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fade5 posted:Get a Pickup user, you'll be swimming in Moon Stones. Alternatively, come to the trade thread, and I can send you as many Moon Stones as you want. Safeguard doesn't really help in singles because of prankster, unless you're willing to use a faster prankster. I don't think swagger is overpowered, it's just annoying. 75% of the time it does nothing, or even helps you, but that 25% when you hit yourself twice and the other guy gets a free kill with full HP and a sub just sucks the fun right out of the game.
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Feb 23, 2014 03:38
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Main Paineframe posted:If you're running a rock-resistant or even rock-neutral team, a spinner was optional, but taking 25% on switch-in is barely tolerable and 50% is completely unacceptable. pre:x4 25% x2 12.5% x1 6.25% x1/2 3.125% x1/4 1.5625% fade5 fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 03:47
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Huh, someone just wonder traded me a shiny Electabuzz. ... man I wish it looked cooler shiny.
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Feb 23, 2014 04:44
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Are we sure Pickup users can find Leftovers in X and Y? I've got two level 100 ones and between them they've gotten eight Prism Scales and not even one single extra Leftovers.
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Feb 23, 2014 04:54
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Zore posted:Huh, someone just wonder traded me a shiny Electabuzz.
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Feb 23, 2014 04:56
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Bongo Bill posted:Are we sure Pickup users can find Leftovers in X and Y? I've got two level 100 ones and between them they've gotten eight Prism Scales and not even one single extra Leftovers. Serebii claims its in the rarest catagory in the 81-90 and 91-100 brackets. The list is slightly different from the Gen 5 list, so presumably it came from somewhere rather than it just being assumed to be the same. Haven't gotten one myself, but I only have 3 pickup users I toss into my party to fill space when grinding/ev training. Blhue fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 04:56
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The super training that gives you stones is so stupid. I finish the Shiny Stone one in 8 seconds, soda pop. Finish it in twenty seconds, Shiny Stone. What's the scoring algorithm?
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Feb 23, 2014 04:58
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Also jesus christ do people wonder trade a lot of Charmanders. I've been throwing out my Joltik and Scyther breeding leftovers with the wrong natures/bad ivs etc. and I've gotten like fifteen charmanders out of forty or fifty trades. I've gotten more Charmanders with egg moves than lovely route 1 Bunnelby's and Caterpies. 
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Feb 23, 2014 05:00
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L0cke17 posted:The super training that gives you stones is so stupid. I finish the Shiny Stone one in 8 seconds, soda pop. Finish it in twenty seconds, Shiny Stone. What's the scoring algorithm? Finish Under Par Time => Random Item from Table. That's it.
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Feb 23, 2014 05:09
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Finish Under Par Time => Random Item from Table. That's it. This is bullshit because in my current Nuzlocke I have two pokemon that evolve from Dusk Stones. If my Honchkrow or Chandelure die I'm throwing this poo poo out the window.
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Feb 23, 2014 05:11
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Zore posted:Also jesus christ do people wonder trade a lot of Charmanders. Right?? All I want is a bunch of Scatterbugs so's I can have all the pretty Vivillons. Every player in the drat world has to have at least three Charmanders by now; people can kindly stop giving them out. I also get more Froakies than the standard early-game poo poo. I got all excited because I got a Scatterbug from Puerto Rico (which I think should probably be Archipelago, which I need). loving Polar. I can get a Polar one whenever I drat well want. Cue sad trombone.
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Feb 23, 2014 05:48
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Diet Poison posted:Right?? All I want is a bunch of Scatterbugs so's I can have all the pretty Vivillons. Every player in the drat world has to have at least three Charmanders by now; people can kindly stop giving them out. I also get more Froakies than the standard early-game poo poo. I wish the Vivillons were spread around better. I can pull an elegant one out of the GTS any day I want, but I'm hosed if I want to take a look at an archipelago or ocean one. At least I managed to get a monsoon before someone else could.
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Feb 23, 2014 05:53
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Captain Pissweak posted:I wish the Vivillons were spread around better. I can pull an elegant one out of the GTS any day I want, but I'm hosed if I want to take a look at an archipelago or ocean one. I do believe Monsoon is the rarest one, at least in my GTS experience. I bit the bullet and dropped a Zekrom for one. But now I'm at the point where I don't have any more spare legendaries (and am so unwilling to reply my White and Black2 carts to get more) and I still need Archipelago, Icy Snow, Garden, Ocean, River, Meadow, and Sandstorm. Jesus. I wish they'd made your native one super common, and the others all available yet rare. You'd still need to catch 'em as Scatterbugs and it'd drive you up the wall but at least jackholes on the GTS wouldn't think their lovely bug is worth a box legendary just because you've gotta live in the drat Caribbean to get one with certain wings.
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Feb 23, 2014 06:00
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L0cke17 posted:The super training that gives you stones is so stupid. I finish the Shiny Stone one in 8 seconds, soda pop. Finish it in twenty seconds, Shiny Stone. What's the scoring algorithm? We don't know exactly. Since the 3DS games haven't been extensively hacked yet, we're going to have to settle for not knowing the full algorithms and formulas underlying literally every aspect of the game for a while. It seems to be randomly chosen off a table of possible items, though Bulbapedia suggests that getting a better time makes it somewhat more likely to get a rare item - in any case, it's not guaranteed by any means and you'll probably have to run through it a few times to get the stone.
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Feb 23, 2014 06:03
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Diet Poison posted:I do believe Monsoon is the rarest one, at least in my GTS experience. I bit the bullet and dropped a Zekrom for one. But now I'm at the point where I don't have any more spare legendaries (and am so unwilling to reply my White and Black2 carts to get more) and I still need Archipelago, Icy Snow, Garden, Ocean, River, Meadow, and Sandstorm. Jesus. I wish they'd made your native one super common, and the others all available yet rare. You'd still need to catch 'em as Scatterbugs and it'd drive you up the wall but at least jackholes on the GTS wouldn't think their lovely bug is worth a box legendary just because you've gotta live in the drat Caribbean to get one with certain wings. And why didn't they just randomize which one you got in your save file? Polar is the worst and it feels like most of the people who play the game can only get it.
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Feb 23, 2014 06:04
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Bongo Bill posted:Are we sure Pickup users can find Leftovers in X and Y? I've got two level 100 ones and between them they've gotten eight Prism Scales and not even one single extra Leftovers. We're sure. I've gotten at least 5 of them with my team of Diggersbys.
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Feb 23, 2014 06:07
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Diet Poison posted:I do believe Monsoon is the rarest one, at least in my GTS experience. I bit the bullet and dropped a Zekrom for one. But now I'm at the point where I don't have any more spare legendaries (and am so unwilling to reply my White and Black2 carts to get more) and I still need Archipelago, Icy Snow, Garden, Ocean, River, Meadow, and Sandstorm. Jesus. I wish they'd made your native one super common, and the others all available yet rare. You'd still need to catch 'em as Scatterbugs and it'd drive you up the wall but at least jackholes on the GTS wouldn't think their lovely bug is worth a box legendary just because you've gotta live in the drat Caribbean to get one with certain wings. If it's any consolation I'm more than happy to hook you up with a river Scatterbug. 2294-5167-4362, Jordan in game. Can't help with any others though, they're precisely the ones I don't have.
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Feb 23, 2014 06:29
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Zore posted:Huh, someone just wonder traded me a shiny Electabuzz. Maybe that one guy got tired of insisting he had a pink-lemonade colored one and traded it
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Feb 23, 2014 07:15
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W.T. Fits posted:You must remember, confusion is a random variable and Smogon hates random variables in its "who can crunch numbers better" simulations. I thought someone was joking, are they really banning swagger? What the hell. Why do so many players follow these peoples rules?
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Feb 23, 2014 07:25
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Stalgren posted:I thought someone was joking, are they really banning swagger? What the hell. Because they have some admittedly decent research and basically the only competent simulator on the internet; although, it looks like Pokebattle will absolutely cannibalize Showdown if it's executed correctly.
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Feb 23, 2014 07:32
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Alabaster White posted:Because they have some admittedly decent research and basically the only competent simulator on the internet; although, it looks like Pokebattle will absolutely cannibalize Showdown if it's executed correctly. Unfortunately, the only person "on the inside" I've seen talk about it (a few pages ago) had little good to say about the current beta. We'll see what happens though!
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Feb 23, 2014 07:35
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Stalgren posted:I thought someone was joking, are they really banning swagger? What the hell. They're opening the possibility of banning it to player discussion. The thing to remember is that many Smogoners are serious "Items off, Fox only, Final Destination" spergs who just can't abide the slightest element of random chance in their pretend monster battles (although they'll tolerate the existence inaccurate moves as long as they're part of a power/accuracy tradeoff like Flamethrower vs Fire Blast). Within five posts of the thread being posted, people were seriously advocating banning all non-damaging confusion-causing moves, and some of them suggest that they'd want Thunder Wave banned too if so many things weren't immune to it. This kind of behavior is par for the course for the Smogon community, because it's full of whiny babies that complain about the possibility of "lucky players triumph[ing] over skilled ones". It's certainly worrying that the rulemakers seem to actually be bending to popular opinion even a little bit here, since they've ignored poo poo like Serene Grace Togekiss in the past, but with any luck common sense will prevail and they're just giving the nuts a place to rant so they won't be constantly PMing mods to whine about Swagger.
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Feb 23, 2014 07:43
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Main Paineframe posted:They're opening the possibility of banning it to player discussion. The thing to remember is that many Smogoners are serious "Items off, Fox only, Final Destination" spergs who just can't abide the slightest element of random chance in their pretend monster battles (although they'll tolerate the existence inaccurate moves as long as they're part of a power/accuracy tradeoff like Flamethrower vs Fire Blast). Within five posts of the thread being posted, people were seriously advocating banning all non-damaging confusion-causing moves, and some of them suggest that they'd want Thunder Wave banned too if so many things weren't immune to it. This kind of behavior is par for the course for the Smogon community, because it's full of whiny babies that complain about the possibility of "lucky players triumph[ing] over skilled ones". It's certainly worrying that the rulemakers seem to actually be bending to popular opinion even a little bit here, since they've ignored poo poo like Serene Grace Togekiss in the past, but with any luck common sense will prevail and they're just giving the nuts a place to rant so they won't be constantly PMing mods to whine about Swagger. It's been 5 loving generations of Swagger and 6 of Thunder Wave. If it were that overpowered they'd be gone by now. It won't get anywhere. It's new that Foul Play and Swagger come on Pokemon worth using, I'd wager. So people hate it. That said, it's kind of silly how everyone mocks the idea of banning Stealth Rocks, but this gets a serious discussion. Really? Losing half your health to an entry hazard is a-okay but god forbid you be confused?
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Feb 23, 2014 07:51
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Smogonbashing sure is popular but they try to establish a format where prediction is rewarded and counters exist and that's the idea behind their banning policy. The point is that swagger can set up situations where the swagger user doesn't have to try to predict anything because it's really easy to play a swagger team on a flow chart. Snow Cloak and Sand Veil were banned for similar reasons - especially in that your garchomp counter could be killed by missing due to Sand Veil. Keep in mind the suspecting is for swagger and not t-wave or the more accurate confuse ray because swagger leads to predictable yet not consistently counterable (yet statistically deficient) play. Classtoise posted:It's been 5 loving generations of Swagger and 6 of Thunder Wave. Zoness fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 07:57
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Things shouldn't be banned in Pokemon because they introduce luck elements moreso than other things. This includes OHKO moves and evasion. Smogon's ideal "healthy metagame" boils down to whatever metagame is similar to the previous one, with the addition of some new things, as long as those new things don't shake things up too much. This leads to them being too reactionary toward new and powerful threats or strategies (several of the new megas), and they're unwilling to give the game time to adapt to those strategies. This SwaggerPlay thing is the perfect example of this. One of the main arguments for banning the strategy, aside from the "it's a coin flip" argument, is that Hyper Offense teams have trouble with it, unlike Balanced and Defensive teams, which can afford to switch and have defensive Pokemon that can tank Foul Plays. Is there anything really wrong with that? So what if a single style of team has trouble with a single strategy? Isn't that the point of having different team play-styles?
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Feb 23, 2014 08:08
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Given that at least half the people commeting on Smogon's suspecting (i.e. not affecting any form of cartridge play and not even a formal ban) probably don't even play Smogon's OU format I don't see how it remotely affects them. Anyway, apparently trying to voice why people on smogon would even remotely entertain the notion of the ban is anathema to this thread so I'm not going to bother trying to explain any more and everyone can continue with their ridiculous misconceptions of what a smogon ban even means. But it's wrong to assume that hyper offense is the only thing crippled by swagger. And personally I've beaten swagger strategies by using Lum Berry Garchomp or Haxorus, which also are good at dealing with other threats, but not everyone can put something like that on their teams.
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Feb 23, 2014 08:19
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Classtoise posted:It's been 5 loving generations of Swagger and 6 of Thunder Wave. There is, and basically always has been, plenty of people on Smogon who would ban confusion, paralysis, critical hits, and literally everything else that has less than a 100% chance of working except for Fire Blast, Thunder, High Jump Kick, Stone Edge, Focus Blast, and sleep moves. There's a real hatred of the possibility that they might lose a battle because a coin flip didn't go their way. Then again, I've literally never had any problem with Swagger, because a) I play doubles now, and b) I build my teams to have ways of dealings with Pranksters because they're a threat that can seriously mess up unprepared teams. I think the real problem is that people hate adjusting their teams to deal with any threat that isn't openly offensive - they'll happily devise a Garchomp counter or a Scizor counter, but throw them up against a stall-ish team capable of actually surviving the heavily offensive metagame, or something that relies on status, and they'll just whine about it like crazy instead of tweaking a hold item or ability to deal with it. Zoness posted:But it's wrong to assume that hyper offense is the only thing crippled by swagger. And personally I've beaten swagger strategies by using Lum Berry Garchomp or Haxorus, which also are good at dealing with other threats, but not everyone can put something like that on their teams. If you can't put something to deal with those threats on your teams, then you're doomed to be forever owned by those threats. I wouldn't get much traction if I went and whined about any offensive Pokemon because I couldn't put something that counters it on my team for some reason.
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Feb 23, 2014 08:30
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Zoness posted:Given that at least half the people commeting on Smogon's suspecting (i.e. not affecting any form of cartridge play and not even a formal ban) probably don't even play Smogon's OU format I don't see how it remotely affects them. Anyway, apparently trying to voice why people on smogon would even remotely entertain the notion of the ban is anathema to this thread so I'm not going to bother trying to explain any more and everyone can continue with their ridiculous misconceptions of what a smogon ban even means. I think everyone here knows this isn't a ban yet, it's the fact that they're even seriously considering it worthy of banning is what I find ridiculous. If it weren't still February I'd think this was an April Fool's joke. quote:But it's wrong to assume that hyper offense is the only thing crippled by swagger. And personally I've beaten swagger strategies by using Lum Berry Garchomp or Haxorus, which also are good at dealing with other threats, but not everyone can put something like that on their teams. But isn't that essentially what a metagame is? Shouldn't it be about identifying trends and responding to them through new/changing strategies instead of just piling on more rules? Pomplamoose fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 08:47
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I really don't have a horse in the Swagger/Prankster race, but I think saying "it's a metagame, adapt!" doesn't make a lot of sense when I'm pretty sure the argument isn't that Swagger/Prankster is OP, but that it's just flowchart as gently caress and doesn't lead to any interesting decisions or matchups. It's fine to disagree with this, but I don't really see how it matches up with the Stealth Rocks thing people keep mentioning beyond them both being related to pokemon and bans.
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Feb 23, 2014 09:02
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:But isn't that essentially what a metagame is? Shouldn't it be about identifying trends and responding to them through new/changing strategies instead of just piling on more rules? Realistically there isn't a way to field 6 pokemon that can reliably stop everything, which is why (along with defog buff, etc) dedicated stall is on the decline in higher-ranked OU this generation. Most threats have checks that can check other threats though, but a check to a swagger user isn't guaranteed to work (barring using an own tempo pokemon but said own tempo havers are fairly miserable to use). The use of Guts Conkeldurr without a flame orb is a concession to how widespread will-o-wisp, scald, and lava plume are this gen, but Guts Conkeldurr hits things it isn't run to counter hard enough to justify including. When you look at Own Tempo your options are Smeargle which has no offensive presence, the Slowpoke family which is fairly hard to use effectively without Regenerator, the lickitung line which is just walking food for any fighting type, and Lilligant which can't possibly surivive in a format where Talonflame, among other things, exist. That's not to say the swagger user doesn't have his own opportunity cost - but having to field a team that can reliably beat hyper offense, stall, and swagger is a tall order. Also the other issue with swagger use is that you don't get multiple turns to deal with it due to the combination of substitute, swagger, and thunder wave. I'm not suggesting that it's unbeatable but if you get in the situation of facing a klefki behind a substitute you're suddenly looking at a very uphill battle. Sure, infiltrators exist, but they can also get ko'd by priority swagger. The thing is, against most strategies properly switching gives you something to make up for the turn you spent switching in lieu of using a move. Against a swagger user the pokemon you switched in gets swaggered and you've lost an entire turn. Zoness fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 09:11
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Zore posted:And why didn't they just randomize which one you got in your save file? Really? I thought Modern was the most common, next to Elegant and High Plains. I think the Vivilion pattern is a cool idea in theory but in practice it kinda sucks when 80% of the playerbase has the same 3-4 patterns. In any case I have a shitload of Scatterbugs (like 150+) from different places that I got for doing some giveaways and I have been evolving all of them and been getting some pretty rareish patterns. I even have two Monsoon and Archipelago Vivilions right now. Whenever I get done evolving all of them I'll be putting up a trade post in the trading thread for all of my doubles.
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Feb 23, 2014 09:15
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Zoness posted:Realistically there isn't a way to field 6 pokemon that can reliably stop everything, which is why (along with defog buff, etc) dedicated stall is on the decline in higher-ranked OU this generation. Most threats have checks that can check other threats though, but a check to a swagger user isn't guaranteed to work (barring using an own tempo pokemon but said own tempo havers are fairly miserable to use). The use of Guts Conkeldurr without a flame orb is a concession to how widespread will-o-wisp, scald, and lava plume are this gen, but Guts Conkeldurr hits things it isn't run to counter hard enough to justify including. When you look at Own Tempo your options are Smeargle which has no offensive presence, the Slowpoke family which is fairly hard to use effectively without Regenerator, the lickitung line which is just walking food for any fighting type, and Lilligant which can't possibly surivive in a format where Talonflame, among other things, exist. Pretty sure dedicated stall has been on the decline since GSC - as hyper offense gets stronger, it seems like stall just fares worse and worse with each new generation. Your last paragraph boils down to "what if my opponent sets up on me". I can't think of a single effective Pokemon that gives the opponent "multiple turns to deal with it" before either punching big holes in the enemy team or being fully prepared to handle everything it possibly can. If you get into the situation of facing, say, a Gyarados with a Dragon Dance under its belt or a Cloyster that's gotten off a White Herb Shell Smash, you're also looking at a very uphill battle. Klefki, on the other hand? It's got weaker defenses than Scizor, and the same weakness as well as another common weakness; I'd rather face it than a Rotom-W which has decent bulk, only one fairly rare weakness, and has move which gives it an 85% chance of permanently crippling any physical attacke. Clearly it's time to demand the banning of Will-o-Wisp - there's just no countermeasure for it (short of using Guts, or Flash Fire, or a Lum Berry, or a special attacker, or Natural Cure, or Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, and I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting).
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Feb 23, 2014 09:38
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Main Paineframe posted:
I'll concede that it looks like the same concept but there's one key difference - setup sweepers and permanent status both have reliable counters to switch in (and the lack of one for M-Lucario was one of the reasons it got the axe in the first place but whether or not M-Lucario deserved a ban isn't on the table here) and those counters also have other roles and can be used reliably. A swagger user doesn't care about who you switch in because the number of reliable counters to swagger is limited and the opposing team can run at least 2 decent swagger users (and liepard for a third one). I've already gone over why Own Tempo doesn't really work and Lum Berry can only be used once. Any setup sweeper is susceptible to being revenged with a sashed or scarfed pokemon, or at worst, a suicide prankster Thundurus-I thunder wave. In fact, if you compare the list of reliable counters to Will-o-Wisp (add Facade to that list, for starters) to the list of reliable counters to Priority Swagger (Own Tempo, Lum Berry holder after a faint or a 50-55% chance u-turn or volt switch), you can see why Priority Swagger is more problematic. Also the priority part is important - priority will-o-wisp has an extremely narrow distribution and its user only has the one set (Sableye's only set is Will-o-Wisp, Recover, Taunt, Offensive Move) and all other Will-o-Wisp users are really easy to outspeed (even Talonflame) while the two good users of priority swagger can also pack other sets. Is Thundurus-I going to lead off with a swagger? Not necessarily. Klefki can swagger, screen, or use hazards. Zoness fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 09:52
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Bongo Bill posted:Are we sure Pickup users can find Leftovers in X and Y? I've got two level 100 ones and between them they've gotten eight Prism Scales and not even one single extra Leftovers. I've gotten a few, but they do seem rarer than Prism Scales. Re: Item Clause, it seems to me that the most significant difference is that it lets a fully defensive team run 6x Leftovers vs Leftovers, Sitrus, maybe Lum berry, and three other items that don't help a defensive pokemon nearly as much. Offensive teams at least have a huge variety of items to chose from between Life Orb, Choice items, Assault Vest, even Leftovers and Lum berry.
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Feb 23, 2014 10:02
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Bongo Bill posted:Are we sure Pickup users can find Leftovers in X and Y? I've got two level 100 ones and between them they've gotten eight Prism Scales and not even one single extra Leftovers. They can, its really rare. I've gotten one and have spent hours farming items via pickup while thief killing for stuff. I was going to try to farm items for trades while I was burnt out on breeding, but people only really want leftovers now and it is a pain in the rear end.
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Feb 23, 2014 10:07
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:But isn't that essentially what a metagame is? Shouldn't it be about identifying trends and responding to them through new/changing strategies instead of just piling on more rules? Countblanc posted:Unfortunately, the only person "on the inside" I've seen talk about it (a few pages ago) had little good to say about the current beta. We'll see what happens though!
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Feb 23, 2014 11:01
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fade5 posted:Also, use Linoone drat it! I used Linoones in Emerald. When you're running around places just trying to roll Pickup, you can do that kind of thing anywhere.
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Feb 23, 2014 12:01
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It's a Pickup user that can Surf and actually fight for itself with Return/Play Rough/Seed Bomb/Shadow Claw. Yeah, I'm biased for Linoone, I actually went to the trouble of Pokegenning one with Fly/Spore/False Swipe/Softboiled in B/W. He's not transferring to gen 6, obviously.
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Randomly hatched a shiny Goomy while breeding for something decent. 31/31/29/31/31/31.  It's gotta be one of the better special walls out there now. Give it an Assault Vest and a STAB Draco Meteor from Hydreigon will only do around 55%. I love it. Considering also running with a Weakness Policy: it won't last as long, but it'll hit twice as hard. Similar to Dragonite, but with more survivability/no recovery. Anyone tried it?
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Feb 23, 2014 13:05
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Goodpart posted:
The main reason Weakness Policy works on Dragonite is that it can survive most super-effective hits from full health (LO Greninja Ice Beam is the main thing that OHKO's through Multiscale) due to Multiscale with a solid movepool and base bulk and offense to make use of its boosted stats. Also thanks to all those weaknesses, it baits out super-effective attacks a lot of the time. This is in addition to being able to use Dragon Dance to let it outspeed almost any non-scarfed pokemon while Weakness Policy gets proc'd. Also Goodra tends to take neutral physical hits fairly poorly barring investment, so it doesn't really make great use out of Weakness Policy. The issue with most Goodra sets in 6v6 singles play is that Goodra is obviously going to be a wall of sorts but it lacks reliable recovery to let it go head-to-head against another wall. I've messed with bulky Specs or Band Goodra because people don't expect it to hit that hard, or a Hydration/Rest set holding a damp rock as a status absorber. Physical Goodra also can catch people off guard since it has some decent physical moves (Outrage, Power Whip). I'd just advise against trying to use Goodra as a sweeper.
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Feb 23, 2014 13:37
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I started White and it's going kinda slow. I beat the first gym, but only after some tedious grinding against level 4 Patrats. It's gonna pick up, right?
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Feb 23, 2014 13:55
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