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Ragnar34 posted:I don't know, it seemed pretty obvious to me the first time someone spelled it out. I mean, I was sceptical at first, but it made a lot of sense to me, and it helped that every internet resource seemed to agree that some of the most broken cards in Magic history were the ones that allowed you to spend life on other things. Then there was the fact that two mana would kill one creature (terror), give you one land (rampant growth), draw maybe 1.5 cards (accumulated knowledge), or gain you 7 life (hero's reunion). The cards themselves think life is worth less than practically anything else in the game. I started playing back when one mana would get you 3 life, 3 damage, or 3 mana. Channel might have existed, but that was clearly a card of last resort; only one guy in my group was willing to play with them. The concept of life-as-cost (that you would want to spend) didn't really kick in until later on in the game's history; Necropotence was considered bad until it broke things wide open (IIRC Inquest called it one of the worst cards in Ice Age). It took people a while to adapt. It didn't even get used in a tournament deck for months. At the time I was also confused why blue didn't have a card that got you three of something, having started in Revised and not ever having seen an Ancestral Recall.
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Feb 18, 2014 01:09
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A "modern power pack" is sort of on the other extreme from "no reprints at all." A hopefully completely reasonable solution is just "Modern Masters, except we keep it well-stocked on LGS shelves for at least a year, and when it goes out of print we follow it up with another similar product in a year or two." One problem is that Wizards's printing department isn't very nimble. They keep up an excellent throughput of stuff, but when they need to react to new information--e.g., "Modern Masters was a good idea, we should print a bunch more of it"--it's like an oil tanker coming about. Is the problem purely that space on the printers is booked solid and there's noplace else in the world worthy of printing Magic cards? It sure isn't that they need to do design or card layout, at least not for Modern Masters specifically.
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Feb 18, 2014 01:21
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JerryLee posted:One problem is that Wizards's printing department isn't very nimble. They keep up an excellent throughput of stuff, but when they need to react to new information--e.g., "Modern Masters was a good idea, we should print a bunch more of it" They said from the beginning that it was only getting one print run though. They very deliberately undershot on Modern Masters and it was a way smarter move than "print all the cards".
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Feb 18, 2014 01:24
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theironjef posted:Short term gain vs. long term. Precisely this. The Reserved List is just one part of a 'contract' between the community and Wizards. Not a formal one, nothing beyond a gentleman's agreement., but violating that would be a massive loss of face to Wizards, whose policy has always been very open, and to present a certain image. This way, they still get to control the supply on almost every card (except the ones on the Reserved List, basically), keep the speculators/shops happy (since they are part of the drive of the game), and allow supplemental products to help with demand (part of controlling the supply). It's good business, and part of why Magic's growth is like 25% a year (minor aside: I don't think that 25%/year is sustainable down the line, but the game is doing very well now). Personally, I think that Modern Masters was testing the waters when it comes to reprints, and that they have more of them down the line. Conspiracy could very well be their first foray into viral marketing, leaving up more avenues for supplemental products. JerryLee posted:A hopefully completely reasonable solution is just "Modern Masters, except we keep it well-stocked on LGS shelves for at least a year, and when it goes out of print we follow it up with another similar product in a year or two." Yeah, I think (hope?) that this is the direction they're headed. They seem to be aware that MMA was received extremely well, but supply was an issue, so I doubt they'd repeat the same mistake. They won't be going all Chronicles, but if/when they repeat it, I'd say a year or two down the line, supply won't be the problem.
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Feb 18, 2014 01:30
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Literally The Worst posted:They said from the beginning that it was only getting one print run though. They very deliberately undershot on Modern Masters and it was a way smarter move than "print all the cards". Fair enough, I should have spoken more generally of a Modern Masters-like product. Unless they also said specifically that this one wet fart (in terms of supply) was all the injection that Modern staples were getting, ever, in which case I guess I can go ahead and rip the bandaid off my hopes.
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Feb 18, 2014 01:30
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JerryLee posted:Fair enough, I should have spoken more generally of a Modern Masters-like product. Unless they also said specifically that this one wet fart (in terms of supply) was all the injection that Modern staples were getting, ever, in which case I guess I can go ahead and rip the bandaid off my hopes. Aaron Forsythe, in Modern Masters Explained, posted:If the set works and accomplishes what we want—more Modern players—we'll contemplate making another set like it some time down the road. But for now, our plan is to stick with our small printing and keep a close eye on what happens.
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Feb 18, 2014 01:35
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Wizards printed a very astute amount of Modern Masters. They managed to sell a significant amount of product to a niche of its customers, at a significant premium (double what they usually pay), without interrupting the pipeline of products that sell to the millions of casual players who actually make them money. Wizards isn't going to keep making 250 Million a year constantly re-printing poo poo for a bunch of whiny nerds who are upset they can't have all of the cards they want for a dollar.
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Feb 18, 2014 01:47
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Stinky Pit posted:Wizards printed a very astute amount of Modern Masters. They managed to sell a significant amount of product to a niche of its customers, at a significant premium (double what they usually pay), without interrupting the pipeline of products that sell to the millions of casual players who actually make them money. And they did all this while allaying fears that they'd crater the prices of expensive cards. MMA is loving impressive.
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Feb 18, 2014 01:51
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Stinky Pit posted:Wizards isn't going to keep making 250 Million a year constantly re-printing poo poo for a bunch of whiny nerds who are upset they can't have all of the cards they want for a dollar. I wonder if there's a forum where you can have a conversation with people who actually fit this strawman (or anything remotely close to it for that matter) because as far as I know nobody in these threads has said that, not even me.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:02
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Dude, its hyperbole, this isn't DnD relax. People have cracked jokes about buying 2000 dollar Legacy Decks for 50 bucks, and people blackmailing Maro with Roseanne scripts.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:07
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I really don't see what Chronicles 2 would have been a big issue except among a few. Chronicles 1 was a 'debacle' among a select few who actually had a chance to open more than 5 packs of Legends. For 99.9% of us playing at the time, it was like mana from heaven. I loved the loving poo poo out of Chronicles and I would love 'Modern/Legacy Staples: The boxload Unlimited'.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:23
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OssiansFolly posted:I sold a playset of Brimaz and 10 tokens for $162 on ebay this weekend. Seems like a great deal considering the TCG going rate. Out of curiosity, do different tokens have different rarities? Or is the wave elemental token being .75 and the Voice token being $4 just a matter of how many packs of THS have been opened compared to DGM? JerryLee posted:Fair enough, I should have spoken more generally of a Modern Masters-like product. Unless they also said specifically that this one wet fart (in terms of supply) was all the injection that Modern staples were getting, ever, in which case I guess I can go ahead and rip the bandaid off my hopes. Part of that is that they wanted MMA to be more than just a random collection of re-prints. While trying out boosting circulation outside of cards in Modern was obviously priority #1, I'm sure that more time went into figuring out the draft environment than went into figuring out which format staples should go in. As an aside, it wouldn't terribly surprise me to find out that Conspiracy was, at least in part, inspired by testing at WotC showing that a set designed nearly from the start to be drafted was really fun. EDIT: If you really don't get why significantly boosting supply in a secondary product could be a really bad thing, go re-read all the articles that were coming out when the counterfeits were scaring people. If WotC boosts 'goyf supply to the point where they can be had for even $50, retailers are going to take a massive hit on each one. My understanding is that a lot of game stores keep the lights on with supplies and singles rather than sealed product. Retailers are going to be real goddamned annoyed if Wizards decides to depreciate half their modern stock by 50% overnight. Boxman fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 02:27
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Tokens have the same rarity as the card they were printed for, don't they? Like, saprolings are common, but Voice is rare?
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Feb 18, 2014 02:36
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Smart retailers will be fine, others won't, life will go on and more people will play more formats of magic because they like to and it will be affordable.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:38
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toadee posted:I really don't see what Chronicles 2 would have been a big issue except among a few. Chronicles 1 was a 'debacle' among a select few who actually had a chance to open more than 5 packs of Legends. For 99.9% of us playing at the time, it was like mana from heaven. I loved the loving poo poo out of Chronicles and I would love 'Modern/Legacy Staples: The boxload Unlimited'. You know what's great? Having your stock devalued like a motherfucker because that 150 dollar card is now a twenty dollar card. It's literally nothing to do with being smart or not, having expensive things suddenly be worth less than you paid for them is bad.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:40
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Literally The Worst posted:You know what's great? Having your stock devalued like a motherfucker because that 150 dollar card is now a twenty dollar card. It's literally nothing to do with being smart or not, having expensive things suddenly be worth less than you paid for them is bad. For some. But eh, screw those people.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:41
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Literally The Worst posted:You know what's great? Having your stock devalued like a motherfucker because that 150 dollar card is now a twenty dollar card. It's literally nothing to do with being smart or not, having expensive things suddenly be worth less than you paid for them is bad. On the other hand, a 150 dollar card suddenly becoming 20 means more people will buy it. Supply & demand, yo.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:45
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XyrlocShammypants posted:For some. But eh, screw those people. I'm talking about stores, not speculators (but evne then, you're dumb, because part of the appeal is the idea that these cardboard rectangles hold some form of monetary value). Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:On the other hand, a 150 dollar card suddenly becoming 20 means more people will buy it. Yes this makes up for the money you just lost when all of your stock dropped to a quarter of its price. Supply and demand, yes.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:45
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I own a lot of expensive cards. But guess what? If the price of my expensive cards goes down, it means I can buy even MORE cards to play with!
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Feb 18, 2014 02:46
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XyrlocShammypants posted:For some. But eh, screw those people. Or Wizards could continue a sensible re-print policy that doesn't screw any of their retail partners or collectors and only bothers a small portion of their customer base. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 02:46
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JerryLee posted:I wonder if there's a forum where you can have a conversation with people who actually fit this strawman (or anything remotely close to it for that matter) because as far as I know nobody in these threads has said that, not even me. It's called The Source, and holy poo poo were there some terrible opinions being thrown around in the thread about the Chinese counterfeits. The amount of people saying "gently caress everything else, I want my staples for cheap, and who cares if they're fake if no one can tell the difference," and the like was staggering.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:48
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Im sure some retailers that aren't diversified enough to make money elsewhere/with the new influx of people who can play the game they want to play will take a hit. Some will fail. This happens literally any time something shakes up any retail market. Others will not fail, they will thrive, new places will come about to take advantage of the new shift in the market dynamics and overall, more people will be playing these awesome formats because they can. This is better for us, so really I think the massive net positive of availability far outweighs the hit some retailers will face. Also I don't care one single bit about individuals who have money 'invested' or whatever in Magic. That's a risk you take for storing money in the form of cardboard art rectangles.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:49
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toadee posted:Im sure some retailers that aren't diversified enough to make money elsewhere/with the new influx of people who can play the game they want to play will take a hit. Some will fail. This happens literally any time something shakes up any retail market. Others will not fail, they will thrive, new places will come about to take advantage of the new shift in the market dynamics and overall, more people will be playing these awesome formats because they can. This is better for us, so really I think the massive net positive of availability far outweighs the hit some retailers will face. Also I don't care one single bit about individuals who have money 'invested' or whatever in Magic. That's a risk you take for storing money in the form of cardboard art rectangles. It's not just "some" retailers though. It's literally any retailer who does a lot of business in singles. Screwing over the people who sell your product to other people is a real bad way for WotC to stay in business.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:50
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XyrlocShammypants posted:For some. But eh, screw those people. Yeah, fuckin' stores. Hate 'em.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:50
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JerryLee posted:edit: Speaking of Unknown Shores, one trend I'd love to see the brakes thrown on is functional reprints with different names in places where there was no actual need to reflavor them (I'm sure Theros has grottoes). Searing Spear to Lightning Strike is the one that bugs me the most. You've even got a city full of people that are always depicted with spears in hand. How hard can it be to make the have a flaming one?!
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Feb 18, 2014 02:51
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Literally The Worst posted:It's not just "some" retailers though. It's literally any retailer who does a lot of business in singles. Screwing over the people who sell your product to other people is a real bad way for WotC to stay in business. Then why does Starcity want WOTC to end the reserve list and print Legacy staples, devaluing their entire stock of them?
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Feb 18, 2014 02:51
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Literally The Worst posted:You know what's great? Having your stock devalued like a motherfucker because that 150 dollar card is now a twenty dollar card. It's literally nothing to do with being smart or not, having expensive things suddenly be worth less than you paid for them is bad. Hasbro's stock won't lose major stock value because they reprint cards.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:52
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Literally The Worst posted:It's not just "some" retailers though. It's literally any retailer who does a lot of business in singles. Screwing over the people who sell your product to other people is a real bad way for WotC to stay in business. This is a hugely faulty argument. SCG is probably the largest retailer and most likely to take a massive hit from high profile reprints; they support abolishing the reserve list. Obviously, SCG has a lot of room to fall and still survive, but a Mom and Pop place won't have enough single stock to make this an issue. If they do, and they aren't selling them as quickly as they buy them, they're doing it wrong. A store should be cycling through their stock, not holding onto it.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:53
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toadee posted:Then why does Starcity want WOTC to end the reserve list and print Legacy staples, devaluing their entire stock of them? "Printing Legacy staples" does not necessitate "Printing Chronicles 2.0: Staples Edition."
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Feb 18, 2014 02:53
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Literally The Worst posted:"Printing Legacy staples" does not necessitate "Printing Chronicles 2.0: Staples Edition." Im sure they'd do just fine, including suddenly making a killing running 2x the number of SCG Legacy events, if not more. They'd also suddenly sell a bunch more of all kinds of other cards that didn't get reprinted, they'd sell more in general, because more people would be playing. Whatever, I don't really care what others opinions are, the result is going to likely be somewhere in the middle, trying to please everyone and just pissing us all off in the process.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:55
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toadee posted:Whatever, I don't really care what others opinions are, the result is going to likely be somewhere in the middle, trying to please everyone and just pissing us all off in the process. NObody was happy with Modern Masters at all. Nobody.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:56
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Literally The Worst posted:NObody was happy with Modern Masters at all. Nobody. Bullshit. Sources?
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Feb 18, 2014 02:57
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What a Judas posted:Bullshit. Sources?  I was being facetious because the claim that there's no middle ground between "no reprints" and "Chronicles" that will please anyone is loving asinine.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:58
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It's not a drop in singles prices that are going to hurt retailers. WOTC and Shops make their money selling booster packs of the latest set. I don't know why its so hard to understand that Wizards makes more money selling a new set with some random loving dragon to 8 Million middle schoolers than it will ever make selling desirable reprints to the likes of us. toadee posted:They'd also suddenly sell a bunch more of all kinds of other cards that didn't get reprinted, they'd sell more in general, because more people would be playing. No. The vast majority of magic players don't even play standard, they don't know what it is. The barrier to entry for formats like Legacy and Modern hurts the growth of those formats but not the game. A set of re-prints isn't going to increase sales anywhere like a new mutliplayer product or some new set based on norweigan folk music or whatever. So Wizards prints the stuff that makes them money, and peppers the re-prints a niche group of customers clamors for into that product a few pieces at a time. Its good business, and it's sensible. Other companies wouldn't even care about reprints. Wizards does a great job balancing the kind of product that makes them happy(money) and keeps their hardcore audience happy, they deserve a ton of credit and its a shame all Magic players ever do is complain about card prices. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 02:58
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Literally The Worst posted:NObody was happy with Modern Masters at all. Nobody. Everyone I know personally was extremely upset that they weren't able to get their hands on any product at all at MSRP, and even at 2x MSRP, they were still limited to a handful of packs. Basically exactly the same reason everyone I knew was pissed off about Legends when it first came out.
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Feb 18, 2014 02:58
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toadee posted:Everyone I know personally was extremely upset that they weren't able to get their hands on any product at all at MSRP, and even at 2x MSRP, they were still limited to a handful of packs. Basically exactly the same reason everyone I knew was pissed off about Legends when it first came out. The print size was literally the only problem with MMA and it was a thing they were incredibly transparent about from day one. From the very start, they made it clear that it was a small print run because they weren't sure how it would go over and they'd rather print too little and fix it next time than print too much and whoops can't fix that. It still did a great job of introducing more copies of important cards into the market without smashing goyfs to forty bucks.
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Feb 18, 2014 03:00
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Ragnar34 posted:Tokens have the same rarity as the card they were printed for, don't they? Like, saprolings are common, but Voice is rare? Yes the tokens are of the same rarity as the card that makes them. Voice is a mythic so the voice elemental token is rarer than say a Grove of Guardian elemental.
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Feb 18, 2014 03:02
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What a Judas posted:This is a hugely faulty argument. SCG is probably the largest retailer and most likely to take a massive hit from high profile reprints; they support abolishing the reserve list. Yea stores make money on singles by buying at buy price and reselling quickly and/or by volume.
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Feb 18, 2014 03:04
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If you guys want to see a truly horrible reprint policy, look at konami and yugioh. Those cards hold almost zero value, they will not only reprint a card the same year it was released, they may reprint it in the same set! One at super ultra mega rare and one at common. Then they'll go and reprint it in a precon. Game shops will have stacks and stacks of staples all over. The fact that wizards cares about the secondary market at all puts them miles ahead of the competition.
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Feb 18, 2014 03:09
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Bugsy posted:Yes the tokens are of the same rarity as the card that makes them. Voice is a mythic so the voice elemental token is rarer than say a Grove of Guardian elemental. Can we have a Token Masters then so I can get some tokens for weirder poo poo? Throw in some classics like 0/1 black Serf, 1/1 red Survivor and 3/4 red/green Stangg Twin, and call it a set.
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Feb 18, 2014 03:11
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