a woeful disservice. It's pretty much impossible to be a *nix admin and not know perl or python and shell, and the better admins tend to know at least a little C (historically, this is less necessary now).
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Feb 14, 2014 19:09
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Yeah, that makes sense. I've not really played with many other systems, I need to get a lab going and give it a go.
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Feb 14, 2014 19:15
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dogstile posted:The "IT" course my uni offered was basically a business course with light coding thrown in to keep people on edge. They skipped over any specific programs/products, much like others i've read about and made it more about "this is how a computer works and this is how you can make that computer work within a business". if you're not already technically proficient or get an internship, it kind of leaves you in a lurch when its job hunting time. I think these programs should require a couple of certs before graduation. My intro to Networking prof allowed us to skip the final project if we got our Network+ cert, which I think is a cool way of doing it.
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Feb 14, 2014 19:19
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dogstile posted:I expect a Sysadmin will have to know how to use a scripting language and how to write batch files at the very least in the future. I'm not to sure what other coding a Sysadmin would really need to do. I've got SQL, C++, Javascript, HTML/CSS and VB down as stuff that i'm quite comfortable sitting down, refreshing my memory on and doing something simple, but as far as i've seen i've not really seen any Sysadmin work with code aside from a bit of fiddling in powershell (which, while i'm not comfortable listing it down as something i can do, i'm definitely playing with it right now). Yeah sorry that was a flippant remark. I definitely didn't mean "needs to know how to write 50,000 lines of Java and create baller GUI applications" or anything. To an extent it will depend on the size of your organization, how many machines an admin is expected to manage, and what you want to accomplish. But if you're managing more than a dozen boxes (number pulled out of my rear end) and not automating that work with scripting you're probably wasting a lot of time doing things in a manual, slow, error-prone way. Not to mention boring. Puppet/Chef/etc manifests are a form of code, as are API calls to manage your AWS cloud, and I can't imagine life without them. There's a difference between banging out a batch file (or shell script in the *nix world) that "works" and writing readable, maintainable, reusable code. Often "scripting" is used as an alias for a lovely quick hack even if that "script" is production-critical. Likewise being able to read and modify someone else's code, whether it's an internal script or an open source tool that's bugging out, is incredibly valuable. That's more what I was getting at. Not that you need to be able to code as well and prolifically as a full-time software dev.
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Feb 14, 2014 19:38
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dogstile posted:I expect a Sysadmin will have to know how to use a scripting language and how to write batch files at the very least in the future. I'm not to sure what other coding a Sysadmin would really need to do. I've got SQL, C++, Javascript, HTML/CSS and VB down as stuff that i'm quite comfortable sitting down, refreshing my memory on and doing something simple, but as far as i've seen i've not really seen any Sysadmin work with code aside from a bit of fiddling in powershell (which, while i'm not comfortable listing it down as something i can do, i'm definitely playing with it right now).
The bottom line is that businesses are interested in people who can help them win. Executives are interested in having staff whose contributions can be linked directly to the success or failure of business initiatives, rather than $140,000/year plumbers. evol262 posted::windowslyfe: Vulture Culture fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Feb 14, 2014 |
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Feb 14, 2014 20:27
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ZetsurinPower posted:if you're not already technically proficient or get an internship, it kind of leaves you in a lurch when its job hunting time. I think these programs should require a couple of certs before graduation. My intro to Networking prof allowed us to skip the final project if we got our Network+ cert, which I think is a cool way of doing it. Yeah, I went and took the computer science course instead, which gave me some Cisco certs. I liked the idea of learning how to apply things to businesses, but I really would prefer to know the finer details rather than the basic knowledge. When I learn something, if I don't know it in depth i'm not satisfied because occasionally something will go wrong and I won't know why. When I know something in depth that doesn't really happen. In regards to the post about never hiring an admin who can't code, it looks like I better keep my skills crisp then. Which is fine by me, i'm not content to sit at a helpdesk for a piddly £19,000 or so a year. dogstile fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Feb 14, 2014 |
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Feb 14, 2014 20:30
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computer science = cisco certs?
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Feb 14, 2014 20:39
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My brothers CS covered some Cisco stuff, not sure if he took the classes as an elective or not though. He learned Linux/CUDA/Java/Cisco in his program.
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Feb 14, 2014 21:32
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A job offer came in!  45K for a very very Jr. Sysadmin position. Considering I have less than a years experience in the field of IT and this is an effective doubling and change of my current rate, I'm going to chalk this off as a win.
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Feb 14, 2014 21:49
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QuiteEasilyDone posted:A job offer came in! Congrats! 
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Feb 14, 2014 21:54
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It just seems a really odd thing to have in CS coursework. We didn't have anything vendor specific in any of our work. CS 101 was C++ and CS 102 was Java. That changed the year I started our program ('97), in prior years it was CS 101 = C and CS 102 = C++. Other than that, we did a good bit of assembly, SQL, and then there was one semester that hit just a ton of different languages including some really off the wall ones to expose us to different types. One of the strangest was Occam2, concurrent computing was a difficult thing to wrap your head around at first. The big sophomore project was to write an assembler in C++.
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Feb 14, 2014 22:02
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While the "goon in the well" makes sense without any kind of backstory, I googled anyway. This is a pretty fair description: http://pastebin.com/F83ZG2L6quote:The "goon in a well" is an analogy used throughout GBS and E/N to describe goons with horrible relationship problems who refuse to take good advice. Sefal, please don't dig and lawyer up. And tell us more because 
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Feb 15, 2014 00:31
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Bob Morales posted:computer science = cisco certs? It was a side thing it offered. If you wanted to do it, you could do it, they'd pay. The rest of it was actual computer science stuff, guess I didn't explain that well. Apologies.
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Feb 15, 2014 01:31
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Latin American Studies majors represent.
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Feb 15, 2014 02:19
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psydude posted:Latin American Studies majors represent. Yah. History major here. At least my program (mostly) wasn't about how badly Potosi and sugar farming hosed an entire continent
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Feb 15, 2014 05:49
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What's the procedure for handling another recruiter calling about the same position for which you've already accepted an offer from another recruiter?
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Feb 15, 2014 20:38
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There is no procedure. I mean, I guess you could try it if you wanted to piss off both recruiting companies and the client.
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Feb 15, 2014 20:46
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Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:What's the procedure for handling another recruiter calling about the same position for which you've already accepted an offer from another recruiter? Tell them you've already been submitted by another company.
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Feb 15, 2014 20:51
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mattfl posted:Tell them you've already been submitted by another company. That's what I did. As soon as I found out it was for literally the same position I told them I start in 2 weeks through another company. They were also offering $5/hr less! Edit: GOOCHY posted:There is no procedure. I mean, I guess you could try it if you wanted to piss off both recruiting companies and the client. That's why I asked, I want to make sure I don't piss anybody off and also trying to cover my rear end. Fiendish Dr. Wu fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Feb 15, 2014 |
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Feb 15, 2014 23:43
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Sefal posted:Update! I quit. Just to clarify, you worked for 11 months without pay?
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Feb 16, 2014 12:48
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So if, say, I was looking to get into a sysadmin role, and was currently boning up for the A+ (I pretty much know enough to pass, I just need to save up the moneys), what cert or language/skills should I look into as a next step? By which I mean the most generally useful/appealing to employers. I'm fairly technically proficient already and will shortly be starting on the new tablet support team/minor helldesk role at work (still better than the office work I'm currently doing) and I've finally worked up the enthusiasm to apply myself to getting some actual qualifications, but I am really skittish and unsure about applying myself unless I have a concrete idea of what route to chuck myself down. I thoroughly enjoy tinkering with both hardware/software and ruining all my tech in the name of funsies but haven't much enthusiasm for full-on coding, if that helps at all. I did have a job offer for a role installing and troubleshooting hospital IT equipment until about a week ago, but it's fallen through in favour of someone more qualified, so you can imagine why I'm asking. Fake edit: What does actually mean? The 'otj' I can guess at, but the y? Yomp? Yodel? Yakketysax?
Doctor_Fruitbat fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 13:58
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Fake edit: What does Year of the Job. I believe it started a few years back when a bunch of people in this thread all got sick of their jobs and made it their mission to look for something new. Now a lot of people use the phrase "yotj-ing" to mean looking for a new job.
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Feb 16, 2014 14:16
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YOTJ'ing means actually changing jobs, not merely looking.
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Feb 16, 2014 16:33
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Otherwise you can still be a goon in a well
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Feb 16, 2014 16:49
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:So if, say, I was looking to get into a sysadmin role, and was currently boning up for the A+ (I pretty much know enough to pass, I just need to save up the moneys), what cert or language/skills should I look into as a next step? By which I mean the most generally useful/appealing to employers. Some great resources right here in SH/SC are the certification thread, the home lab thread and Dilbert's Goon User Groups. You should start by deciding if you want to focus on the Windows or Linux side of things*. There's pros and cons to both; there's arguably more Windows jobs out there but the companies that are hiring for Linux will really come after you because there are less qualified candidates out there. For the Windows world, look into the MCSA: Windows Server certification track. PowerShell is the obvious programming language to learn, and Learn Windows PowerShell in a week of Lunches is an excellent resource for that. On the Linux side, the Red Hat certs are the most recognized and should be useful even if your job ends up not using a Red Hat distro. You'll want to look at the RCHSA and the RHCE certs. The choice of a programming language is less obvious here; at a bare minimum learn Bash shell scripting (this is more or less the Linux version of batch files). From there I'd suggest picking up Python, although Perl or Ruby aren't bad choices either. That you're comfortable with a language is more important than which language it is. Understanding networking fundamentals is also extremely valuable, even if you have no desire to go deep down that career path. The CCENT or Network+ certs are a good level of detail for a sysadmin to know. At least be comfortable with the material even if you don't end up taking the exam. I'll conclude by saying that while certs are useful and many jobs require (or effectively require) them, they are not the only way to go. I've been in IT for 8 years and a full-time sysadmin for 6 despite having zero certs. I started on an entry level helpdesk job at a smallish company and helped out the admin with simpler tasks when I had time. After a couple years of that and taking on increasingly challenging duties I was able to land a junior admin job and kept growing from there. Also I am totally going to start reading YOTJ as "yakkitysax on the job" * I've intentionally left out virtualization/VMware. As a sysadmin you should absolutely know what virtualization is, but going from zero to full-time VMware admin is a tall order since you need to know so much about network, storage, the guest OS's, etc. Docjowles fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 17:45
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Perfect stuff, thanks; I'm more of a Windows man so I'll start there. This thread has actually been really useful for getting my confidence up, particularly about the need for a good attitude etc. I'm good at first impressions and can definitely talk up my social skills and whatnot when needed. It's also confirmed my suspicions when a job listing seems to require a lifetime of broad experience just to get considered.
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Feb 16, 2014 17:57
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Docjowles posted:* I've intentionally left out virtualization/VMware. As a sysadmin you should absolutely know what virtualization is, but going from zero to full-time VMware admin is a tall order since you need to know so much about network, storage, the guest OS's, etc. I can speak from personal experience, dive into virtualization if you really want to find out how much you don't know. What the gently caress is an Eye Scuzzy?
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Feb 16, 2014 19:36
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:What the gently caress is an Eye Scuzzy?  Seriously though, Virtualization is a fascinating area to look into, but it really does touch every other part of the traditional IT landscape. As a Network Admin I'm always happy to work with a good Virtual admin type; the good ones can always tell me exactly what they need and why, and if I need something from them they know just how to set it up for me.
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Feb 16, 2014 20:50
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I usually end up telling the vmware guys what the problem is since I'm familiar with esx/vswitch/fiber interconnects, I should really add it to my resume.
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Feb 16, 2014 22:17
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Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:What's the procedure for handling another recruiter calling about the same position for which you've already accepted an offer from another recruiter? I keel you.
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Feb 16, 2014 23:04
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