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Much like demons and devils are evil given a living form, it is a plot hole given living form.
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Feb 16, 2014 05:50
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| # ? May 22, 2024 09:47 |
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What if it's a meta thing and we are the snarl? Answer: it would be a pretty stupid and flimsy metaphor.
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Feb 16, 2014 06:10
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Robviously posted:Oddly enough, it could be a really weird callback to the fact that Earth exists as an alternate plane of reality to Oerth, where Greyhawk takes place. There's also a few other planes mentioned, if I recall right, but Gygax all but said way back when that Earth is a place as far as D&D is concerned. Please tell me Earth existing in the Greyhawk canon has been used in some awful stories I can track down and read.
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Feb 16, 2014 06:13
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Parts Kit posted:Much like demons and devils are evil given a living form, it is a plot hole given living form. One of my friends ran with a DM who would pull this out if someone pointed out a plot hole.
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Feb 16, 2014 06:15
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ArchRanger posted:Please tell me Earth existing in the Greyhawk canon has been used in some awful stories I can track down and read. FR, not Greyhawk, but Elminster used to go to Earth to hang out with Ed Greenwood and drink his beer
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Feb 16, 2014 06:18
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Blackwing and the order both only looked in, Laurin reached in with her mind. A better question is why it reacted to Laurin amd not all the humans Redcloak threw in to the rift for research purposes Did Redcloak actually throw people into the Rift? He backed off when he was pressuring O-Chul I though. And the Tower wasn't actually as tall as the Rift was high. Redcloak was just going to throw them near and see if a tentacle reached out for them?
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Feb 16, 2014 06:33
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Tinyn posted:Did Redcloak actually throw people into the Rift? He backed off when he was pressuring O-Chul I though. And the Tower wasn't actually as tall as the Rift was high. Redcloak was just going to throw them near and see if a tentacle reached out for them? Catapults. We don't see them actually do it, or I believe any dialogue saying they did though.
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Feb 16, 2014 06:41
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Tinyn posted:Did Redcloak actually throw people into the Rift? He backed off when he was pressuring O-Chul I though. And the Tower wasn't actually as tall as the Rift was high. Redcloak was just going to throw them near and see if a tentacle reached out for them? He kind of implied that he already had been? But he hadn't learned anything, so he told O-Chul that if he spilled the beans they'd all be saved but if he couldn't, he'd keep pitching them in theoretically because it was better than any other information-gathering strategy they'd yet employed but really because he's Evil and tortures prisoners for funsies.
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Feb 16, 2014 07:04
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Dr. Buttass posted:He kind of implied that he already had been? But he hadn't learned anything, so he told O-Chul that if he spilled the beans they'd all be saved but if he couldn't, he'd keep pitching them in theoretically because it was better than any other information-gathering strategy they'd yet employed but really because he's Evil and tortures prisoners for funsies. But then why would he back down when O-Chul didn't have any info to provide? It makes it seem like Redcloak was bluffing and actually wasn't willing and/or able to throw prisoners into the Rift.
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Feb 16, 2014 07:18
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Tinyn posted:But then why would he back down when O-Chul didn't have any info to provide? It makes it seem like Redcloak was bluffing and actually wasn't willing and/or able to throw prisoners into the Rift.
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Feb 16, 2014 07:42
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He's a high level cleric couldn't he summon something to carry them or cast some kind of flying spell and carry them himself or cast some kind of flying spell on them and some kind of compulsion spell or have Xykon do one of those things. High level magic mans are not wanting for ways to move people around.
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Feb 16, 2014 07:42
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Tinyn posted:But then why would he back down when O-Chul didn't have any info to provide? It makes it seem like Redcloak was bluffing and actually wasn't willing and/or able to throw prisoners into the Rift. He thought that leaving them alive with the knowledge that a paladin would have let them die would demoralize them and spread discord among the prisoners. Instead the opposite happened, though, as from their perspective the goblins were torturing a paladin (they didn't even know any paladins had survived) and he didn't break no matter what.
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Feb 16, 2014 07:44
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That, or he came to realize before he was going to carry out his threat that O-Chul legitimately knew even less than he himself did as a result of the Sapphire Guard oaths, and decided throwing them in would be a waste.
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Feb 16, 2014 08:06
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Pseudoscorpion posted:I'm kinda getting the impression that it isn't that someone was close enough to get in; after all, there've been at least two times where that easily could have happened. I'm thinking it may be more what Laurin is: a psion. My guess is that that's actually a real planet in there, and the Snarl is effectively it's god or guardian deity. Why lash out at Laurin in particular, and not Blackwing or Roy and co.? There are really only two major differences between them: alignment (and I'm not gonna go there because I would laugh my rear end off if the Snarl turned out to be the ultimate cosmic grognard. "THIS DOESN'T FIT GYGAX'S VISION!" it would screech as it obliterates everything that isn't the tomb of horrors.
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Feb 16, 2014 08:36
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) and their abilities. So the Snarl senses something it doesn't recognize outside of its domain, and attacks it. And it doesn't recognize psionics.
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Tinyn posted:But then why would he back down when O-Chul didn't have any info to provide? It makes it seem like Redcloak was bluffing and actually wasn't willing and/or able to throw prisoners into the Rift. Roland Jones posted:He thought that leaving them alive with the knowledge that a paladin would have let them die would demoralize them and spread discord among the prisoners. Instead the opposite happened, though, as from their perspective the goblins were torturing a paladin (they didn't even know any paladins had survived) and he didn't break no matter what. Evil, remember? Never do something efficiently if you can get away with making someone suffer while you're at it.
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Feb 16, 2014 09:05
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Random Stranger posted:What if it's a meta thing and we are the snarl? Someone gets close enough to examine the Snarl and reveals it's made up of OoTS forum posts. OoTS was the "new world" in order to contain the worst of D&D fans before they could do any more damage.
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Feb 16, 2014 09:19
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VanSandman posted:gently caress if I know, but it doesn't seem to mind a huge rift existing above Well, Redcloak speculated back then that the remaining gates were suppressing the Snarl's awareness that the rifts were open, didn't he? Maybe this is the Snarl finally realising after the destruction of Girard's gate. Ursine Asylum posted:Yeah, you'd think that if an adventuring party can gate them, Xykon and co would just re-gate the rifts and keep going with their plans, unless it's a "these people knew how to do it and there's literally no evil spellcaster anywhere who could also do it" thing. I think that the original Order of the Crayon had to research how to create the gates, and it took them a long time to figure out how to do it. And they may have had the gods feeding them intelligence on how to seal them. I doubt it's written in Serani's journal, she's not one of the primary spellcasters.
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Feb 16, 2014 10:20
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Plus sealing them and assembling a Gate are two different steps (Kraagor was killed during or by a sealing; the Gates went up later.) Also I noticed that Mijung (Soon's wife who was killed by the Snarl) was also studying one of the rifts, possibly not unlike Laurin. Maybe it dislikes magic.
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Feb 16, 2014 10:29
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Lurdiak posted:I would laugh my rear end off if the Snarl turned out to be the ultimate cosmic grognard. "THIS DOESN'T FIT GYGAX'S VISION!" it would screech as it obliterates everything that isn't the tomb of horrors. Psionics were in 1st edition and had really terrible rules back then. Maybe the Snarl just knows that he wants none of that in his campaign.
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Feb 16, 2014 15:33
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I like that V and Roy just got to talk out things like reasonable human beings. I was worried they would put it off forever for some irrational reason and then it would of course eventually come back to bite them in the rear end. Obstacles that result from people just refusing to do the obviously reasonable thing are way too convenient and common in fiction for my taste.
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Feb 16, 2014 16:59
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Random Stranger posted:Psionics were in 1st edition and had really terrible rules back then. Maybe the Snarl just knows that he wants none of that in his campaign. Which setting is most known for psionics? Darksun. Darksun is also known for a critical lack of water. The Snarl is probably just tired of psithieves trying to siphon off his ocean.
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Feb 16, 2014 17:05
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Triple Elation posted:I like that V and Roy just got to talk out things like reasonable human beings. I was worried they would put it off forever for some irrational reason and then it would of course eventually come back to bite them in the rear end. Obstacles that result from people just refusing to do the obviously reasonable thing are way too convenient and common in fiction for my taste. I have to agree with this. Further, it's nice to actually see the conversation, since it's good for both of their characters. A lot of authors just won't give their heroes enough breathing room or time to have basic, important discussions, but it's also a bit disappointing when they have them but shuffle them off screen because they're concerned about repeating things the reader's already heard or just want to bring all their characters up to speed so they can hurry to the next plot point. If V and Roy had just disappeared below decks and then from that point on it was handwaved away that they'd talked it out, it might've been strictly faster and easier but we'd miss the chance to see V's sincere desire to atone and see how Roy's handling all these necessary evils he's dealing with in order to save the world.
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Feb 16, 2014 17:20
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Regalingualius posted:That, or he came to realize before he was going to carry out his threat that O-Chul legitimately knew even less than he himself did as a result of the Sapphire Guard oaths, and decided throwing them in would be a waste. Well, yes and no. He did realize that O-Chul knew nothing, but what I said also actually happened. Also he kept torturing O-Chul even after this, and in fact didn't really care much if O-Chul knew anything at all by that point; the whole thing is less "well I don't need to do this so I guess I won't be evil about it" and more "there is a better way to get what I want, and I'll get a little bonus doing it this way too" (though, again, that ended up backfiring, for what little that meant). Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 18:24
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Redcloak is most certainly evil, but he's still pragmatic. Those human prisoners are more useful as slaves hauling food around and sparing goblins from doing heavy work than as Snarl Food. The only reason he kept torturing O-Chul after realizing he had no intel to spare was to entertain Xykon long enough to let Gobbotopia stabilize and gain political influence. Which it certainly did after they squandered time looking for the phylactery, heh. As for his act of snuffing his brother in Start of Darkness, it was with great hesitation and sadness because doing so was the only way to ensure his mission from The Dark One would succeed.
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Feb 16, 2014 20:36
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I think there was also an element of self-awareness and Redcloak not wanting to literally be a moustache twirling cliché villain.
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Feb 16, 2014 21:04
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Colonel Cool posted:I think there was also an element of self-awareness and Redcloak not wanting to literally be a moustache twirling cliché villain. He literally says that nearly word for word.
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Feb 16, 2014 21:07
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I might be misremembering, but I thought he'd said or implied that he'd already tried throwing people in the rift before the ones he was threatening O-Chul with.
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Feb 17, 2014 00:23
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I think you're remembering Redcloak and Xykon killing goblins with the first gate (well, second, I guess).
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Feb 17, 2014 01:11
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Mniot posted:I think you're remembering Redcloak and Xykon killing goblins with the first gate (well, second, I guess). That's probably what it is. Still, that makes it so Laurin is the only one to do anything other than look with their eyes into the portal, since she was extending some kind of psychic tendril into it.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:16
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Mniot posted:I think you're remembering Redcloak and Xykon killing goblins with the first gate (well, second, I guess). The gate wasn't killing the goblins, the rune inscribed on the gate was doing it.
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Feb 17, 2014 01:25
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TheAceOfLungs posted:ETA: For what it's worth, Orion has long been my favorite constellation partially because it's the only one I could reliably find in the night sky. The rest all look like random dots with possibly seven or more Dippers and the occasional star that turns out to be an airplane.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:52
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ArchRanger posted:Please tell me Earth existing in the Greyhawk canon has been used in some awful stories I can track down and read. There is a n official module where the final part of the adventure has your party travel to an Earth musem to steal back St. Cuthbert's mace.
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Feb 17, 2014 05:43
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SirDippingSauce posted:There is a n official module where the final part of the adventure has your party travel to an Earth musem to steal back St. Cuthbert's mace. That was in Dragon magazine, wasn't it?
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Feb 17, 2014 05:51
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SirDippingSauce posted:There is a n official module where the final part of the adventure has your party travel to an Earth musem to steal back St. Cuthbert's mace. "Let's just go and grab these wands the security guards had on them." "Huh? A Wand of Kinetic Slugs"
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Feb 17, 2014 10:21
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wdarkk posted:Maybe it reacts to intent to study it? Like with Soon's wife. Zogundar posted:Also I noticed that Mijung (Soon's wife who was killed by the Snarl) was also studying one of the rifts, possibly not unlike Laurin. Maybe it dislikes magic. Yeah, the end did seem like a fairly blatant callback to #275, same pose and all. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 13:45
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Active vs. passive detection measures. It's quite hard to detect when you're looked at with passive systems, whereas you can detect if you're painted with active systems. Being nearby and looking at the rift is passive. That light would go through regardless of whether you're here or not. Using magic or psionic to probe inside, on the other hand, is active and can be detected (there are "detect magic" spell effects after all, but not "detect gaze"). And it's especially true here as she was trying to contact minds ("telepathically scanning") and she apparently ended up pinging the Snarl's mind. Biggest difference between Minjung's fatal picnic and this: the snarl tendrils don't end in claws.
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Feb 17, 2014 14:24
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So far, the only time the Snarl has lashed out has been to attack women. I'm thinking the Snarl is super sexist and actually got locked in its prison on account of being a tremendous douche bag.
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Feb 17, 2014 15:14
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Cat Mattress posted:Biggest difference between Minjung's fatal picnic and this: the snarl tendrils don't end in claws. We don't know if Soon was a reliable narrator so we can't know if the claws were literal or an embellishment of the retelling.
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Feb 17, 2014 15:16
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oobey posted:So far, the only time the Snarl has lashed out has been to attack women. I'm thinking the Snarl is super sexist and actually got locked in its prison on account of being a tremendous douche bag.
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Feb 17, 2014 15:18
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Who What Now posted:We don't know if Soon was a reliable narrator so we can't know if the claws were literal or an embellishment of the retelling. I'm guessing embellishment. If you look at the bottom of the panel, you can see one of the guards getting speared.
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Feb 17, 2014 15:23
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