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Hey I'm back after a month and a half of teukgong musul, And I don't know what else to say besides teukgong musul is really badass and a lot cooler than taekwondo. I can post some videos if anyone cares, but they're kind of boring since they're just videos we took to help when practicing.
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Feb 19, 2014 13:45
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Ugrok posted:In those cases, funnily, i found out that what is really efficient to stop someone running into you is simply putting your hand in front of his / her face, even without striking. Morihei Ueshiba (the guy who founded the style, and who studied in a pretty notoriously brutal ju jutsu dojo fory years) loved this. I once read a summary he had written for properly executing variations on a throw from a seated position, and I swear at least half of them started with atemi to the face.
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Feb 19, 2014 13:46
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Ugrok posted:Yes, you're right on both points i think. During classes, when you attack you are supposed to attack with strength and as if you want to go through your partner, which means you don't stop your attack and pull back (it's not like a controlled punch during a sparring session, for example). Most aikido moves are based on sword practice, and attacks with swords, apparently, are meant to go through the opponent. So yes, in aikido attacks there is a bit of overcommitment which would not happen with an experienced fighter. But it might happen with "drunk dude number 95" who tries to punch you in wide useless circles i guess. That is the main problem of sparring and self-defence, not everything in sparring is good habits for self-defence. On the other hand, self-defence training versus a non-resisting opponent without stress is virtually useless as well. Either way, training self-defence is quite hard from various view points. A friend, who did Aikido once went to a Kendo class and scared the Kendo people, since they actually did the above. Kendo apparently only rewards points for hits, which meant that the Aikido guys hit much harder than the Kendo people did. As for overcommitment, I have done a lot of weapons training and we never trained on holding back blows, similar to Aikido. That doesn't however mean that you overcommit by doing this, since the most important part of weapons training is controlling the range. Ugrok posted:There are indeed distracting atemis that help set the technique. But in a real situation, chances are that it would be quite impossible to apply the correct distracting atemi at the correct moment to apply the correct technique. Things go too fast. A good test in aikido are randoris, when people attack you from everywhere, one by one, and you have to let the techniques flow. In those you can see if what you learned is integrated and has become instinctive or not. In those cases, funnily, i found out that what is really efficient to stop someone running into you is simply putting your hand in front of his / her face, even without striking. In my old FMA when I was instructing, I always used to say "When in doubt go for the head". Trying to hit someone in the head when he attacks you is a wonderful diversion, even if one doesn't even hit. Same thing goes for basically every martial art, I know Jeet Kune Do basically starts all their techniques with jabs to the head, and it is why boxing works so well.
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Feb 19, 2014 14:09
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My biggest problem with that aikido philosophy is that it assumes anyone attacking you is bad, which is pretty dangerous self defense wise and limiting from a growth perspective. Any time I asked about jabs or feints or even hard punches thrown on balance in my aikido class, I always got smoked screened to wait until I was a higher rank. However, after I had boxed for only a few months, I can tell you that it doesn't take all that long to learn how to throw a 1/2 that the majority of aikidoka just could not handle. However, I do utilize the Aikido philosophy of "just put a hand in their face/on their head" like every day in bjj and it really is an underrated strategy. I had a few classes with a former college wrestler and he was all about palm to forehead as well. Which brings me back to my core belief that the jab is the single greatest fighting technique on earth. Probably followed by the rear naked choke.
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Feb 19, 2014 15:57
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Grinding forehead into face is a pretty effective grappling technique.
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Feb 19, 2014 15:59
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It was kind of a shock to go visit a basic course on judo and immediately get introduced to seoi nages. I had to do aikido for something like two years before learning the koshi-nage (o-goshi to you judo folks).
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Feb 19, 2014 16:04
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Cardiac posted:The funny part about FMA and knife defence is that a Filippino would always use a gun as the best defence versus knife attacks. On that subject - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDPlWAq-11I
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Feb 19, 2014 18:34
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Xguard86 posted:However, I do utilize the Aikido philosophy of "just put a hand in their face/on their head" like every day in bjj and it really is an underrated strategy. I had a few classes with a former college wrestler and he was all about palm to forehead as well. Which brings me back to my core belief that the jab is the single greatest fighting technique on earth. Probably followed by the rear naked choke. The specific format of distractions or atemi in Aikido can also vary a bit depending on the practitioner- I've seen instructors who advocate flat-out nailing the guy in the face, some who prefer softer blows or gestures, and some who refuse anything that they consider offensive in favor of evasion, maneuvering and throwing/grappling. My personal stance on martial arts has always been to mix and match, and in that context I think Aikido is hugely effective-ju jutsu and judo do a lot more groundwork and contact stuff that would be immediately relevant in a fight, for instance, but I think Aikido has made my ukemi and ability to judge and maintain distance leaps and bounds better.
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Feb 19, 2014 18:47
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Cardiac posted:A friend, who did Aikido once went to a Kendo class and scared the Kendo people, since they actually did the above. Kendo apparently only rewards points for hits, which meant that the Aikido guys hit much harder than the Kendo people did. Sounds like your friend missed the point. Also, it highly unlikely that your friend would be allowed to spar with people or even get to put on armor, if it was a regular kendo class. Most adult (male) newbies in kendo will hit too hard.
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Feb 19, 2014 19:49
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Omi no Kami posted:I think Aikido has made my ukemi and ability to judge and maintain distance leaps and bounds better. Totally agree on that. Learning to fall well is also like the number 1 martial arts practical skill. I learned to hand in face softly but with pressure that continues so they can't just drive through or ignore it. However, the real challenge is apply that force on balance and at correct angles so you're not giving away easy counters. It also plays well into snap downs or headlocks when you're standup wrestling since sometimes guys turn or duck their heads to clear your hand and its an opening.
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Feb 19, 2014 19:50
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Funny story about ukemi: the first dojo I studied Aikido in was just a guy who rented a gym's yoga studio for 90 minutes every other night. Wood floors and no pads, and while he insisted on knee pads for suwariwaza, the only other padding separating our bruise-prone flesh from the floor's hard, wooden embrace was our gi. I was initially terrible at ukemi: weak core, little concept of moving the entire body from the center, I was basically planting my shoulder, flopping over, going "Ow," and repeating. After weeks and weeks of progressively less painful falls I finally nailed the forward roll, and started actually enjoying the way that being thrown improved your form and let you practice the motion in a painless, smooth way. The very. next. day. the gym bought us floor padding. >_< I suspect that to this very day, the old timers hang around making snide comments about the days of the wooden floor.
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Feb 19, 2014 20:05
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I think one main reason aikido tends to be ineffective as a combat system (even in modern grappling where everyone is grip fighting and looking to achieve control at that range before they start developing their position further) is that it doesn't take a very practical approach to chaining techniques together. When I see aikido guys chaining techniques it's usually a demonstration of how one wrist lock can be turned into another armlock and then into a throw and so on, but when BJJ and Judo guys talk about grip fighting strategies they never expect their opponent to let them maintain that level of control for more than an instant- it is assumed that you'll grip the opponent's wrist and they will immediately find some way to free their hand, and then you may have an opportunity to push their shoulder and set up a knee pick or something as they retract their arm.
Ridleys Revenge fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Feb 19, 2014 |
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Feb 19, 2014 23:11
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Ridleys Revenge posted:I think one main reason aikido tends to be ineffective as a combat system (even in modern grappling where everyone is grip fighting and looking to achieve control at that range before they start developing their position further) is that it doesn't take a very practical approach to chaining techniques together. When I see aikido guys chaining techniques it's usually a demonstration of how one wrist lock can be turned into another armlock and then into a throw and so on, but when BJJ and Judo guys talk about grip fighting strategies they never expect their opponent to let them maintain that level of control for more than an instant- it is assumed that you'll grip the opponent's wrist and they will immediately find some way to free their hand, and then you may have an opportunity to push their shoulder and set up a knee pick or something as they retract their arm. There is really only one issue with any art that doesn't work, and that's a lack of aliveness. Everything else falls in line by necessity when you're competing against resisting opponents.
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Feb 19, 2014 23:14
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Omi no Kami posted:The specific format of distractions or atemi in Aikido can also vary a bit depending on the practitioner- I've seen instructors who advocate flat-out nailing the guy in the face, some who prefer softer blows or gestures, and some who refuse anything that they consider offensive in favor of evasion, maneuvering and throwing/grappling. The principle that is always taught to us is that a distracting atemi should always put uke off balance, breaking his body stability so that the technique can be applied effortlessly. More often than not, beginners (me included of course) tend to just wave their hand in front of their partner's face, and he doesn't move, which of course is inefficient. When you really have the intention to hit, strangely, people just lean back and this is the opportunity to apply the technique. It can be a difficult spot to find though, since sometimes if your partner is not fully present you might accidentally hit him for real ! I don't think the inefficiency of aikido is about the lack of chaining techniques ; because, well, if the techniques and the locks are done correctly, there is just absolutely no way to get out of them without breaking a bone, so there is no need to chain techniques. It's more about the lack of "real" sparring, and also the fact that grabbing precisely the wrist of someone who is throwing lots of punches and kicks at you is almost impossible, especially when they know how to kick / punch.
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Feb 20, 2014 01:12
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Got bumped up a weight bracket after dieting all month cause there's no other competitors, this is bullshit  e: at least I get to pig out for a couple days Dave Grool fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 01:52
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Xguard86 posted:Which brings me back to my core belief that the jab is the single greatest fighting technique on earth. Probably followed by the rear naked choke. God, RNC's are amazing. You think you know it, but there are always a hundred tiny little bits you're missing. After spending the last 3 or 4 months on nothing but back control, my RNC is awesome, and I know there's still heaps of room for improvement. I'm going to spend the whole year working on just that one submission, I think.
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Feb 20, 2014 01:57
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Mechafunkzilla posted:There is really only one issue with any art that doesn't work, and that's a lack of aliveness. Everything else falls in line by necessity when you're competing against resisting opponents. Knife 'fighting' can't really be called either practical or effective in the United States because it is much easier and efficient to use a handgun, train with a handgun, and additionally there are some very big legal liabilities you open yourself up to using a knife. Compare that to say some regions in South East asia where purportedly their knife culture is equivalent to our gun culture. (I always hear how popular a knife is in some place like the phillipines but I don't know if that is actually true or not.) Simply looking at Aikido from a tactics point of view, it is closer than striking range but further away than grappling range, with the exception of a few techniques. So if you've got a partner who is good at either of those ranges, they're going to effectively be able to stall you if you don't know what to do. (If you've actually done some basic grappling and striking outside of Aikido you can probably deal with this. However most Aikido gyms these days do not particularly train grappling or striking that well, so for the people who only do Aikido with bad teachers, this is a problem.) Xguard86 posted:My biggest problem with that aikido philosophy is that it assumes anyone attacking you is bad, which is pretty dangerous self defense wise and limiting from a growth perspective. Any time I asked about jabs or feints or even hard punches thrown on balance in my aikido class, I always got smoked screened to wait until I was a higher rank. However, after I had boxed for only a few months, I can tell you that it doesn't take all that long to learn how to throw a 1/2 that the majority of aikidoka just could not handle. Maybe in 'modern' aikido this is true. However I'm pretty sure a lot of the aikido (daito ryu) pre-war had the students train by attacking first. I'm pretty sure there is a photo from the Noma dojo series that actually shows Ueshiba performing irminage by striking the guy or entering first. I also think there are also quotes out there from Ueshiba Morihei and his teacher Takeda Sokaku, and that say something along the lines of "Grab the guy and throw them!" I agree with the latter part of your quote. Ugrok posted:The principle that is always taught to us is that a distracting atemi should always put uke off balance, breaking his body stability so that the technique can be applied effortlessly. More often than not, beginners (me included of course) tend to just wave their hand in front of their partner's face, and he doesn't move, which of course is inefficient. When you really have the intention to hit, strangely, people just lean back and this is the opportunity to apply the technique. It can be a difficult spot to find though, since sometimes if your partner is not fully present you might accidentally hit him for real ! If your sempai are smart, they should only be reacting if your strike makes sense. If they can eat it/take it and not move, they should do so. Now I can understand if you're still in the beginning and still learning things basic techniques (Ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, iriminage) but striking is key to Aikido. Once you get beyond the basics, I would say its necessary to chain one technique to another because sometimes your partner will know what you're doing and is going to counter it so you should do something else. Sometimes you've got to do it for your own safety. (There are some real assholes out there.) Unfortunately most gyms don't cover reversals or escapes in depth. Both of the examples below are reversals, you get the basic idea. Hopefully your teacher will eventually cover them. Example 1 Example 2 Your argument the techniques being the techniques is about the same for ground work or pins for Judo or BJJ. If they're poorly performed, they're escapable and reversible. If someone has me in an armbar or a nikyo and its solid then yes I'm not going to be able to escape. However if they have a poor setup or are sloppy on it, then it can certainly be escaped as they're transitioning to it. This can be done solely on technique alone and not necessarily going faster than the pace they're setting or just muscling out of it. Senor P. fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 02:36
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Senor P. posted:Knife 'fighting' can't really be called either practical or effective in the United States because it is much easier and efficient to use a handgun, train with a handgun, and additionally there are some very big legal liabilities you open yourself up to using a knife. I'm sure this isn't what you meant, but the idea that knives have more potential to cause legal trouble than a handgun in the United States is hilarious anyway.
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Feb 20, 2014 05:08
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You probably look 85% less crazy in front of a judge when you say you shot a trespasser rather than saying you shivved 'em.
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Feb 20, 2014 05:32
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Senor P. posted:Your argument the techniques being the techniques is about the same for ground work or pins for Judo or BJJ. If they're poorly performed, they're escapable and reversible. That's not really all there is to it though. Even a good control or sub attempt can be escaped if you give up the initiative in the process of locking it in. If you're being 'smart' (gentle?) you can let opponents get 90% of the way into an attack while doing the bare minimum to defend and looking for holes in their technique that you can exploit, knowing that you'll be able to disconnect and force a reset even if you wait until the last possible second to do it. In both grappling and chess people talk about good timing as playing 'inbetween your opponent's moves' and that can't happen (won't even be fully understood) if you're training under the impression that one good technique will automatically end the 'conversation'. E: Neat vids btw thanks for the links CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 06:29
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Is there a judo name for the second throw in this video, the one that looks like a slightly modified fireman's carry? http://instagram.com/p/knyDlVBEV2/
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Feb 20, 2014 07:01
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Judoka would call it a modified kata guruma/shoulder wheel/fireman's carry.
Ridleys Revenge fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 07:27
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Thanks!
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Feb 20, 2014 08:00
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One thing about grappling and groundwork- it's probably not the most effective way to exercise your core, but by far the most fun condition work I've ever done was at an Aikido dojo- we would basically do rear rolls until we were wasted, stretch for a while, and then repeat- it was the kind of thing that didn't feel like much exertion until your abs caught on fire the next day.
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Feb 20, 2014 12:12
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fatherdog posted:On that subject - Oh, surprising knife attacks and how fast you can cover distance before someone reacts and can pull a gun. Skimmed the clip and didn't see him locked and loaded with the gun aimed at Marcaida, which is sort of my point. As well, if the knife guy had a gun instead the point would be the same. Defending when at a obvious disadvantage is not an easy subject, even against unarmed attackers. Doug Marcaida is Mandala in PTK, same art that I used to do, so this is nothing new. ImplicitAssembler posted:Sounds like your friend missed the point. Also, it highly unlikely that your friend would be allowed to spar with people or even get to put on armor, if it was a regular kendo class. I remember he said something about that they were doing an training exchange between the aikido-club and the kendo club. It is a number of years ago though. I guess the difference is how you strike. In Aikido and FMA you let your strikes go through in order to conserve the energy and momentum of the strikes, whereas Kendo stops their strikes upon hitting, losing momentum?
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Feb 20, 2014 13:29
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Thanks for the advice / videos Senor P. I am countered a lot by teachers, but i'm not at the level of practice where you learn the counters yet. I noticed as well that when experienced aikidokas practice together, more often than not it is tori that takes the initiative. For example, they do ikkyo before shomen ; they just enter the space and do ikkyo, even as the attack is not complete. It's almost as if attacker and defender switch sides.
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Feb 20, 2014 15:22
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Novum posted:You probably look 85% less crazy in front of a judge when you say you shot a trespasser rather than saying you shivved 'em. Ya I don't think there are any laws on gun vs knife but I think claims of self defense are more likely to be accepted if you've just shot a guy in a panic versus like stabbing them 16 times with a blackened hunting knife you have for some reason.
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Feb 20, 2014 15:50
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Xguard86 posted:Ya I don't think there are any laws on gun vs knife but I think claims of self defense are more likely to be accepted if you've just shot a guy in a panic versus like stabbing them 16 times with a blackened hunting knife you have for some reason. Most people own knives that aren't "tactical" murder knives. I can't imagine a court looking unfavourably on someone stabbing a burglar with a chefs knife, compared to shooting the invader.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:11
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Welp, got my first BJJ injury today and I barely even know or understand how it happened. While rolling I was in someone's guard and I guess they wrapped up my arm and as I didn't think it was that tight so as I went to pull it out I heard a loud crunch. Hurt like crazy right after, but has kind of tapered off a bit now. I can still move it and everything so I'm just icing it and hoping it's not too serious.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:41
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I have the seven standing techniques and the five hold downs I need for my rapidly approaching yellow belt exam; but the judo rolling is still something I haven't quite gotten the hang of, especially (I'm a leftie) I roll on my right hand side and I just spazz out and tumble like a potato. 
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Feb 20, 2014 20:04
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DekeThornton posted:Most people own knives that aren't "tactical" murder knives. I can't imagine a court looking unfavourably on someone stabbing a burglar with a chefs knife, compared to shooting the invader. I think his point was stabbing the guy 16 times repeatedly. Then it stops being self defense.
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Feb 20, 2014 20:33
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Raenir Salazar posted:I have the seven standing techniques and the five hold downs I need for my rapidly approaching yellow belt exam; but the judo rolling is still something I haven't quite gotten the hang of, especially (I'm a leftie) I roll on my right hand side and I just spazz out and tumble like a potato.
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Feb 20, 2014 20:56
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Ridleys Revenge posted:Judoka would call it a modified kata guruma/shoulder wheel/fireman's carry. And then they would say she was disqualified for touching the leg in stand up. Because the IJF is stupid.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:40
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Thoguh posted:And then they would say she was disqualified for touching the leg in stand up. Because the IJF is stupid. It's comforting to know that Judoka hate the IJF and wrestlers hate FILA just as much as I hate the IBJJF
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Feb 21, 2014 01:43
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fatherdog posted:It's comforting to know that Judoka hate the IJF and wrestlers hate FILA just as much as I hate the IBJJF We're all just one big family! Grapplers are all united by the hate they share for their governing body
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Feb 21, 2014 02:33
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I wonder if sambo has a corrupt governing body? It's never going to reach the big leagues without one! In other news, I don't have a spinal fracture! Woo!
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Feb 21, 2014 08:08
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:I wonder if sambo has a corrupt governing body? Ahahahaha 
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Feb 21, 2014 08:28
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Hey Russia is a totally legit place full of excellent drivers and honest politicians ok
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Feb 21, 2014 08:41
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FIAS makes FILA and the IBJJF look like Amnesty International e: http://fightland.vice.com/blog/russian-gangsters-and-russian-wrestlers
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Feb 21, 2014 10:32
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Cardiac posted:In Aikido and FMA you let your strikes go through in order to conserve the energy and momentum of the strikes, whereas Kendo stops their strikes upon hitting, losing momentum? Do you phsyically strike people with shinai or bokken in Aikido or FMA? At full strength? In the head?  Honestly, like ImplicitAssembler said; ImplicitAssembler posted:Sounds like your friend missed the point. Also I'm not sure what you mean by stopping strikes, do you mean tenouchi?
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Feb 21, 2014 12:06
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