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Literally The Worst posted:Because "bad" is a subjective thing based partly on the level you regularly play at and it turns out that dudes who play around the kitchen table might evaluate poo poo a bit differently from people who post trip reports on MURDERGOATS and poo poo. See my edit above about leaving money on the table. "Turns out" that it's not a zero-sum game and something can seem appealing to both competitive players and casuals at the same time. No you're not going to appeal to casual players with a duel deck that's trying to be a precon Modern deck or whatever but nobody who isn't a strawman has actually suggested that.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:00
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Literally The Worst posted:Because "bad" is a subjective thing based partly on the level you regularly play at and it turns out that dudes who play around the kitchen table might evaluate poo poo a bit differently from people who post trip reports on MURDERGOATS and poo poo. Yeah that's fair, but I can't help thinking in the back of my head that those people are wrong. You know?
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Feb 26, 2014 06:02
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Wizards puts out lots of different Magic products aimed at a wide variety of players. If one of those products isn't Good Value to you as a Serious Tournament Player, then, I dunno, don't buy it?Lord Of Texas posted:Best set symbol discussion - go: I always liked Antiquities.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:02
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Decklist is up, just one Remand unfortunately.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:03
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I can't get over how bad that Jace looks.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:04
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JerryLee posted:See my edit above about leaving money on the table. "Turns out" that it's not a zero-sum game and something can seem appealing to both competitive players and casuals at the same time. No you're not going to appeal to casual players with a duel deck that's trying to be a precon Modern deck or whatever but nobody who isn't a strawman has actually suggested that. Why does everything have to be appealing to competitive players?
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Feb 26, 2014 06:05
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Entropic posted:I can't get over how bad that Jace looks. Jace had his hair done up by his mother for church.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:06
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Carrasco posted:Decklist is up, just one Remand unfortunately. That was the default expectation going in, so we haven't actually lost anything. I think it's still a break-even or close enough that picking some up is worth it. A glance at tcgplayer suggests that the Jace, Underworld and Remand by themselves are pretty much break-even or close to it, and you get enough nickels and dimes worth of cool EDH stuff that they seal the deal. Literally The Worst posted:Why does everything have to be appealing to competitive players? It doesn't, if you're fine with leaving money on the table by having the set of people who are excited by your product only be (casual players) instead of (casual players + competitive players).  (obviously I'm generalizing here and there's some overlap between the camps) JerryLee fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Feb 26, 2014 |
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Feb 26, 2014 06:07
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Honestly I don't think the duel decks are especially bad. Limiting them to a Standard card pool like the event decks seems like a bad idea just from a variety standpoint (and doesn't let them use it as a vehicle to print more older-format staples that they don't want in standard). Not making everything a 4-of both increases the variety people will experience while playing the deck, and provides an obvious avenue for improvement when people start looking into deckbuilding. And lastly, you have to remember that there are only going to be $20 of cards between the two decks. By definition. Because if they initially cost more, then the market is going to respond and push those prices down (the alternative is a TNN situation where you can't find the deck at MSRP anywhere). Complaining that "well the duel deck version of Jace is going to drop to $5 straight away" seems like it's a fallacy of some kind.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:07
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Entropic posted:I can't get over how bad that Jace looks. I can't get over how much he looks like Mads Mikkelsen.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:09
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Entropic posted:What is Onslaught even supposed to be? A bug? Whatever Morph creatures are? I wasn't playing when Morph was around, what was the in-universe explanation for what that mechanic was supposed to be doing? The Onslaught symbol is a morphed creature; you can see it on Break Open and sort of on Ixidron.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:10
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JerryLee posted:That was the default expectation going in, so we haven't actually lost anything. I think it's still a break-even or close enough that picking some up is worth it. A glance at tcgplayer suggests that the Jace, Underworld and Remand by themselves are pretty much break-even or close to it, and you get enough nickels and dimes worth of cool EDH stuff that they seal the deal. Reminder that Vraska still is TCG Low $5, so she's not Tibalt -cheap
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Feb 26, 2014 06:12
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Tharizdun posted:Reminder that Vraska still is TCG Low $5, so she's not Tibalt -cheap I was including her under "EDH nickels and dimes" but it didn't occur to me that she's actually worth more than the Connections. I guess it should have given that Connections is like $2.50 and as you say, Tibalt is really the only walker that clocks in around there.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:13
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JerryLee posted:See my edit above about leaving money on the table. "Turns out" that it's not a zero-sum game and something can seem appealing to both competitive players and casuals at the same time. The deck has Remand in it, that card is the poster boy for "cards new/casual players think is terrible" and "Modern cards are too expensive, Remand are 20 dollars!" its very clearly there to also add some appeal to more serious players. Much more risks shifting the appeal of the product from casual consumers to more serious players and would defeat the purpose behind something like the Dual Decks. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Feb 26, 2014 |
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Feb 26, 2014 06:14
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vOv posted:The Onslaught symbol is a morphed creature; you can see it on Break Open and sort of on Ixidron. Why does break open exist?
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Feb 26, 2014 06:15
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JerryLee posted:To put it another way--adding just one more value Modern rare to the duel deck in place of Vinelasher Kudzu or whatever will probably not significantly alienate these casual players from purchasing the product, whereas not having anything remarkable CAN alienate the competitive players, thus leaving money on the table. This is a case where Wizards can eat their cake and have it too. Horseshit, putting multiple valuable modern cards in it ensures that they're snapped up by speculators/Modern players and never reach their intended audience. They've done that before accidentally and it didn't end well, why would they do it deliberately?
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Feb 26, 2014 06:15
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Livingtrope posted:Why does break open exist?
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Feb 26, 2014 06:16
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Stinky Pit posted:The deck has Remand in it, that card is the poster boy for "cards new/casual players think is terrible" and "Modern cards are too expensive, Remand are 20 dollars!" its very clearly there to also add some appeal to more serious players. Yeah Remand is a nice gesture of good faith, I didn't mean to imply that I thought they didn't do anything to add value to the decks. As I've said, I think it's pretty close to break-even on the price.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:17
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Livingtrope posted:Why does break open exist? Plenty of Morph cards had effects that did stuff when you flipped them up. You might want to do it on your terms rather than theirs (flipping up their Grinning Demon on your turn so they lose 2 life for instance) Also, it's endlessly amazing that a card that is basically better than Juzam Djinn exists, and it is less than a buck.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:17
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JerryLee posted:That was the default expectation going in, so we haven't actually lost anything. I think it's still a break-even or close enough that picking some up is worth it. A glance at tcgplayer suggests that the Jace, Underworld and Remand by themselves are pretty much break-even or close to it, and you get enough nickels and dimes worth of cool EDH stuff that they seal the deal. Yeah, I usually pick one one of these things every year because there's a couple $10 rares I need or can trade, and the rest is smattered with cool stuff to throw in the Peasant cube or whatever. Hell, I'm excited to get a Modern-frame Memory Lapse (with the Rebecca Guay art  ) and Consume Strength.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:18
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There's honestly a lot of stuff in those two decks that I'd like (because I play EDH  ) and Remand will make for some decent trade bait.Hell, my birthday is on Friday, so I could justify picking up a copy for no other reason than that. Livingtrope posted:Why does break open exist? Same colors as Warbreak Trumpeteer, if nothing else.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:19
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bhsman posted:There's honestly a lot of stuff in those two decks that I'd like (because I play EDH quote:The X in the ability has the same value as the X paid in the Morph ability. This is pretty easy to derive since there is no other source of X. That is one of the snarkiest Gatherer rulings I've seen. I love it.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:21
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JerryLee posted:Well, you didn't actually address the question of why this necessitates that duel decks be bad. The target audience you rightly point out will probably not turn their nose up at a duel deck that is somewhat better or offers a decent value (and no, it doesn't have to be "all the cards for $20" to be a decent value, before you trot that one out again).  It will include uncommon force of wills and a giant book detailing all the strategy behind it, similar in size to those old gargantuan PC handbooks for Baldur's Gate and Homeworld. I imagine pages upon pages of relevant probability tables mixed in.
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Feb 26, 2014 07:09
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So I'm getting back on the cardboard crack train after three years (stopped playing around when the Alara block started) and I have a few questions. 1) Why is every Magic block not set in Ravnica, the Best Plane.  2) Are we ever going to see four-set blocks like Lorwyn / Shadowmoor again? I loved those blocks and I feel like the four-block format works really well for spreading out the Standard format (also, Kithkin were the best white weenies). 3) Are mill decks viable in Standard or Modern? I was finagling around with Tome Scour, Archaeomancer and Chronic Flooding after getting some M14/RtR cards but I'd like to know if you can make it work when you're in an actual format.
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Feb 26, 2014 07:19
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ungulateman posted:So I'm getting back on the cardboard crack train after three years (stopped playing around when the Alara block started) and I have a few questions. Because WotC can't catch lightning in a bottle twice. RtR was...well, not Ravnica. quote:2) Are we ever going to see four-set blocks like Lorwyn / Shadowmoor again? I loved those blocks and I feel like the four-block format works really well for spreading out the Standard format (also, Kithkin were the best white weenies). Anything's possible. WotC definitely enjoys changing the block structure. quote:3) Are mill decks viable in Standard or Modern? I was finagling around with Tome Scour, Archaeomancer and Chronic Flooding after getting some M14/RtR cards but I'd like to know if you can make it work when you're in an actual format. Viable? Probably not. Possible? Sure.
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Feb 26, 2014 07:27
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Fox of Stone posted:Now I wonder what the most alienating duel deck would be, for both grognards and newbies. Maybe Doomsday combo vs. Miracles. I would buy this and be genuinely torn over which to play.
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Feb 26, 2014 07:38
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ungulateman posted:3) Are mill decks viable in Standard or Modern? I was finagling around with Tome Scour, Archaeomancer and Chronic Flooding after getting some M14/RtR cards but I'd like to know if you can make it work when you're in an actual format. bhsman posted:I would buy this and be genuinely torn over which to play.
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Feb 26, 2014 07:50
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ungulateman posted:2) Are we ever going to see four-set blocks like Lorwyn / Shadowmoor again? I loved those blocks and I feel like the four-block format works really well for spreading out the Standard format (also, Kithkin were the best white weenies). I kind of doubt we see this kind of shake up to the block structure any time soon. The new annual core sets came after Lor/Sha, and the calendar for Wizards is quite nicely packed now around the year with three "expert" sets and a core set each year. Plus now the new sets kinda tie on to the four Pro Tours of the year too. Inside the three annual non-core sets, they can and will mix things up for sure. Theros block is the long due classic, large - small - small style block, after several that were different. quote:3) Are mill decks viable in Standard or Modern? I was finagling around with Tome Scour, Archaeomancer and Chronic Flooding after getting some M14/RtR cards but I'd like to know if you can make it work when you're in an actual format. As such, no. Mill has been a win condition during last Standard in control decks that ran Innistrad card Nephalia Drownyard as a wincon, but straight up "mill deck" as how people general understand that isn't really "viable".
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Feb 26, 2014 07:53
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We've yet to see just how much of an impact Phenax will have, but I don't have my hopes up for the mill strategy getting into top 8s anywhere. But he might scratch that itch. Mosey on over to the deckbuilding thread -- I saw someone posting their Phenax mill build not too long ago...
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Feb 26, 2014 07:56
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Fox of Stone posted:Now I wonder what the most alienating duel deck would be, for both grognards and newbies. Maybe Doomsday combo vs. Miracles. Solidarity vs Spiral Tide . Also, Duel Decks - Flash vs [anything].
Zoness fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Feb 26, 2014 |
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Feb 26, 2014 08:14
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ungulateman posted:
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Feb 26, 2014 08:16
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For anyone that hasn't scoured through their long-neglected card collection and checked card prices, I just did and it turns out that I had close to a grand just in a pile of rares that I thought were terrible when I put them away. Our booster draft group used to play blackjack with 'Butt Rares' and I won a few hundred over the course of a few months, including 4 lion's eye diamonds and 3 show and tells that I never thought about again until I checked prices and holy poo poo I wish I kept that Gaea's Cradle
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Feb 26, 2014 08:42
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You know, with Mt. Gox going down in flames and all the jokes about what they were before they became a bitcoin website, I have to ask: was their MTGO service any good?
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Feb 26, 2014 09:02
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Static Equilibrium posted:There's a b-tier UBw mill deck in modern that you could try to make. It's not great and I imagine the zoo matchup in particular is just awful, but you get to play ancestral recall and punish people for playing fetches which is pretty fun. Actually it loving dominates aggro, mainly due to 4 Crypt Incursion, because gaining 27-39 life at instant speed is pretty good last I checked vs. aggro. Infect is a rough match, however. I would advise against modern turbo-mill, however, as it is absolutely the farthest thing from a budget deck right now, since it not only runs 7 fetches in its manabase, but bullshit cards like Glipse the Unthinkable that shouldn't be $20 but are.
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Feb 26, 2014 09:03
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 One of the many things I loved about Lorwyn was how fun (and sometimes powerful) Merfolk mill was, thanks to that enchantment that made people draw seven times as many cards. Oh well.What's a good place to start for making a reasonably straightforward deck that won't rotate out in two weeks? Are there any good pre-constructed green decks on the market? I like hyper-efficient creature beatdown, when and where I can find it (my first ever card was an 10th Ed Enormous Baloth and it being a vanilla 7/7 for 7 mana made 12 year old me go  in awe).
ungulateman fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Feb 26, 2014 |
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Feb 26, 2014 09:28
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Aww, I missed Restore Balance chat. It's definitely a fun deck, but it's not a good one, and anyone saying it is is lying, at the very least to themselves. I've barely played it at all since trading for most of Fish, which isn't a T1 deck either, but is still miles ahead of RB, at least the Borderpost version. There's a much more resilient version of the deck with a real manabase, but it's no longer a budget deck, and that's one of the main reasons people play the deck to begin with.
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Feb 26, 2014 14:13
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Fox of Stone posted:Now I wonder what the most alienating duel deck would be, for both grognards and newbies. Maybe Doomsday combo vs. Miracles. I'm a terrible causal player but I think Miracles looks fun, the end result is smashing them with a bunch of angels and who doesn't love that. Actually, thinking about it, I have yet to see anyone win with that deck with angels, it's always Vendillion Clique or Snapcaster beat-down, which is actually an even more hilarious way to win.
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Feb 26, 2014 14:37
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Livingtrope posted:I'm a terrible causal player but I think Miracles looks fun, the end result is smashing them with a bunch of angels and who doesn't love that. The most hilarious way I've ever won (three times so far) is playing modern Storm and winning by Goblin Electromancer beat down. It just never gets old.
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Feb 26, 2014 14:46
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Some day I will make Angelic Accord work and my infinite (read: one per turn) army of angels will beat everybody's face in.
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Feb 26, 2014 14:56
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ungulateman posted:3) Are mill decks viable in Standard or Modern? I was finagling around with Tome Scour, Archaeomancer and Chronic Flooding after getting some M14/RtR cards but I'd like to know if you can make it work when you're in an actual format. Don't know of any in standard, but there's a modern mill deck on the fringes. This list managed to 4-0 a daily event online a couple weeks ago. It's not that budget friendly, but if you want to play a mill deck and not lose horribly every round, you pretty much have to go all-out.
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Feb 26, 2014 15:16
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