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Cardiac posted:For instance, Betrayer, which is a good book and elaborates on the World Eaters, does it actually advance the story line at all, well except making Angron a Demon Prince? - Kills off Argel Tal. - Sets Kharn on the path to becoming the Betrayer. - Ties up just what the Word Bearers were doing to prevent Ultramar from reinforcing Terra. - Finishes Lorgar's character arc that started with The First Heretic. - Perpetuals poo poo nobody cares about. I'm a bit confused here, do you want the storyline to "advance", or are you complaining that there's not enough bolter porn?
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Feb 28, 2014 11:04
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Cardiac posted:I'm just reading through Unremembered Empire and I'm starting to get really tired of the whole series. To be honest these books are written and marketed to teenage boys, so it's unfair to expect complicated plots like you'd find in Dumas or something.
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Feb 28, 2014 11:49
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Aziraphale posted:To be honest these books are written and marketed to teenage boys, so it's unfair to expect complicated plots like you'd find in Dumas or something. I guess that says it all.... To be clear, I'm not expecting complicated plots but an elaboration on the whole HH. At the moment in the series it is a little bit too much subplots and not enough epic  battles. I guess we can blame the authors as well, except Abnet, ADB and Wraight. Who ever thought it was a good idea to have Gav Thorpe as an author should be taken out and shot. My memory of him from WD is him losing every single battle report he participated in. Nephilm posted:- Kills off Argel Tal. Both, I guess. If it weren't for bolter porn, I think few of us would read it. That are not really major plot points, it is more tidying up the some side stories that are largely irrelevant to the main storyline. The HH story should, in my mind at least, be relatively straightforward and go something like: Fall of Horus How different traitor legions fall to Chaos Istvaan 1 Istvann 2 Prospero Calth Some background into loyalist legions Assault on Terra and the fighting there Final battle Aftermath. Now it seems we'll get 10 more books before they start besieging Terra, another 10 books covering that and then 10 books covering what happen to various legions after the fall of Horus. This is fast approaching the same levels of ridiculous as DragonLance.
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Feb 28, 2014 13:57
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What's Dragonlance and why was it ridiculous?
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Feb 28, 2014 14:59
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Dragonlance is a series of books that started out as the authors telling the story of their Dungeons and Dragons campaign. The first few books, where this is explicitly the case, are as disjointed and poorly paced as that sounds. Afterward it became a franchise in its own right and is just mired in books upon books which are just absolutely terrible,. Not to mention that many of them focus on utterly minor characters or events, with entire books being given over to characters from a spinoff of a spinoff or to dudes who show up briefly in the original series and don't really mean much in the long run.
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Feb 28, 2014 15:16
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Cardiac posted:I guess that says it all.... Pearl Harbor Germany Japan Victory The Aftermath right? If you want the highlights, read a timeline. Dragonlance had the issue of not having any sort of guidance or end point. The HH has a hard beginning, prominent events, and a hard end. GW is just fluffing out the in-between - if you don't like it, be more selective about the books you read.
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Feb 28, 2014 15:58
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ADB just posted that Talon of Horus a finished, which at this point I believe would mean editing, rewrites, typo hunting and the like are done. Onward to printing and shipping!
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Feb 28, 2014 16:27
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Cardiac posted:I guess that says it all.... The plot is really pretty simple: Horus is seduced by Chaos Persuades nine of his brothers to his side Starts to attack Imperium Imperium is spread too thin to retaliate and shores up Terra Horus attacks Terra, fails, is killed Everything else is just fleshing out. To go into detail about every legion both loyal and traitor would take volumes of books and a level of consistency not yet seen in any of the HH fluff. If anyone is familiar with the Game of Thrones books, it'd be like going into every little faction in Kings Landing alone, which would be a huge task. A lot of the 40K universe is left intentionally vague for good reason.
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Feb 28, 2014 16:55
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Fried Chicken posted:ADB just posted that Talon of Horus a finished, which at this point I believe would mean editing, rewrites, typo hunting and the like are done. Onward to printing and shipping! Well that ought to be a good beach read in summer 2015. berzerkmonkey posted:GW is just fluffing out the in-between - if you don't like it, be more selective about the books you read. Which is why I feel great about only having read the Abnett and ADB entries in the HH series. All the other guys can take a flying gently caress at a rolling ork.
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Feb 28, 2014 17:45
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berzerkmonkey posted:So, a story about WW2 should be To be fair, the Horus HEresy was far more popular than they expected so the already tentative pacing has been revised several times to be longer and longer. Duno, I never liked the whole concept to start with so I'm with him in general.
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Feb 28, 2014 18:51
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What's interesting to me is that they're reversing the normal state of affairs for licensed game novels. Normally, the past is a nebulous murk while the present is fleshed out to ridiculous detail. Take, for instance, the Battletech novels. For all intents and purposes the game history starts in 3025. All you get prior to that point is vague entries in some of the House books. Starting in 3025, though, the novels start covering who's where and what's happening in greater and greater detail until it's hard to find a conflict that doesn't have at least one and usually several novels and game supplements running in it simultaneously. In fact there's almost too much information. Want to be significant during the Clan Invasion? Too bad! All the important poo poo gets done by named characters at Wolcott, Luthien, and Tukayidd! Warhammer 40k, on the other hand, has gone the exact opposite route. Want to know what's happening now? Curious about how far the Hive Fleets have advanced, or where Abbadon and company have gone? gently caress you. Figure that poo poo out yourself. Want to know what happened 10,000 years ago in an era we still haven't published rules for? Why here ya go, have a 30 book or whatever long novel series!
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Feb 28, 2014 20:35
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Given that comparison, I like how 40k turned out better. I mean, Battletech gave us that Dark Ages nonsense.
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Feb 28, 2014 20:39
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It's a difference in philosophy. For Bettletech, and indeed, most game systems turned into novels, the books are a way to encourage you to buy more game product and vice versa. Want to know how the game universe is turning out? Buy the novel that tells you. Want to use that cool new Omnimech you just read about? Better buy the Technical Readout that has the rules for it. And so on and so forth. With 40K its like they've completely split the business. We'll write the books and sell 'em, you make your minatures and sell 'em, and if the two meet it'll be only occasionally and by almost by accident!
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Feb 28, 2014 20:44
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While I agree that the HH took off way better than expected, again, they're just fleshing out an existing skeleton. With 40K, they intentionally leave things vague so you can play the game and create your own story (which nobody does.)
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Feb 28, 2014 21:36
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berzerkmonkey posted:While I agree that the HH took off way better than expected, again, they're just fleshing out an existing skeleton. With 40K, they intentionally leave things vague so you can play the game and create your own story (which nobody does.) I don't think this is true, my friends and I make up tons of fun poo poo both for tabletop armies and for RPG campaigns.
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Feb 28, 2014 21:40
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Cardiac posted:I guess that says it all.... So you'd rather a condensed, boring, straight-to-the-point series with no elaboration, side plots or details whatsoever? I can't believe that this is even a serious complaint. 
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Feb 28, 2014 21:43
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Noctis Horrendae posted:So you'd rather a condensed, boring, straight-to-the-point series with no elaboration, side plots or details whatsoever? I can't believe that this is even a serious complaint.
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Feb 28, 2014 21:48
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I don't think this is true, my friends and I make up tons of fun poo poo both for tabletop armies and for RPG campaigns. Arquinsiel posted:He wants the history book, not the novels. Battletech does this too. It's interesting for a series like that where EVERYTHING is detailed.
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Feb 28, 2014 21:48
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In my eyes, 40K stopped having a tournament scene with 6th edition and enforced 'cinematic' rules.
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Feb 28, 2014 21:50
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Clearly GW is only introducing cinematic, Hollywood action-esque rules so we're relatively prepared for when they make 40k an interactive movie and/or a F2P video game in which you buy your army with real money.
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Feb 28, 2014 21:59
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GW never should have had a tournament scene - 40K is not a balanced game, and never has been. Around 6th, they finally realized this and went the cinematic/storytelling route. Unfortunately, you still have people insisting that 40K tourneys still be a thing.
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Feb 28, 2014 22:16
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berzerkmonkey posted:GW never should have had a tournament scene - 40K is not a balanced game, and never has been. Around 6th, they finally realized this and went the cinematic/storytelling route. Unfortunately, you still have people insisting that 40K tourneys still be a thing. In 5th it got close to being balanced, then they decided "gently caress it, just sell more models" and shat out 6th edition. Because, the target audience of a game that costs large amounts of money and involves hours upon hours of careful modelling and painting of small figurines and reading large and varied rulebooks in order to be played is, clearly, people who just want to rub plastic men against each other while making 'pew pew' noises and drinking bear and eating pretzels.
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Feb 28, 2014 22:55
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Nephilm posted:In 5th it got close to being balanced, then they decided "gently caress it, just sell more models" and shat out 6th edition. Because, the target audience of a game that costs large amounts of money and involves hours upon hours of careful modelling and painting of small figurines and reading large and varied rulebooks in order to be played is, clearly, people who just want to rub plastic men against each other while making 'pew pew' noises and drinking bear and eating pretzels. I agree, unironically. Did you know that Rogue Trader was closer to DnD than a full-blown wargame and included NPCs controlled by a ref?
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Mar 1, 2014 01:52
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Just started Unremembered Empire and love that they already have a Loyal Marine from a Traitor legion. I'd love a few stories just following the struggles of those loyal to the Empire but traitors to their legion. We've seen a loyal Deathguard and Iron Warrior. I'd have included a World Eater and a Thousand Son, but the timeline for the Furious Abyss was a loving mess. I'd just like more stories from their point of view. Perhaps because the majority of the legions don't trust the bands of loyalist traitors they become a legion of their own and become the Firehawks only to have the warp gods strike them down forming them into the Legion of the Damned.
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Mar 1, 2014 06:22
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EyeRChris posted:Just started Unremembered Empire and love that they already have a Loyal Marine from a Traitor legion. I'd love a few stories just following the struggles of those loyal to the Empire but traitors to their legion. James Swallow pet stories about Garro and the start of the inquisition/grey knights is made up mostly of marines from traitor legions. It even has loving Garviel Loken in it. I'd like something of what you describe from a good author in a good book, though.
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Mar 1, 2014 06:34
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PantsOptional posted:Dragonlance is a series of books that started out as the authors telling the story of their Dungeons and Dragons campaign. The first few books, where this is explicitly the case, are as disjointed and poorly paced as that sounds. Afterward it became a franchise in its own right and is just mired in books upon books which are just absolutely terrible,. Not to mention that many of them focus on utterly minor characters or events, with entire books being given over to characters from a spinoff of a spinoff or to dudes who show up briefly in the original series and don't really mean much in the long run. I really liked the annotated chronicles. everything else was kind of hit or miss, but I love D&D stories anyway 
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Mar 1, 2014 08:58
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berzerkmonkey posted:GW never should have had a tournament scene - 40K is not a balanced game, and never has been. Around 6th, they finally realized this and went the cinematic/storytelling route. Unfortunately, you still have people insisting that 40K tourneys still be a thing. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 12:47
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You me and everybody would love a faithful 40K game, Chaos Gate meets Final Liberation with modern graphics. Trouble is that GW seems convinced that this would destroy their bottom line, which is selling real world models. How true is that? Opinions differ, but as long as GW thinks it'd be bad it's not going to happen.
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Mar 1, 2014 14:32
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They would just make the game one giant micro transaction where you have to pay for each figure individually.
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Mar 1, 2014 14:43
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EyeRChris posted:They would just make the game one giant micro transaction where you have to pay for each figure individually. Yeah that is what it comes down to. So long as nerds are happy to spend 20 bucks on cheap plastic mans we probably won't see any faithful adaptation of the game. It is sad, since I'd be more than happy to give them my money if that ever came to pass.
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Mar 1, 2014 14:53
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I'm telling you guys, the future is a virtual 40k F2P MMORTS in which you buy every unit in your army with real money.
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Mar 1, 2014 15:36
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I'm telling you guys, the future is a virtual 40k F2P MMORTS in which you buy every unit in your army with real money. Shut up, they might hear you!
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Mar 1, 2014 16:15
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I'm telling you guys, the future is a virtual 40k F2P MMORTS in which you buy every unit in your army with real money. And when they die they stay down. Unless of course you purchased insurance, but for a nominal fee you can have your army restored to full effectiveness!
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Mar 1, 2014 16:47
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VanSandman posted:Shut up, they might hear you! It's too good of an idea for GW to adopt it. I think that's the criterion for their business decisions actually.
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Mar 1, 2014 18:25
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It is a genuinely interesting question. It would certainly be immensly profitable in the short term. Pretty much anyone who plays the game would buy it. A lot of people who have left the hobby/been put of by the price would buy it. Add in general sales from DOW franchise fans, you'd sell a boatload. Would everyone stop buying their plastic space mens however? A lot of people only buy to paint and/pr enjoy seeing their models on the table. Who knows it might even get more people into the physical game? The interesting thing is that this experiment is taking place. Privateer Press had a big kickstarter for Warmachine Tactics and is basically doing Warmachine, the PC game. It'll be really interesting to see what effect it's release will have on sales of the physical game post-release.
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Mar 1, 2014 19:24
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if you really think people would buy a starcraft 2 where you pay real-world money to build a marine you are legitimately the dumbest person i have ever encountered
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Mar 2, 2014 12:30
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Make a 40k action game with a skylanders type thing. People already pay out their asses for unpainted, unassembled figures (sometimes of dubious quality), just imagine what they'd fork out for painted larger scale figures that you can also plug into a game. Go batshit and give them swappable weapons and wargear. Years ago, Sideshow made polystone 40k statues and those thing sold like hotcakes.
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Mar 2, 2014 12:34
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EyeRChris posted:They would just make the game one giant micro transaction where you have to pay for each figure individually. It seems to me the best way to do that would be a monthly fee that buys you access to one army. You'd be able to pay more per month to have additional army slots given to you.
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Mar 2, 2014 14:35
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I'm personally waiting for someone to do an RPG where you play as an Inquisitor.
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Mar 2, 2014 19:05
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Baron Bifford posted:I'm personally waiting for someone to do an RPG where you play as an Inquisitor. That I think is about to happen with the second edition of Dark Heresy, where you already play Inquisitorial Acolytes. I recall hearing when 2nd ed was unveiled that one of the new things it was going to do was to letting you be able to play as an Inquisitor. Of course considering they scrapped 90% of their rules from the first iteration of the beta because of grognards I have no idea if this was saved or not.
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Mar 2, 2014 19:49
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