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Vando posted:So here's a thing: if FYF is so fundamentally overpowered, how come we almost never see it being fielded outside the CFC? I know this echoes Grath's "if you want to win, bring more supers" idiocy to some extent but it seems a little more achievable to form up a bunch of T1 cruisers. I think it goes back to the fact(?) that our enemies tend to avoid low-SP players. FYF is promoted heavily as a doctrine that newbees can train into quickly, so if you don't have that many around, running a FYF would potentially be at the cost of numbers in your main fleet. IIRC Test at least eventually ended up running some FYF knock-offs toward the tail end of the Fountain war.
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Feb 21, 2014 11:12
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Vando posted:So here's a thing: if FYF is so fundamentally overpowered, how come we almost never see it being fielded outside the CFC? I know this echoes Grath's "if you want to win, bring more supers" idiocy to some extent but it seems a little more achievable to form up a bunch of T1 cruisers. FYF is not overpowered, it is a smart use of the game mechanics, and has reasonable contermeasures (which require some  , but that's OK). For what I have seen, CFC is one of the few (the only one?) group which makes an organized effort to use low-SP characters in effective ways in big sov warfare, beyond the welpfleets BNI style or the old "fly fast tackle until you grow your skills to fly something else". Obviously, that is disliked and despised by some ~elite PvP~ groups. Having said that, the FYF idea works remarkably well even if you scale it down. In FW I used to fly in small T1 cruiser fleets, and adding just 2-3 damping ships is very effective. I'd say a mechanic which works well both in small-medium scale and in mega sov fights is a well balanced one.
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Feb 21, 2014 11:18
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Vando posted:So here's a thing: if FYF is so fundamentally overpowered, how come we almost never see it being fielded outside the CFC? I know this echoes Grath's "if you want to win, bring more supers" idiocy to some extent but it seems a little more achievable to form up a bunch of T1 cruisers. The amusing thing is that there's no shortage of low SP pilots in the trash that make up large parts of N3. There's just no directive or effort to engage them or make them useful like the CFC does. Which is basically what determines a large part of success in Eve, getting your dudes logging in and getting in fleet.
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Feb 21, 2014 11:28
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To be honest, I truly believe that the FYF Celestis is basically the best example of a CFC (and particularly; Goonswarm) philosophy that I find endearing. We might be colossal asshats to anyone not in the CFC (and to plenty of people within the CFC too, for that matter,  ) but I think its great that we actively include newbies in the big important space battles in a meaningful way. The idea that any part of the game should only be accessible to old, rich players alone is terrible, and I'm glad we actively oppose it in that way. Seriously gives me the warm fuzzies. 
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Feb 21, 2014 12:03
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Yeah, that really seems to be the thing: people like to moan about 'cheap' tactics and 'blobbing', but when it comes down to it they're just poo poo at welcoming new people into their little groups. It doesn't really make sense to me, I guess it's hard work organising thousands of people but that's part of the skill of the game, isn't it?
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Feb 21, 2014 12:33
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Vando posted:So here's a thing: if FYF is so fundamentally overpowered, how come we almost never see it being fielded outside the CFC? I know this echoes Grath's "if you want to win, bring more supers" idiocy to some extent but it seems a little more achievable to form up a bunch of T1 cruisers. The current conflict has shown that on a scheduled OP CFC can get more people in FYF than N3 gets in line ships, and then multiple full line fleets and a bomber fleet on top of that. Then add RUS)). There hasn't been hundreds of N3 newbies sitting around during OPs due to some ~elitepvp~ putdown bullshit. twoot fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 12:41
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Vando posted:Yeah, that really seems to be the thing: people like to moan about 'cheap' tactics and 'blobbing', but when it comes down to it they're just poo poo at welcoming new people into their little groups. It doesn't really make sense to me, I guess it's hard work organising thousands of people but that's part of the skill of the game, isn't it? Spying is also an issue. Part of the reason GSF gets away with taking new people in is because it has the major advantage of a pre-existing community that encourages loyalty simply by virtue of the fact that you have arbitrarily chosen to invest in it. And there's still a margin of extra vetting that occurs if you want to do anything important.
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Feb 21, 2014 12:49
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Shout out to everyone in ceptor fleet at the DG- gate yesterday. You showed me EVE can be fun..
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Feb 21, 2014 12:55
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twoot posted:The current conflict has shown that on a scheduled OP CFC can get more people in FYF than N3 gets in line ships, and then two full line fleets and a bomber fleet on top of that. Then add RUS)). No, but as a coalition you have had problems engaging the CoWs and StUpid NaMes of this world and getting them to log in to defend their space, which is why they were slapped around by the angry drunk father that is PL after BR-5 and evicted. There's obviously a significant numerical advantage on our side, but getting enough warm bodies to push F1 is what the Sov game has always been about.
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Feb 21, 2014 12:57
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Alchenar posted:Spying is also an issue. Part of the reason GSF gets away with taking new people in is because it has the major advantage of a pre-existing community that encourages loyalty simply by virtue of the fact that you have arbitrarily chosen to invest in it. And there's still a margin of extra vetting that occurs if you want to do anything important. This can be overstated though, there's now a bunch of non-SA corps in GSF, not to mention the entire rest of the CFC. Sure it helps to form a solid core for ~important space tasks~ and stuff, but I don't think it's as big a deal nowadays when it comes to generating numbers in fleet.
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Feb 21, 2014 12:59
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Vando posted:This can be overstated though, there's now a bunch of non-SA corps in GSF, not to mention the entire rest of the CFC. Sure it helps to form a solid core for ~important space tasks~ and stuff, but I don't think it's as big a deal nowadays when it comes to generating numbers in fleet. And yet, for all that, unless there's some massive conspiracy to suppress reports of it going on, I've not heard of many instances of awoxing or spies causing significant losses (like the spy corp we had in TEST during the Fountain war for example) within GSF, despite all the non-SA corps in it. Is our vetting better, or are we just more cohesive?
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Feb 21, 2014 13:02
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Alchenar posted:And there's still a margin of extra vetting that occurs if you want to do anything important. You better be good or ~THE DIGIMAN~ will get you 
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Feb 21, 2014 13:03
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twoot posted:The current conflict has shown that on a scheduled OP CFC can get more people in FYF than N3 gets in line ships, and then two full line fleets and a bomber fleet on top of that. Then add RUS)). I think this also has more to do with CFC mindset overall. Want to rat? No problem. Want to be a newbie and piss off the old guard? Here, train this for a few weeks and you'll be an asset in big combat. Want to join in on miniluv high sec ganking? Here are some destroyers. Want help with PI? Here's your starter pack. Want to clear all my anoms with a noctis? Go for it. CFC really nurtures new blood. Few months down the road, these same newbies can now buy chars with more SP and move into line fleets. Eventually, even if only a 1/5 of these newbies stick around, in a year or two, they’ll be in caps and then supers. When you develop fleet combos from the ground up and include all of your playerbase, we see where CFC can really apply pressure in subcaps. The problem for the ~elitepvp~ crew is now, due to continued pressure of supers, we're finally making another effort to get people in supers too.
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Feb 21, 2014 13:04
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xlr82xs posted:Ah. Last time (years ago) I was trying anti interceptor duty they would take 0s from missiles. Sounds like you played back during the speed era, when it wasn't so much that interceptors outran the explosion velocity as it was they simply outran the missile itself.
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Feb 21, 2014 14:20
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Newbies are the best things. I have never understood elitism.
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Feb 21, 2014 14:23
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Nietzschean posted:Newbies are the best things. I have never understood elitism. It's the dumbest logic, and almost always ends in a massive collapse. I'd rather have 20 day one newbies join whatever guild/corp/group I'm in, and bond with those guys over the years, than have 20 "elite pvpers" who've flitted from group to group, leaving each time their side starts losing.
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Feb 21, 2014 14:40
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I could understand the desire or need for elitism in numbers-capped endeavours such as PVP arenas or Raiding teams in most MMOs. EVE has a few environments where elitism makes sense, too; e.g., Incursions, Wormholes, and so on. But there is absolutely no benefit that I can see for telling a newbie to gently caress off in nullsec versus having one more dude on your side.
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Feb 21, 2014 14:50
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darth cookie posted:And yet, for all that, unless there's some massive conspiracy to suppress reports of it going on, I've not heard of many instances of awoxing or spies causing significant losses (like the spy corp we had in TEST during the Fountain war for example) within GSF, despite all the non-SA corps in it. I will still argue that is one of the stupidest mechanics in the sov system right now. Yes I am biased because I had to deal with it but it is offensively stupid that SBUs work that way. Vando posted:Yeah, that really seems to be the thing: people like to moan about 'cheap' tactics and 'blobbing', but when it comes down to it they're just poo poo at welcoming new people into their little groups. It doesn't really make sense to me, I guess it's hard work organising thousands of people but that's part of the skill of the game, isn't it? Why do you get to decide what is dumb and overpowered? There was a ton of complaints that drone assist was broken and over powered but when someone mentions that damps are to strong in their current form they are wrong.
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Feb 21, 2014 14:51
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Xaerael posted:It's the dumbest logic, and almost always ends in a massive collapse. I'd rather have 20 day one newbies join whatever guild/corp/group I'm in, and bond with those guys over the years, than have 20 "elite pvpers" who've flitted from group to group, leaving each time their side starts losing. I understand it in most MMO's, but it's dumb in EVE Online, yes.
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Feb 21, 2014 14:52
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FoF posted:Why do you get to decide what is dumb and overpowered? There was a ton of complaints that drone assist was broken and over powered but when someone mentions that damps are to strong in their current form they are wrong. Drone assist stops people playing the game. Ewar gets *more* people playing the game. I'll call it overpowered when it's being used by everyone because it's the clear best option (like - surprise! - drone assist is right now). As it is, only CFC fleets seem to be using it, which appears to indicate either the opposition don't think it's overpowered, or are idiots who don't want to fly T1 cruisers because ~elitepvp~
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Feb 21, 2014 14:55
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Vando posted:Drone assist stops people playing the game. Ewar gets *more* people playing the game. I'll call it overpowered when it's being used by everyone because it's the clear best option (like - surprise! - drone assist is right now). As it is, only CFC fleets seem to be using it, which appears to indicate either the opposition don't think it's overpowered, or are idiots who don't want to fly T1 cruisers because ~elitepvp~ I am inclined to imagine the latter is true, in which I envision the foe as the most stereotypically narrative-compliant image of some sort of Sun Tzu Space Bushido warrior who deigns not to sully himself with "the tech one" lest he bring shame to his house.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:00
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Vando posted:So here's a thing: if FYF is so fundamentally overpowered, how come we almost never see it being fielded outside the CFC? I know this echoes Grath's "if you want to win, bring more supers" idiocy to some extent but it seems a little more achievable to form up a bunch of T1 cruisers. To fly a FYF you need to have more subcap numbers and i dont recall fighting anyone that has more subcap numbers then us. If you go out with 100 vs 100 and 25 FYF your going to win every time.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:01
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QuarkJets posted:What'd you end up doing, did you just lose a skill the next time you got podded or did you get lucky flying back to 1V? My alpha clone harpy made it to 1V and then back to 0-w for more campin'.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:03
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Sprawl posted:To fly a FYF you need to have more subcap numbers and i dont recall fighting anyone that has more subcap numbers then us. If you go out with 100 vs 100 and 25 FYF your going to win every time. True, but maybe they'd stand more chance if they went with 75 + 25 FYF sometime. SP and tactics do help after all, hell there have been CFC fleets that have fought outnumbered and won in the past due to good tactical play.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:07
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I often get lost while trying to lurk this thread due to terms were I have no idea the meaning. Google fu didn't help (or mine is weak). can someone explain a CFC and FYF fleet?
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Feb 21, 2014 15:09
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The one issue I have on recruiting newbies is that I recruit from eve, not a preaccount forum so the spai rate is up there. But I am starting to learn that most are serious noobs or really good spais. I did like the FYF and was thinking about making it one of my corp doctrines except I focus mostly on amarr. But I do love sensor damps and probably gonna be shooting for gallente soon since they still rely on armor tank. Fake edit: would love if someone would post the FYF poster again.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:10
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Eyke posted:I often get lost while trying to lurk this thread due to terms were I have no idea the meaning. Google fu didn't help (or mine is weak). can someone explain a CFC and FYF fleet? CFC is the coalition of which Goonswarm is a member, which stands for Clusterfuck Coalition. FYF is a newbie-friendly doctrine of cheap ships that disrupt the lock range or lock time of hostile ships, which stands for gently caress You Fleet.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:10
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darthzeta88 posted:The one issue I have on recruiting newbies is that I recruit from eve, not a preaccount forum so the spai rate is up there. But I am starting to learn that most are serious noobs or really good spais. I did like the FYF and was thinking about making it one of my corp doctrines except I focus mostly on amarr. But I do love sensor damps and probably gonna be shooting for gallente soon since they still rely on armor tank. Only if you include Vee getting pipebombed right after. Like 1/8 of that poster is giant bold text "DON'T GET PIPEBOMBED"
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Feb 21, 2014 15:11
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darthzeta88 posted:The one issue I have on recruiting newbies is that I recruit from eve, not a preaccount forum so the spai rate is up there. But I am starting to learn that most are serious noobs or really good spais. I did like the FYF and was thinking about making it one of my corp doctrines except I focus mostly on amarr. But I do love sensor damps and probably gonna be shooting for gallente soon since they still rely on armor tank. Most corps do not have anything worth spying on. If you are worried about a corp thief, then just do not give people roles regardless of how eager and helpful they appear to be.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:12
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Nietzschean posted:CFC is the coalition of which Goonswarm is a member, which stands for Clusterfuck Coalition. FYF is a newbie-friendly doctrine of cheap ships that disrupt the lock range or lock time of hostile ships, which stands for gently caress You Fleet. Thank you I get the idea now. so big guns vs. ewar
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Feb 21, 2014 15:12
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Eyke posted:Thank you I get the idea now. so big guns vs. ewar FYF is a support fleet that does ewar against big enemy ships, yes. It is an evolution of the old ewar doctrines, which are no longer nearly as good. Whereas the old ECM mechanics were up to the random number generator and have been nerfed several times, sensor dampeners always hit the target and do some variable amount of effect (dependent on bonuses, range, skills, etc.). A single newbie in a cheap t1 cruiser can shut down three sniping battleships, or disrupt the lock times of three hostile logistics ships, depending on which scripts are loaded. They are a major boon, especially in big fights.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:14
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FoF posted:I will still argue that is one of the stupidest mechanics in the sov system right now. Yes I am biased because I had to deal with it but it is offensively stupid that SBUs work that way. Does this mean tracking disruptors are too strong too? Percentagewise, they have a stronger effect than Damps.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:17
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Vando posted:True, but maybe they'd stand more chance if they went with 75 + 25 FYF sometime. SP and tactics do help after all, hell there have been CFC fleets that have fought outnumbered and won in the past due to good tactical play. One of the biggest things I love about the CFC is that we do everything. There's plenty of room for newbies, but if you want to roll in a high skill, punch-above-weight doctrine, well, we've got that too. If you're a newbie come fly your FYF spaceship with the tech 1 battlecruiser fleet, or if you can, go fly a Tengu. Bring your FYF cruiser with you to a mainfleet action, or bring your navy faction battleship. If you've got Gallente Cruiser 4 and a handful of other skills there's going to be a place for you in virtually every fleet we send out. Add Minmatar Frigate 4/Shield Emissions Systems 3 and that covers everything shy of capitals and Railgus.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:20
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Sprawl posted:To fly a FYF you need to have more subcap numbers and i dont recall fighting anyone that has more subcap numbers then us. If you go out with 100 vs 100 and 25 FYF your going to win every time. I don't think the reasoning is "we'll put our excess guys in FYF". I think the reasoning is: "we have excess guys because the newbies can roll in FYF". Fitting in your example, you'll arrive with 100+25 vs 100 because the side with 100 didn't even leave those 25 guys in because they're not ~31337 pvp~.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:33
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i do cocaine posted:Don't join EVE-Uni. I am deadly serious. Join Groon, and poo poo up Syndicate every day. There is no activity requirement for Groon, and they will teach you things you need to survive in Nullsec, and they provide what help they can to their newbies. In EVE-Uni, you will spend more effort in the interview to get in than you would in actually applying to a real job, and their playstyle leaves a lot to be desired. If you get into Eve UNI you will probably quit playing EVE in short order. I've got to second this one. I didn't even know how to use the D-Scan before I applied to Groon and now I've got a pretty decent kill board for a fifteen day old player. That and I'm having tons more fun then I would have been if I was playing by myself.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:36
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Troll Bridgington posted:A Snot Shot post without smiles and winks punctuating every sentence? That can't be right. Actually snot shot is very well written when he wants to be, what he's doing on the EVO forums is just a huge gimmick. This isn't to say I wasn't proud of killing him the few times our paths crossed 
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Feb 21, 2014 15:45
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Nietzschean posted:I am inclined to imagine the latter is true, in which I envision the foe as the most stereotypically narrative-compliant image of some sort of Sun Tzu Space Bushido warrior who deigns not to sully himself with "the tech one" lest he bring shame to his house. And thus another year of goon pilots making "No true samurai would use such tactics... dishonoraburururururu" jokes goes by, and it's still just as relevant now as it was then. Just in a different way.
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Feb 21, 2014 15:50
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I forgot how much fun suicide ganking is. Got a 4.5bil Golem and his 800mil pod last night 
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Feb 21, 2014 15:51
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Uba Stij posted:I forgot how much fun suicide ganking is. Got a 4.5bil Golem and his 800mil pod last night Retards in autism chariots, they never change.
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Feb 21, 2014 16:10
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Is a Navy Issue Vexor capable of doing L3 missions?
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