Warhammer: After 18 years, finally an end

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Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

I'm planning to read the Gothic War novels, since they revolve around space combat and found This.

Another series with a third novel planned but never written. What the gently caress is wrong with WH40K, this is the second series I encounter with the last third missing?

Edit:

Are there other novels concentrating on space combat? I know that Last Flight of the Eisenstein also contains space combat, but are there some other novels/shortstories closer to "modern" WH40K I have missed? Those two can't be only ones of their kind, right?

Libluini fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Feb 17, 2014

# ? Feb 17, 2014 23:47

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# ? May 8, 2024 23:50

TheArmorOfContempt: Nov 29, 2012; Did I ever tell you my favorite color was blue?

Libluini posted:

I'm planning to read the Gothic War novels, since they revolve around space combat and found This.

Another series with a third novel planned but never written. What the gently caress is wrong with WH40K, this is the second series I encounter with the last third missing?

Edit:

Are there other novels concentrating on space combat? I know that Last Flight of the Eisenstein also contains space combat, but are there some other novels/shortstories closer to "modern" WH40K I have missed? Those two can't be only ones of their kind, right?

The Execution Hour and Shadowpoint were some of the earlier books I read, and I remember them being pretty drat good. This being said more than 10 years of 40K novels passed through my hands since then, so I may be remembering with rose-colored glasses.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 23:59

One Legged Cat: Aug 31, 2004; DAY I GOT COOKIE

The Titan comics are great, by the way.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 00:04

pentyne: Nov 7, 2012

Libluini posted:

I'm planning to read the Gothic War novels, since they revolve around space combat and found This.

Another series with a third novel planned but never written. What the gently caress is wrong with WH40K, this is the second series I encounter with the last third missing?

Edit:

Are there other novels concentrating on space combat? I know that Last Flight of the Eisenstein also contains space combat, but are there some other novels/shortstories closer to "modern" WH40K I have missed? Those two can't be only ones of their kind, right?

It seems surprising they never had a 3rd novel written, I bet the sales of the omnibuses generate a fair amount of their book revenue. I wonder if someone high up at GW just hated the author and refused to pay the contract for a third book.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 01:13

Hot Dog Day #82: Jul 5, 2003; Soiled Meat

It gets mentioned pretty much every page but ABD's Night Lords trilogy has just about everything that makes 40k fun. In this instance, the leader of the Night Lord's vessel the protagonist lives on (without spoiling anything) is an accomplished ship-to-ship "void battle" strategist, and consequently more than a few chapters are about space combat and chaos marine boarding actions.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 01:59

OXBALLS DOT COM: Sep 11, 2005; by FactsAreUseless; Young Orc

Saw a bunch of posts, was hoping it was something cool. Turns out it's just Baron Bifford again.

UncleSmoothie posted:

Negative, but having looked it up just now -- that's an in-universe source, so I'm guessing it states that lasguns have Machine Spirits? There's still an important difference between the author of the Primer believing a gun has a Machine Spirit (as Super Neat Toy points out in the Andrej example a couple of posts up) and a novel/sourcebook portraying a Machine Spirit actually having a will of its own.

The "Machine Spirit" of a lasgun can be explained away as a temperamental piece of equipment. The "Machine Spirit" of a ship (which actually talks to people and attempts to enforce its own will) is much harder to explain without calling it an AI or an actual supernatural entity.

If you have zero understanding of how either works, is there really any appreciable difference? A machine spirit can be both the platonic ideal of how a machine works and it can refer to an actual AI that is part of this function. Arguably no distinction is drawn between the platonic ideal and design of an animate thing and the presence of what we would call an actual intelligence/mind. Both are essential animating principles and thus souls of a sort.

Improbable Lobster posted:

Canon is overrated, IMO.

Seriously nerds are disgustingly obsessed with their meaninglessly complicated lorewanks. Versus making a good story that fits with an overall atmosphere and vibe.

OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Feb 18, 2014

# ? Feb 18, 2014 02:18

Waroduce: Aug 5, 2008

This is totally unrelated to Warhammer, but pretty :black101:

I think yall might like this

quote:

Before the beginning of the siege, Mehmed II made an offer to Constantine XI. In exchange for the surrender of Constantinople, the emperor's life would be spared and he would continue to rule in Mistra, to which, as preserved by G. Sphrantzes, Constantine replied:

To surrender the city to you is beyond my authority or anyone else's who lives in it, for all of us, after taking the mutual decision, shall die out of free will without sparing our lives.

He led the defence of the city and took an active part in the fighting alongside his troops in the land walls. At the same time, he used his diplomatic skills to maintain the necessary unity between the Genovese, Venetian and the Greek troops.
He died on 29 May 1453, the day the city fell. His last recorded words were: "The city is fallen and I am still alive",[16] and then he tore off his imperial ornaments so as to let nothing distinguish him from any other soldier and led his remaining soldiers into a last charge where he was killed.[17]
Soldiers were sent hastily to search amongst the dead and the first that was believed to be the emperor's, a body that had silk stockings with an eagle embroidered in it, the head was decapitated and marched around the ruined capital. However, it failed to gather any recognition from the citizens of Constantinople.[18] It is a historical fact that there was no living eyewitness to the death of the Emperor and that no one of his entourage survived to offer any credible account of his death.[19] At the least; the eighty-eighth emperor of Rome had while not in life, at least escaped the grip of the Ottomans in death, and that in the end he was very likely buried in a mass grave alongside his soldiers.

from the roman history thread

# ? Feb 18, 2014 02:38

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

He vanished because he was also the Emperor :ssh:

# ? Feb 18, 2014 02:47

TheArmorOfContempt: Nov 29, 2012; Did I ever tell you my favorite color was blue?

Cream_Filling posted:

Seriously nerds are disgustingly obsessed with their meaninglessly complicated lorewanks. Versus making a good story that fits with an overall atmosphere and vibe.

The Lathe Worlds Dark Heresy supplement has some excellent stuff on how the Priesthood of Mars works. It pretty much outlines everything that is considered tech heresy, and it seems pretty clear that when we are talking about A.I. that isn't considered heresy you're speaking of augmented creatures(least things that have organic components as their basis for intelligence), or very simply preprogrammed devices such as drones. As you stated the average Imperial citizen or tech-priest likely doesn't understand the difference between the "spirits" in his gun, and the "spirit" of a Titan.

As with anything in 40K there is a fine line between heresy and not-heresy, which is exactly what makes the Mechanicus so loving cool...

# ? Feb 18, 2014 03:00

Impaired Casing: Jul 1, 2012; We don't make mistakes, just happy little accidents.

I had chance to read the short story "The Wolf of Ash and Fire", about the Big E and Horus fighting together against Orks on some scrapworld.

Boy oh boy, is the Big E overpowered. Spoilers about the ending.

The Emperor falls through the world as it's tearing itself apart, the reactor core at the heart of the scrap world going nova. Horus jumps in after him, and they land down near the reactor. There are big Orks down there. Really big. Bigger than the Emperor. The emperor charges straight into them, cutting and killing, taking a moment to slice the arms and legs off a big one, then carries its torso in one hand as it is screaming only to wade into more Orks to kill them. He fights the big one, and seems to be losing as Horus rushes in, tearing it's arm off. The Emperor then decides it's time to stop playing around, and destroys everything with his mind. He glows golden, shoots light out from his body, and melts the Ork boss and everything around him, snuffing out their souls.

When it's just Horus and the Emperor left, they realize the core is still going to explode. Horus says he cannot believe it ends this way, and the Emperor just tells him to relax. He then tears open a hole in reality, opening the warp in front of them, sending the core into the aether then closing it back up, saying they are done there, and leaves.

The Big E kicks rear end.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 03:25

VanSandman: Feb 16, 2011; SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

Impaired Casing posted:

I had chance to read the short story "The Wolf of Ash and Fire", about the Big E and Horus fighting together against Orks on some scrapworld.

Boy oh boy, is the Big E overpowered. Spoilers about the ending.

The Emperor falls through the world as it's tearing itself apart, the reactor core at the heart of the scrap world going nova. Horus jumps in after him, and they land down near the reactor. There are big Orks down there. Really big. Bigger than the Emperor. The emperor charges straight into them, cutting and killing, taking a moment to slice the arms and legs off a big one, then carries its torso in one hand as it is screaming only to wade into more Orks to kill them. He fights the big one, and seems to be losing as Horus rushes in, tearing it's arm off. The Emperor then decides it's time to stop playing around, and destroys everything with his mind. He glows golden, shoots light out from his body, and melts the Ork boss and everything around him, snuffing out their souls.

When it's just Horus and the Emperor left, they realize the core is still going to explode. Horus says he cannot believe it ends this way, and the Emperor just tells him to relax. He then tears open a hole in reality, opening the warp in front of them, sending the core into the aether then closing it back up, saying they are done there, and leaves.

The Big E kicks rear end.

I need to read this. What's it in?

# ? Feb 18, 2014 03:28

Baron Bifford: May 24, 2006; Can't post for 2 years!

Cream_Filling posted:

If you have zero understanding of how either works, is there really any appreciable difference? A machine spirit can be both the platonic ideal of how a machine works and it can refer to an actual AI that is part of this function. Arguably no distinction is drawn between the platonic ideal and design of an animate thing and the presence of what we would call an actual intelligence/mind. Both are essential animating principles and thus souls of a sort.

If a machine spirit can be an AI, at what point do the tech-priests consider it an abomination?

There's a line on Lexicanum that goes: "A.I. is not to be mistaken for the machine spirit that has parallels but basal differences - namely, no ability to enhance itself." There's no citation for this but it's an interesting line.

Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Feb 18, 2014

# ? Feb 18, 2014 06:15

The Rat: Aug 29, 2004; You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.

Cream_Filling posted:

Saw a bunch of posts, was hoping it was something cool. Turns out it's just Baron Bifford again.

I had the opposite reaction. 56 new posts? Bet it's Baron Bifford again. :suicide:

# ? Feb 18, 2014 06:16

Baron Bifford: May 24, 2006; Can't post for 2 years!

Hah! Somebody said something similar about me in the Dredd movie thread. That thread died soon after I hosed off.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 06:42

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

That might have something to do with the movie coming out, being seen, being on DVD and then not doing anything else ever again. Best leave this thread and see what happens, for science.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 06:59

Baron Bifford: May 24, 2006; Can't post for 2 years!

I can see just by looking from the last few pages that I am NOT entirely responsible for the latest spurt of posts.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 07:08

EyeRChris: Mar 3, 2010; Intergalactic, all-planetary, everything super-supreme champion

The talk of AI caused something to pop up into my head because I can't remember how this wrapped up. What happened to the AI murder tank/bot that was unleashed by the Horus aligned tech priests that destroyed most of the loyalist titan legions on Mars? I know it was chasing the people heading for the Tomb of the Dragon but I can't remember what happened and the only other story it was in was the short story leading up to it being unleashed on Mars.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 07:44

lite_sleepr: Jun 3, 2003; by Radio Games Forum

There is no such thing as machine spirits. Mankind has simply forgotten how so much of its ancient, advanced technology works that in our primitive devolution we ascribe the unknown to the supernatural. Just like we did before the coming of the Emprah. Lightning crashes and starts a forest fire? We probably didn't sacrifice enough big breasted red headed virgins to the sky god. Lasgun misfires and blows up in your face? The machine spirit was mad you didn't lube it up in enough sacred unguents. Never mind that lightning is a perfectly normal act of nature, and lasguns are mass produced by the billions. For something as advanced as a titan or suit of relic terminator armor that hasn't been made for millenia, a certain amount of mystery is sure to surround such items because humanity has just forgotten how they function.

I found it really amusing in Helsreach when they tried to reawaken some titan killer suit. It turns out that their rituals and solvents were just pre-operation maintenance.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 09:41

Nephilm: Jun 11, 2009; by Lowtax

For simpler devices it's a myth, but for advanced hardware packing expert systems or rudimentary AI (Titans, Land Raiders, spaceships, SM power armour), when the term is used that's what they're referring to, as it is a tangible thing.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 10:09

lite_sleepr: Jun 3, 2003; by Radio Games Forum

Nephilm posted:

For simpler devices it's a myth, but for advanced hardware packing expert systems or rudimentary AI (Titans, Land Raiders, spaceships, SM power armour), when the term is used that's what they're referring to, as it is a tangible thing.

So it's the rudimentary AI used in machines to help humans control them. I can't imagine a single dude controlling something as colossal as a titan by himself, so some AI was needed to augment the finite capability of a human brain.

In the Night Lords trilogy, Octavia talks to ships that have been in the warp and used by renegade marines and filled with traitors for eons, so anything she talks to in a ship is probably a real living warp creature and not just some sort of AI.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 10:14

Baron Bifford: May 24, 2006; Can't post for 2 years!

Going back to that line I quoted from Lexicanum, and AI is an intelligence that can actually learn and enhance itself, as opposed to an intelligence that can only perform pre-programmed automated functions. So I suppose if your Land Raider suddenly starts listening to Mozart and takes up Shakespearean acting as a hobby, then you have problems.

It's like comparing Data to the Enterprise's computer.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 10:29

MariusLecter: Sep 5, 2009; NI MUERTE NI MIEDO

You know, a lot of people took a bolter round to the head for the kind of talk in this thread.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 11:44

Baron Bifford: May 24, 2006; Can't post for 2 years!

What can I do that's even worse? Ponies? :v:

# ? Feb 18, 2014 12:00

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Baron Bifford posted:

Going back to that line I quoted from Lexicanum, and AI is an intelligence that can actually learn and enhance itself, as opposed to an intelligence that can only perform pre-programmed automated functions. So I suppose if your Land Raider suddenly starts listening to Mozart and takes up Shakespearean acting as a hobby, then you have problems.

It's like comparing Data to the Enterprise's computer.

Or the AI is completely solipsist, only doing the bare minimum to do it's duty and retreating into a self-made dreamworld the rest of the time. To take your example, if the AI listens to Mozart and does acting as a hobby, no-one would notice. Because the Land Raider-AI of course does this inside of a hidden simulation in it's artificial mind. And as long as no Super-Magus comes directly from Mars to interface his mind with the machine spirit of a random, well-working Land Raider, no-one will know or care about it.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 12:07

lite_sleepr: Jun 3, 2003; by Radio Games Forum

Outside of alien tech or warp touched, I don't think anyone has suggested AI or machine spirits are self aware.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 12:14

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Aziraphale posted:

Outside of alien tech or warp touched, I don't think anyone has suggested AI or machine spirits are self aware.

Well, I did. :v:

# ? Feb 18, 2014 12:33

Baron Bifford: May 24, 2006; Can't post for 2 years!

The only actual AIs I know of in the setting are used by the Tau. Machine spirits are just the fanciful superstition of the tech-priests. The Eldar have ghosts in some of their machines (literally). Chaos has bound daemons.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 12:55

hopterque: Mar 9, 2007; sup

Baron Bifford posted:

The only actual AIs I know of in the setting are used by the Tau. Machine spirits are just the fanciful superstition of the tech-priests. The Eldar have ghosts in some of their machines (literally). Chaos has bound daemons.

Machine Spirits aren't just superstition, any time titan combat is involved it's very clear that machine spirits are a thing. There's more instances than I can think of in the books where a large titan's machine spirit attempts to wrest control or rebel or do its own thing against the will of the Princeps controlling it. Similar things are also mentioned a number of times in relation to land raiders and ships and other large, complicated vehicles.

e: Like they're not intelligent or anything close to AI, but I can think of a few scenes where specifically the machine spirit of a large (emperor class or above) Titan does stuff against the will of the Princeps because it's excited by combat. Often they're referred to as ornery or stuff like that, generally kind of annoyed by the fact that someone is telling it what to do.

hopterque fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Feb 18, 2014

# ? Feb 18, 2014 13:08

Baron Bifford: May 24, 2006; Can't post for 2 years!

OK, I'll let this issue rest. We're bickering over semantics.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 13:11

ed balls balls man: Apr 17, 2006

Shut the heck up idiots. Any thoughts on David Annandale? I read somewhere he has a HH novel coming out, then checked out his work. He has a few eNovellas and a SM battles book but haven't read any of it myself.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 14:35

TheStampede: Feb 20, 2008; "I'm like a hunter of peace. One who chases the elusive mayfly of love... or something like that."

Since my passing comment from the other day seems to have sparked off a debate, I'll at least clarify what my understanding was when making it.

The part of A.I. that is bad is the Intelligence part. When talking about the Machine Spirit of some advanced vehicle or weapon, be it a titan or power armor, it is described as animalistic or instinct based. They don't think, they react. The way I see it (and this was a tough one for me to suss out for a while), the Machine Spirit of a titan is kind of the, "eyes in the back of the head", or "sixth sense". The pilot can focus it's intellect on commanding and interpreting information, and the Machine Spirit makes sure no one sneaks up on it, or that it accidentally trips over it's own legs. Maybe it oversees a lot of basic internal regulations that are unimportant to the crew as well. Basically, it's A.I, or at least it serves the general function, but it doesn't command or control anything. 'Cause while everyone likes the newest, flashiest way to kill things still, that whole debacle with the Iron Men really soured them on the idea of robits thinking too much for themselves.

Also, not everything that an imperial or tech-priest says has a machine spirit, has a Machine Spirit, proper. There is a lot of lost knowledge or mis-remembered instructions that have devolved into things like praying to your bolter or burning incense for a successful restart of a monitor.

TheStampede fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Feb 18, 2014

# ? Feb 18, 2014 15:17

Mechafunkzilla: Sep 11, 2006; If you want a vision of the future...

Read The Kaban Machine, it's self-aware AI that's verboten, not just any kind of semi-autonomous programming. Jesus fuckin' Christ guys.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 15:20

berzerkmonkey: Jul 23, 2003

Baron Bifford posted:

If a machine spirit can be an AI, at what point do the tech-priests consider it an abomination?

An AI, at least as far as 40K is concerned is a self-aware machine, capable of learning and growing. The AI of a Land Raider is more akin to well programmed machine, capable of carrying out simple tasks, but not actually self-aware. You can easily program a machine to run a routine that asks "Are the guys in the crew compartment broadcasting the correct identifiers of Space Marines?" Yes/No? If "yes" then respond to their commands. If "no" seal compartment and flood with poison gas."

Titans are different matter - as stated, they have some sort of hybrid predator/gestalt consciousness. It used to be that Warhounds were wolves and Warlords were grizzly bears (I think it was Abnett who first wrote about this) but Mechanicus seems to imply all the Titans are wolf (or other pack animal) based. I find it especially entertaining when the Reaver gets blasted and the Warhounds are running in circles whining over the pack member injury.

Also, if you want to know what the Mechanicus considers an AI abomination, read Mechanicus. There is an AI that a Mechanicus explorator crew is forced to work with, and the Mechanicus are pretty repulsed by the thing.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 15:23