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mikey posted:At no time, in no way, has CCP ever said this. What was said is that carriers should not be hard-countered by roughly equal numbers of subcapitals. The fighter nerfs alone indicate the exact opposite of what you just said. So then what the hell is the point of a carrier if the only fight they win against subcaps is even numbers? evilweasel posted:Carriers are supposed to be vulnerable to ewar (they always had weak sensor strength as well for their size and used to be jamming targets). And again, this is completely ignoring the rest of the fleet that is actually doing the damage and keeping the FYF alive. To hear you, Grath, or the rest talk you'd think the CFC flew nothing but celestises and that nobody had ever heard of a megathron. Not that only fly them but the numerical advantage is what allows you to fly both a FYF and a DPS fleet. You couldn't bring a pure DPS fleet to bear against capitals in the same style so numbers allow that diversity. That is why I always circle back to both numbers and FYF. Damps are to strong right.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:15
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FoF posted:Not that only fly them but the numerical advantage is what allows you to fly both a FYF and a DPS fleet. You couldn't bring a pure DPS fleet to bear against capitals in the same style so numbers allow that diversity. That is why I always circle back to both numbers and FYF. Damps are to strong right. We win because we have both superior numbers and superior tactics. What you're asking is that you be allowed to buy victory despite being outnumbered with worse tactics, and that's bad game balance. FoF posted:So then what the hell is the point of a carrier if the only fight they win against subcaps is even numbers? When properly supported, it's a great source of both dps and logistics. You believe you should be able to field an all-carrier fleet and win against any subcap fleet. That's bad game design and not how EVE should work. Carriers should be a significant advantage to a capital and subcapital fleet but vulnerable when caught without support. evilweasel fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 01:16
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evilweasel posted:We win because we have both superior numbers and superior tactics. What you're asking is that you be allowed to buy victory despite being outnumbered with worse tactics, and that's bad game balance. What made drone assist a worse tactic besides your own desire for it to be? evilweasel posted:When properly supported, it's a great source of both dps and logistics. You believe you should be able to field an all-carrier fleet and win against any subcap fleet. That's bad game design and not how EVE should work. Carriers should be a significant advantage to a capital and subcapital fleet but vulnerable when caught without support. But due to lock times a carrier fleet wouldn't be able to keep its support fleet alive in the type of combat we experience today. Lets scale the numbers up: my theoretical fleet is 250 carriers 125 ecm and 125 dps. Yours is 500dps 250ecm. Your 500dps can clear all my subcaps and my carriers can do nothing to protect them. E: As a reminder I am currently winning at eve and have no horse in this fight. I don't give a poo poo if N3 gets curb stomped and am firmly in the camp of death to all supers. Titans were loving stupid the day they were introduced. FoF fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 01:17
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FoF posted:What made drone assist a worse tactic besides your own desire for it to be? Drone assist was bad from a balance perspective by making ewar against the slaved carriers useless. That removed one of the core vulnerabilities of a carrier with absolutely no tradeoff for the slaved carrier - especially when assisted to an ewar-immune ship. The only valid criticism I've seen of damps is the difficulty of gimping your fit to make yourself more ewar-immune: a ship can fit ECCM mods in its lows and mids and use eccm implants and through those tradeoffs sacrifice some potential for more ear immunity. Ships are less effectively able to make tradeoffs to counter damps since it's only sensor boosters and those don't stack well enough. There are other issues with the slowcat doctrine that are explored in the most recent TM.com article on the subject concerning the over-effectiveness of sentries. It is bad, for example, that slowcats can easily blap dictors.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:23
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In general, the only time when numbers don't eventually win is when there are no static goals involved. There have always been, and will always be small groups of highly-skilled, well-funded, coordinated players harassing and inflicting extremely disproportionate damage on much larger entities, often in fights where they are outnumbered 3:1 or worse. The problem, as MickeyFinn said, is when you expect this to extend to a situation with static goals with the expectation of capital escalation (sov warfare)-- a situation which largely nullifies pilot skill and always favors numbers. All of the advantages or imbalances that allow a much smaller group to have a significant impact in static-goal warfare are temporary, at best. Eventually, any larger entity that can adapt on an economic or skillpoint-level will be able to match or exceed the smaller group at those same things. Meanwhile, everyone who doesn't already have a foothold in nullsec has exactly zero chance against either group as long as money and alliance-level assets (e.g. giant cap fleets, supercapitals) dominate sov warfare. Stop whining about numbers, and get out of the sov warfare game. The last 8 years have been an example of what eventually happens to all small 'elite' groups that try to play within the current sov mechanics. FoF posted:So then what the hell is the point of a carrier if the only fight they win against subcaps is even numbers? Mobility? Logistics? Support? Triage? Carriers are better than subcaps or any other capital at literally everything except cap vs cap combat and straight up beating subcap forces at a 3:1 ratio, and properly supported carriers are still worth nearly 3 times their weight in subcaps. I fail to see how any of the carrier's limitations are complaint-worthy - they're ridiculously good and stupidly versatile.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:26
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evilweasel posted:There are other issues with the slowcat doctrine that are explored in the most recent TM.com article on the subject concerning the over-effectiveness of sentries. It is bad, for example, that slowcats can easily blap dictors. This is actually less a problem with sentries and more a problem with drone bay size on carriers. That whole article didn't address the issue that sentries can be destroyed. No other weapon type suffers from the ability of the enemy to destroy them so for them to be inherently better it makes sense. The tracking computer change was needed and I doubt any intelligent person would argue against it. What I am sure we can agree is this whole problem revolves around the fact of CCPs inability or lack of desire to balance capitals and along with that fighters. If fighters weren't complete poo poo and actually were useful for carriers something may come of it. mikey posted:Mobility? Logistics? Support? Triage? Carriers are better than subcaps or any other capital at literally everything except cap vs cap combat and straight up beating subcap forces at a 3:1 ratio, and properly supported carriers are still worth nearly 3 times their weight in subcaps. I fail to see how any of the carrier's limitations are complaint-worthy - they're ridiculously good and stupidly versatile. We covered this before in the last thread but "Space Winnebago" is not a valid role for the carrier. And as I explained in my above theoretical example due to the way alpha works carriers can not play as logistics to subcapitals because their friendly subcaps will die before the carrier can save it. Yes that works at the small level for people like R&K but it does not scale up. A properly supported carrier is a myth when the enemy has a larger subcap fleet. FoF fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 01:26
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FoF posted:We covered this before in the last thread but "Space Winnebago" is not a valid role for the carrier. And as I explained in my above theoretical example due to the way alpha works carriers can not play as logistics to subcapitals because their friendly subcaps will die before the carrier can save it. Yes that works at the small level for people like R&K but it does not scale up. It's far from the only role carriers would have without their current sentry mechanics. You're taking a doom-and-gloom view on the possible removal (or slight reduction in effectiveness, really) to ONE of the carrier's many advantages, when in fact any nerf to carrier drone capabilities would almost certainly come with a buff to fighters - at least to the point where they are effective against battleships. They already are to some extent when you're willing to bring some subcap support, though I'll concede that using Huginns to paint and web probably doesn't scale up well to the 200+ carrier bloc warfare level. I'll repeat again: expecting a 4000-person bloc to hold its own against a ~30-50,000 person bloc in the current sov system is ludicrous at best, and that N3+PL managed to hold out as long as they did is amazing and probably a testament to how imbalanced that supercaps+carriers combo still is. The sov system definitely needs to change, but the solution to making smaller entities relevant is definitely not keeping capitals and carriers the way they are.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:37
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Did we win?
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Feb 21, 2014 01:41
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FoF posted:FYF Jammers function out to 200km so short range dps isn't an option. What?  I forgot to add a mindlink to this picture; actual stats are 100km optimal, 150km lock range. Gwyneth Palpate fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 01:49
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Glory of Arioch posted:What? What is it if you add boosters?
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Feb 21, 2014 01:50
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smg77 posted:What is it if you add boosters? Note the presence of an Eos boosting the ship in the bottom. e: Actually, whoops, I forgot to put in a mindlink in that eos. That bumps it up to 100km optimal 150km lock range.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:51
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FoF posted:We covered this before in the last thread but "Space Winnebago" is not a valid role for the carrier. And as I explained in my above theoretical example due to the way alpha works carriers can not play as logistics to subcapitals because their friendly subcaps will die before the carrier can save it. Yes that works at the small level for people like R&K but it does not scale up. A properly supported carrier is a myth when the enemy has a larger subcap fleet. The triage carrier is so useful for subcaps that PL specifically bargained for the right to bring in a few sentry carriers for their "subcap" fleets in b0tlrd.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:51
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Glory of Arioch posted:Note the presence of an Eos boosting the ship in the bottom. Fleet and Squad boosters don't make a difference? Or is that covered by the Eos? (I don't really know how boosting works)
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Feb 21, 2014 01:52
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smg77 posted:Fleet and Squad boosters don't make a difference? Or is that covered by the Eos? (I don't really know how boosting works) The eos has all the appropriate gang bonuses that affect a celestis in its ewar role, so I just added it. I could add a vulture and a claymore to add siege/skrimish bonuses, but felt it unnecessary for the example. Also like I noted above I forgot to put a mindlink in the eos so the actual stats are 100km optimal / 150km lock range.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:54
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smg77 posted:Fleet and Squad boosters don't make a difference? Or is that covered by the Eos? (I don't really know how boosting works) Nope, you can only receive a bonus once. Fleet and wing boosters just expand the bonuses you could be receiving.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:54
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Glory of Arioch posted:What? Don't forget that there's also a variant that fits a sebo (or in another variant, a signal amplifier). It obviously doesn't affect optimal, but should let you lock out a bit farther.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:04
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Noob question: I've been playing EVE for about a week, and most of my skills are focused on logistics and trading... if I want to apply to goonwaffe in 4-5 months when I'm not a complete retard anymore, is there a common core of skills or specific ship I should be working towards? I'm liking EWAR thus far, mainly because it's extremely cheap in skills and ISK, but surprisingly effective against players with much better equipment and ability.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:10
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kirtar posted:Don't forget that there's also a variant that fits a sebo (or in another variant, a signal amplifier). It obviously doesn't affect optimal, but should let you lock out a bit farther. With the 3disruptor 1 sebo setup, and a perfectly skilled Eos booster and good long range targeting skills, you can push your falloff out to 180km, which is the absolute ragged edge of what the Celestis can do, and it is also how far out slowcats can hit with Wardens. If they get inside 180km they evaporate, and if they are outside of 180km their damps are severely reduced in effectiveness because they will miss over half of the time.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:13
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Omi no Kami posted:if I want to apply to goonwaffe in 4-5 months when I'm not a complete retard anymore, Keep posting and not talking like a pubbie and you should be good. Anything you want to skill in will be useful (except Phoenix). Just do something you will enjoy because if you don't, you will burn out even faster.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:19
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i do cocaine posted:With the 3disruptor 1 sebo setup, and a perfectly skilled Eos booster and good long range targeting skills, you can push your falloff out to 180km, which is the absolute ragged edge of what the Celestis can do, and it is also how far out slowcats can hit with Wardens. If they get inside 180km they evaporate, and if they are outside of 180km their damps are severely reduced in effectiveness because they will miss over half of the time. I see an all V sebo celestis with perfect EOS as 208k lock range (targeting range script of course) and 105+135 for the phased muons.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:20
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Alright, so there's no need to have any kind of extremely high-level combat ability when I join? I'm just asking now because I know it can take 3-5 months to train decent skills for some of the bigger ships, much less good ones.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:20
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I will admit I completely forgot to take in account the ship itself lock range and not the range of the disruptors.evilweasel posted:The triage carrier is so useful for subcaps that PL specifically bargained for the right to bring in a few sentry carriers for their "subcap" fleets in b0tlrd. In engagements that are limited due to b0tlrd and not full coalition vs coalition fights, then yes a triage carrier is really good. mikey posted:I'll repeat again: expecting a 4000-person bloc to hold its own against a ~30-50,000 person bloc in the current sov system is ludicrous at best, and that N3+PL managed to hold out as long as they did is amazing and probably a testament to how imbalanced that supercaps+carriers combo still is. If 2000 of those 4000 show up to defend their space and 3000 of the 40000 show up to take it who is actually fighting harder for it?
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Feb 21, 2014 02:22
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Omi no Kami posted:Alright, so there's no need to have any kind of extremely high-level combat ability when I join? I'm just asking now because I know it can take 3-5 months to train decent skills for some of the bigger ships, much less good ones. You can show up in a t1 fit rifter and still benefit the fleet, don't worry too much about it.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:24
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FoF posted:If 2000 of those 4000 show up to defend their space and 3000 of the 40000 show up to take it who is actually fighting harder for it? The 3000 since they made more friends.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:29
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Omi no Kami posted:Alright, so there's no need to have any kind of extremely high-level combat ability when I join? I'm just asking now because I know it can take 3-5 months to train decent skills for some of the bigger ships, much less good ones. Nope, lots of people from this forum join with brand new accounts and are useful right away.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:29
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That is awesome news, as I've been having the most fun puttering around in trade stations and antagonizing people by making and selling mammoths way under value... thanks for the feedback! 
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Feb 21, 2014 02:31
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Omi no Kami posted:Noob question: I've been playing EVE for about a week, and most of my skills are focused on logistics and trading... if I want to apply to goonwaffe in 4-5 months when I'm not a complete retard anymore, is there a common core of skills or specific ship I should be working towards? I'm liking EWAR thus far, mainly because it's extremely cheap in skills and ISK, but surprisingly effective against players with much better equipment and ability. We're going to be changing our Doctrine (Our selected ships that we use in Strategic Ops) once Drone Assist finally gets nerfed (Or so I hear, I don't make these decisions). First off, you will probably find High-sec boring or whatever in the meantime. Would highly suggest joining some sort of newbie-friendly group, like EVEUni or Brave Newbies or RvB or whatever; I've never been outside the loving embrace of Goonwaffe, so I couldn't tell you who is better, I just know that EVE PvE tends to be poo poo, especially in High Sec. Second.... Goonwaffe doesn't care about your skill aptitudes... But let's say you want to be useful? First 4-5 months should be spent polishing your survival and fitting skills while doing your thing. You'll want Mechanics, Hull-whatever, and Shield-whatever (The things that increase your HP) to V. You'll want the basic Grid and CPU skills to V. You'll want Drones to V, and Weapon Upgrades to V, as well as Advanced Weapon Upgrades to IV. Get your capacitor skills in order, IVs or Vs where relevant. You should train all racial frigates and guns to IV. Get your navigation skills in order, should probably have everything at IV (Though you can probably afford to leave the MWD one at III). Now, with all that said... Ships that will be used? Newbee tackle frigates are -always- welcome, not always useful though. Logistics (Both T1 logi cruisers and T2) are always in demand, and if you dump all the god forsaken skills it takes to be cap stable in a T2 Logistics, while also getting Logi V, then you will be in high demand for every fleet and basically get paid to welp your ship (You won't welp it often though, because you'll be fairly hard to hit and on drugs to make you harder to hit). Interdictors are almost always in demand, with very loose fitting requirements for reimbursement. Speaking of, Logi and Interdictors always get preferred reimbursement as long as you follow the fitting rules, which means you won't go broke flying things. Interceptors are almost always welcomed as well... keep in mind you'll want to find out what an Interceptor does on fleets (They get warp in points and tackle, among other things). Ewar is highly desired, though the flavors and amount of demand change based on the ability for fleets to apply Ewar. But really? Just fly whatever is fun, because you're probably near the point of burn out if you've been in High Sec for 4-5 months. Once you trick the auth team into approving your application into Goonwaffe, there are no expectations of "420NOSC0P31337PVP", merely an expectation that your posting will probably be better than those of WIDOT members and that you're probably going to be lazy and do whatever, setting the low bar upon which to judge everyone else for minimum participation.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:34
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FoF posted:If 2000 of those 4000 show up to defend their space and 3000 of the 40000 show up to take it who is actually fighting harder for it? The guys that put in the huge amount of effort to build and maintain that coalition so they'd have 3000.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:42
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=323511 Peak Gevlon right here, you can't beat this. "Could you imagine an alliance recruiting thousands of people, just to use them for wars they didn't mean, for a master they don't even like? A pet alliance without SRP, without good killboard, without ratting space? That would be some serious scam. Ladies and Gentlemen, let me introduce Red versus Blue!" goodness fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 02:46
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BeAuMaN posted:We're going to be changing our Doctrine (Our selected ships that we use in Strategic Ops) once Drone Assist finally gets nerfed (Or so I hear, I don't make these decisions). First off, you will probably find High-sec boring or whatever in the meantime. Would highly suggest joining some sort of newbie-friendly group, like EVEUni or Brave Newbies or RvB or whatever; I've never been outside the loving embrace of Goonwaffe, so I couldn't tell you who is better, I just know that EVE PvE tends to be poo poo, especially in High Sec. Awesome, thank you! I've been focusing on the economic part thus far precisely becausePvE and highsec is somewhat boring- I'm waiting on an application to EVE Uni right now (they got slammed this month- their chat channel says that they're currently processing apps submitted on feb 9), and sometime next week when I get time to finish training CPU Management V I was going to fit a cloak on a tiny, cheap T1 frigate and start arbitraging high-value cargo in lowsec to start getting experience with being hunted down and murdered for my loot. As far as fleet activities go, right now something like ewar, scouting in a covert ops ship, or now that you've told me about it logistics all sound quite fun, as I like the idea of being a force multiplier quite a lot.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:47
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Omi no Kami posted:Awesome, thank you! I've been focusing on the economic part thus far precisely becausePvE and highsec is somewhat boring- I'm waiting on an application to EVE Uni right now (they got slammed this month- their chat channel says that they're currently processing apps submitted on feb 9), and sometime next week when I get time to finish training CPU Management V I was going to fit a cloak on a tiny, cheap T1 frigate and start arbitraging high-value cargo in lowsec to start getting experience with being hunted down and murdered for my loot. Don't join EVE-Uni. I am deadly serious. Join Groon, and poo poo up Syndicate every day. There is no activity requirement for Groon, and they will teach you things you need to survive in Nullsec, and they provide what help they can to their newbies. In EVE-Uni, you will spend more effort in the interview to get in than you would in actually applying to a real job, and their playstyle leaves a lot to be desired. If you get into Eve UNI you will probably quit playing EVE in short order. Groon will be a million times more fun, and you may even like it and stick with EVE long term because of that decision. http://greatergoon.com/showthread.php?t=1470 <---- go to this link, and follow these directions exactly, and TimNeilson will take care of you. orange juche fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 02:55
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FoF posted:If 2000 of those 4000 show up to defend their space and 3000 of the 40000 show up to take it who is actually fighting harder for it? Eve doesn't hand out awards for effort. It rewards those who work the smartest, which in sov warfare means distributing the burden of fighting for space across as many people as possible to prevent burnout, cover all timezones, control the impact of losses, and to be able to protect your rear end when a second front crops up.
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Feb 21, 2014 03:00
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i do cocaine posted:Don't join EVE-Uni. I am deadly serious. Join Groon, and poo poo up Syndicate every day. There is no activity requirement for Groon, and they will teach you things you need to survive in Nullsec, and they provide what help they can to their newbies. In EVE-Uni, you will spend more effort in the interview to get in than you would in actually applying to a real job, and their playstyle leaves a lot to be desired. If you get into Eve UNI you will probably quit playing EVE in short order. Can Groon people join Goonwaffe ?
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Feb 21, 2014 03:15
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i do cocaine posted:Groon will be a million times more fun, and you may even like it and stick with EVE long term because of that decision. Fun sounds like fun, so I'm registering on the forum now... one of the fields is for people who referred you to the groon, mind if I list you?
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Feb 21, 2014 03:17
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goodness posted:Can Groon people join Goonwaffe ? There's nothing that says no. As long as you aren't a shitlord and meet all the auth requirements, I would doubt that the auth team would have a problem with it. Expressly joining Groon with the intent of joining GoonWaffe and declaring that you are using Groon as a holding corp won't generate much goodwill, but Groon is a good group and they know how to have fun. The general path of people joining Groon goes two ways: 1: They join, go hang out in Syndicate, and enjoy nullsec pvp. 2: Or they join, stay in highsec running level 4s in their Golem and burn out in a month. Omi no Kami posted:Fun sounds like fun, so I'm registering on the forum now... one of the fields is for people who referred you to the groon, mind if I list you? I'm not in Groon so I don't know if you could use me as a referral, I am just trying to save you from the pain of joining EVE-Uni. They used to be good, but they're pretty bad as far as actual advice for how to enjoy the game goes at this point.
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Feb 21, 2014 03:26
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goodness posted:Can Groon people join Goonwaffe ? So long as you don't treat Groon like a holding corp while you wait to play in the "real" goon corp, aren't an insufferable shitlord and meet the other requirements, Vyst has been known to let it slide.
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Feb 21, 2014 03:36
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i do cocaine posted:I'm not in Groon so I don't know if you could use me as a referral, I am just trying to save you from the pain of joining EVE-Uni. They used to be good, but they're pretty bad as far as actual advice for how to enjoy the game goes at this point. Awesome, I appreciate the advice... just didn't want to cheat you out of the free waffles or whatever else they give people for feeding new meat into the grinder
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Feb 21, 2014 03:38
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I was in eve-uni awhile ago. Just join Groon . Flying around Syndicate getting blown up is way more fun than requesting permission from some director to undock and be very careful using the fits listed on their wiki. Some of them are pure  .Also, I love the Hictor nullified-ship special bubble idea. Half of me thinks that the special bubble script used for catching nullified ships should not be able catch regular non-nullified ships. The nullified ship bubble script only works because they "reversed the polarity". Moral_Hazard fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 03:51
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People would just have a normal bubble + hictor.
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Feb 21, 2014 03:52
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Omi no Kami posted:Alright, so there's no need to have any kind of extremely high-level combat ability when I join? I'm just asking now because I know it can take 3-5 months to train decent skills for some of the bigger ships, much less good ones. I'd check out a ship fit/role that you wanna be able to use on a wiki or something, see what the fittings for that require skill wise, and train that. It's harder to point at specific skills without you having access to the wiki, but I imagine a lot of it is the same across the board.
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Feb 21, 2014 03:56
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