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Now I'm trying to picture Curze singing Nyphetamine or Cthulhu Dawn as he tortures Vulkan Also...epilogue question of Vulkan Lives Would accidental planetary rentry be enough to kill him? I know the whole Vulkan lives is the theme but I can't imagine that even in the WH40k Universe that atmospheric incineration being survivable...even for a perpetual.
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Feb 16, 2014 07:02
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I don't know, the first thing that came to my mind was Tom Hiddleston.EyeRChris posted:
Nope, see the title of the book.
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Feb 16, 2014 07:10
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EyeRChris posted:Now I'm trying to picture Curze singing Nyphetamine or Cthulhu Dawn as he tortures Vulkan Wasn't Vulkan drowned in molten lava? What is worse reentry or death by lava? Etherway the whole perpetual idea is dumb as gently caress and got much worse when Nick Kyme decided to make Vulkan one. Has there been any news on ADB's talon of horus?
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Feb 16, 2014 07:38
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UberJumper posted:Wasn't Vulkan drowned in molten lava? What is worse reentry or death by lava? Perpetual probably just means they don't age and die. It was probably originally meant as a nod to the old sensei / star child fluff. The rest is alien technology / magic wolverine bullshit fuckery
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Feb 16, 2014 16:29
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Cream_Filling posted:Perpetual probably just means they don't age and die. It was probably originally meant as a nod to the old sensei / star child fluff. My understanding was that perpetuals are loosely people who are functionally immortal but more specifically people with hyper-regeneration or reincarnation factors. So far the Big E, Grammaticus, Vulkan, and Ollanus Pious are all confirmed for such. And, they have a magic
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Feb 16, 2014 17:28
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FrozenDorf posted:My understanding was that perpetuals are loosely people who are functionally immortal but more specifically people with hyper-regeneration or reincarnation factors. So far the Big E, Grammaticus, Vulkan, and Ollanus Pious are all confirmed for such. And, they have a magic No, the term is left highly ambiguous but language-wise it's implied that the reincarnation is something the aliens gave Grammaticus aside from him already being born unaging and immortal. Same with Persson, who doesn't seem to be able to reincarnate at all and was born that way. It's also unknown whether it's even possible to kill any Primarch against their will without warp magic. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 17:42
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Cream_Filling posted:No, the term is left highly ambiguous but language-wise it's implied that the reincarnation is something the aliens gave Grammaticus aside from him already being born unaging and immortal. Same with Persson, who doesn't seem to be able to reincarnate at all and was born that way. Fair enough. I knew that Grammaticus was implied to have achieved his Perpetual status through Cabal fuckery, his other gifts being natural, but had just assumed that while the methods were different, the results were the same. Liveware fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 18:32
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Baron Bifford posted:Seriously? Why not tell us a few?
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Feb 16, 2014 19:08
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Cream_Filling posted:It's also unknown whether it's even possible to kill any Primarch against their will without warp magic. I suddenly started wondering that myself, before remembering that Fulgrim took off Ferrus Manus' head in the old-fashioned swordy way.
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Feb 16, 2014 21:17
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After plowing through most of the horus heresy one thing stands out. No, it's not that the astartes and primarchs have the emotional range of a 12 year old boy - it's that every ship in the imperial navy seems to have a dueling pit and practice chambers. Every single one. Do the SMs ever run into the problem of not having these amenities or even fitting through doorways and halls while wearing their armor?
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Feb 16, 2014 21:37
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One Legged Cat posted:I suddenly started wondering that myself, before remembering that Fulgrim took off Ferrus Manus' head in the old-fashioned swordy way. Fulgrim killed Ferrus Manus in the old fashioned swordy way using the demon-possessed warp-forged sword that had corrupted him, at the behest of the demon inside of it, as he was wreathed in warp-fire and lightning and such. It is safe to say that the warp was involved.
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Feb 16, 2014 21:42
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de_dust posted:After plowing through most of the horus heresy one thing stands out. No, it's not that the astartes and primarchs have the emotional range of a 12 year old boy - it's that every ship in the imperial navy seems to have a dueling pit and practice chambers. Every single one. Out of all the things i've ever read in this thread this just seems kinda bizzare to me. The astartes sole purpose is to fight things!!!
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Feb 16, 2014 21:52
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de_dust posted:After plowing through most of the horus heresy one thing stands out. No, it's not that the astartes and primarchs have the emotional range of a 12 year old boy - it's that every ship in the imperial navy seems to have a dueling pit and practice chambers. Every single one. Aside from all of them being warships ferrying troops, meaning that they'd have the necessary facilities (including training rooms) as part of their design, even if they didn't they could just be improvised. Not fitting isn't a concern since Imperial ships have wide corridors when it comes to the spaces the upper crew are meant to occupy; ventilation ducts and narrow passages are the realm of maintenance gangs.
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Feb 16, 2014 22:00
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de_dust posted:After plowing through most of the horus heresy one thing stands out. No, it's not that the astartes and primarchs have the emotional range of a 12 year old boy - it's that every ship in the imperial navy seems to have a dueling pit and practice chambers. Every single one. Considering one of their primary purposes is boarding missions, if anything the size of the Astartes and their armor was probably determined by the standard STC ship doorway size.
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Feb 17, 2014 03:24
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Hey whats the word on the Word Bearers onmibus by Anthony Reynolds? I don't recall seeing it mentioned here so I assume its mediocre and bland.
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Feb 17, 2014 04:54
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Cream_Filling posted:Considering one of their primary purposes is boarding missions, if anything the size of the Astartes and their armor was probably determined by the standard STC ship doorway size.
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Feb 17, 2014 06:59
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Baron Bifford posted:If you go on a modern warship, the doors are barely big enough for one man to go through, never mind a giant in Terminator armor. Modern warships have to exist in the finite space of a planet and have to cream a bunch of stuff in them. Ships in 40k are 10km long and crews in the thousands. I don't think we can compare.
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Feb 17, 2014 07:11
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pentyne posted:Hey whats the word on the Word Bearers onmibus by Anthony Reynolds? I don't recall seeing it mentioned here so I assume its mediocre and bland. I enjoyed it a lot personally, I don't think most here share that view though.
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Feb 17, 2014 07:17
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I'm fairly certainty most of the Imperium's current warships were commissioned around or after the creation of the Astartes, and therefore the ships were designed with them in mind.
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Feb 17, 2014 07:21
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Where does the average citizen of the Imperium think the universe came from? The Imperial Truth wiped out the religions of Old Earth, and with them, their origin stories about the universe. Biblical creation, the Hindu cosmic egg: all of that poo poo is forgotten, right? Then the Emperor dies (mostly) and his cult elevates him into a god-like figure who sees all, knows all, etc. much like a Biblical god. But no one ever seems to ascribe the creation of the universe to him. Many of the worlds of the Imperium have an understanding of Old Earth and know that their worlds were colonized by Earth. But do these people have a scientific view of creation? There's an awful lot of mysticism mixed in with Imperial science (machine spirits, prayers to bolters, and the like) and the complete stagnation of technology suggests that the Imperium in general has a tenuous grasp of science. So what do they believe?
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Feb 17, 2014 08:09
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More important, what sort of afterlife do they believe in? What actually happens to a human soul after death?
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Feb 17, 2014 08:12
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Baron Bifford posted:More important, what sort of afterlife do they believe in? What actually happens to a human soul after death? Ooh that's also a good question.
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Feb 17, 2014 08:13
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UncleSmoothie posted:Where does the average citizen of the Imperium think the universe came from? They actually have a pretty good grasp of science from a perspective of practical necessity, it's just blended with mysticism and semi-intentional obfuscation. More primitive societies would have whatever beliefs they developed twisted by the Imperial Creed, but for more post-industrial societies cosmology is likely akin to modern scientific view, only that there *is* a God, a physical God that watches and judges all from His throne on Holy Terra, and keeps the darkness that lurks between the stars at bay. As for afterlife, a common theme seems to be that the faithful join with the Emperor after death.
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Feb 17, 2014 08:31
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Nephilm posted:As for afterlife, a common theme seems to be that the faithful join with the Emperor after death. By sheer coincidence, I just cracked open the first Grey Knights book and found this. Ben Counter posted:“Marine after Marine died under sorcerous lightning or the talons of rampaging greater daemons and Ganelon himself began the Prayer of Purification, readying the souls of his men for the inevitable journey after death to join the Emperor in the final battle against Chaos.” So for at least some Astartes, the idea is that you join the Emperor to fight 'the final battle' against Chaos.
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Feb 17, 2014 08:36
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Given what we "factually" know regarding the workings of the warp, human believers either joining with the Emperor, or their souls at least being protected by him the horrors of the warp upon death, isn't far-fetched.
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Feb 17, 2014 08:56
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As for science, people in the Imperium believe that science, progress, and critical thinking are dangerous and immoral things. Blind obedience and knowing only what you need to know to do your job is considered good. One reason this is so is because at the start of the Age of Strife, sentient machines rose up and tried to wipe out humanity (yes, W40K rips off Dune and the Terminator films). AI is now forbidden but it created a general superstition against the value of science itself. Another reason is Tzeentch, the Chaos God of change, progress, and hope. A human who tries to innovate and change things for the better might become tainted by Chaos even if he doesn't deliberately worship the Chaos God. There's actually a heretical underground group called the Logicians who believe in science and pursue underground experiments in the dangerous delusion that man can innovate his way out of his problems. The Inquisition and the Mechanicum persecute them mercilessly. All things considered, I find the Imperium's hatred of science isn't adequately justified in the fluff. Just roll with it. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 09:09
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Baron Bifford posted:As for science, people in the Imperium believe that science, progress, and critical thinking are dangerous and immoral things. Blind obedience and knowing only what you need to know to do your job is considered good. They don't hate science though, old technology is revered and treated like holy relics, they have just lost the knowledge about how to successfully replicate most of it. This is why teleporters and Terminator armor is so rare.
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Feb 17, 2014 10:38
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Well, the Dark Heresy books I've read explicitly say that science is considered sinful. I think the 6th edition rulebook also says this. Remember that the Imperium has been around for 10,000 years and has been stuck at more or less the same level since the Horus Heresy. This is not a culture that embraces technological progress. They could have reinvented all this lost stuff instead of chasing after STCs.
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Feb 17, 2014 11:15
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Old technology is revered, and new technological advances continue to be made - however, general progress has stagnated because the system in place highly centralizes scientific development and is a titanic and complex endeavor to pass the checks required for adoption, often taking centuries before distribution is considered - and then politics get involved. Basically, take a design for a particular piece of machinery, and make it undergo the catholic process for canonization scaled up to a million-world galactic empire. And sidestepping this process is heretical. However, localized variations in technology have leeway so say cogitators from certain parts of the galaxy perform better, but lasguns from other parts are more accurate and power efficient, and so on and so forth. People continue to innovate in small ways, but there is widespread exchange of information, and knowledge is closely guarded and easily lost.
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Feb 17, 2014 11:29
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That said, they really don't like A.I. Hence, Machine Spirits.
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Feb 17, 2014 15:39
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No, that would be "hence servitors". Their dislike of AI is why they lobotomize criminals and poor people and other undesirables to make servitors for tasks that a low-level AI could perform perfectly well.
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Feb 17, 2014 16:13
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Khizan posted:No, that would be "hence servitors". Their dislike of AI is why they lobotomize criminals and poor people and other undesirables to make servitors for tasks that a low-level AI could perform perfectly well.
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Feb 17, 2014 17:05
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That one kickin' rad Crimson Fists Land Raider comes to mind Machine spirits are not truly artificial intelligence, and it's not really clear where the difference from 'strange mysticism' to 'actual truth' comes in besides that machine spirits in some capacity exist.
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Feb 17, 2014 17:32
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I realise that this is mega-ambiguous for lots of reasons (multiple authors with conflicting viewpoints, none of this being actually real, etc) but my impression of Machine Spirits was that they are AIs, just really limited ones that needed a mind/machine interface with a human to get much done, due to the Imperium's fear of AIs. Sometimes Machine Spirits are just abstracted away in the books but sometimes they appear to be actual beings (the Night Lords ship in ADB's trilogy, the Imperator-class Titan in Helsreach) with their own motivations. Either that's an AI or there actually is supernatural spirits within toasters and stuff.
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Feb 17, 2014 17:35
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There is room for critical analysis, though For example, the technology either predates the AI ban or postdates it. If it predates it and they are blindly inserting true AI into these devices, why are there user interfaces at all? If their creation postdates in, they wouldn't really know how or want to add true AI into them. Did anyone have those Lego Mindstorm things? It seems a lot more like that. In addition, as weird as it sounds, there is definitely some level of spirituality involved.
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Feb 17, 2014 17:37
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:For example, the technology either predates the AI ban or postdates it. If it predates it and they are blindly inserting true AI into these devices, why are there user interfaces at all? If their creation postdates in, they wouldn't really know how or want to add true AI into them.
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Feb 17, 2014 18:03
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Baron Bifford posted:The tech-priests can identify machines with AI by how they behave. Machine spirits have feelings (so you have to kiss and hug them regularly so that they don't break down) but they don't have a will of their own. ETA: clarifying quote VVVVV Arquinsiel fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 18:07
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Who is that directed towards?
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Feb 17, 2014 18:12
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I was suggesting to SUPER NEAT TOY that the tech-priests would have ways of detecting AI.
Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Feb 17, 2014 |
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Feb 17, 2014 18:18
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:There is room for critical analysis, though For me, this was always crystal-clear. The technology predates the AI-ban and everyone is just blindly inserting true AI without really knowing what they're doing. The user interfaces are there because whatever the tech-priests copied their technology of from had it. It would be hilarious if many machines of the empire didn't even need user input to function, it's just that no-one knows about the AIs in it or how to properly work with them to make this possible. This is me WILDLY SPECULATING, of course. 
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Feb 17, 2014 18:26
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