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Lt. Danger posted:The Mass Effect 3 original ending is vastly underappreciated. I think a lot of issues people have are based on problems with Bioware's fundamental approach to making games and expectations built up from marketing hype and their own imaginations. In that sense, the ME3 ending would never be good.
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Mar 1, 2014 15:56
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Hey hey me 3 credits are a much more stable currency than bitcoins smol. They also are backed by equipment packs 
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Mar 1, 2014 15:57
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the next game will probably be highly generic and actually bad (as opposed to Mass Effect 3 which is only bad to the most stupid and ignorant of fools) because Bioware have now realised the futility of casting such pearls as a perfect work of art before the swines who make up the bulk, so to speak, of their fanbase.
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Mar 1, 2014 16:04
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2house2fly posted:the next game will probably be highly generic and actually bad (as opposed to Mass Effect 3 which is only bad to the most stupid and ignorant of fools) because Bioware have now realised the futility of casting such pearls as a perfect work of art before the swines who make up the bulk, so to speak, of their fanbase. Source your quotes pls
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Mar 1, 2014 16:11
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2house2fly posted:the next game will probably be highly generic and actually bad (as opposed to Mass Effect 3 which is only bad to the most stupid and ignorant of fools) because Bioware have now realised the futility of casting such pearls as a perfect work of art before the swines who make up the bulk, so to speak, of their fanbase. DA 3 will be the test I think. I'm encouraged by them delaying it by a year, presumably to make it better.
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Mar 1, 2014 16:14
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Strategic Tea posted:The ending sucks because the series had put such an emphasis on unity and working together (under human guidance for renegades) to overcome an overwhelming, uncaring threat. Even in 3, this is the majority of the game. Only for the end to come out and say 'yeah all that is true, all people working together. Oh, unless they're metal people, then it's literally impossible and the bad guys were right.' Axe-man posted:Yeah it also makes all your work with EDI and the geth meaningless. After all the geth universally wanted peace while EDI grew to understand that humans and really people in general were worth saving and living. This was my main gripe about the ending. You can spend the entire game disproving the Catalyst's assertions, but they railroad you into thinking that organics and synthetics could never cooperate; you don't even get an option to bring it up. Their ending clashed with their theme of strength through diversity and they didn't even acknowledge it.
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Mar 1, 2014 16:24
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theCalamity posted:This was my main gripe about the ending. You can spend the entire game disproving the Catalyst's assertions, but they railroad you into thinking that organics and synthetics could never cooperate; you don't even get an option to bring it up. Their ending clashed with their theme of strength through diversity and they didn't even acknowledge it. Not to defend Mass Effect 3, but I think the Catalyst's argument was never 'organics/creators and synthetics/created can never get along.' It's that organics and synthetics will get along until they don't, and destroy each other. To use a rough analogy, it's like responding to 'two growing super powers such as the United States and USSR are bound to get into conflict until one of them ceases to exist' with 'but look, they're working together to fight the Axis powers, how can you reasonably say they will fight each other?' The catalyst is basically taking the view that, yeah, right now in the face of a greater danger everyone gets along. What happens after?
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Mar 1, 2014 17:47
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2house2fly posted:the next game will probably be highly generic and actually bad (as opposed to Mass Effect 3 which is only bad to the most stupid and ignorant of fools) because Bioware have now realised the futility of casting such pearls as a perfect work of art before the swines who make up the bulk, so to speak, of their fanbase. It's mainly going to be bad, imo, because the game is no longer about a pre-determined trilogy that has an ending, but is now a franchise, because all stories in a franchise must lead back to the status quo.
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Mar 1, 2014 17:56
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JawKnee posted:DA 3 will be the test I think. I'm encouraged by them delaying it by a year, presumably to make it better. I don't know anything about DA but games being delayed for a long time usually is a bad, bad sign and the games always end up being a terrible mess.
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Mar 1, 2014 18:01
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Surec posted:Not to defend Mass Effect 3, but I think the Catalyst's argument was never 'organics/creators and synthetics/created can never get along.' It's that organics and synthetics will get along until they don't, and destroy each other. To use a rough analogy, it's like responding to 'two growing super powers such as the United States and USSR are bound to get into conflict until one of them ceases to exist' with 'but look, they're working together to fight the Axis powers, how can you reasonably say they will fight each other?' The catalyst is basically taking the view that, yeah, right now in the face of a greater danger everyone gets along. What happens after? I've seen that argument come up, but that's basically punishing something for what it might do. I would be fine with that if they gave you the option to take your chances with the synthetics and the reapers fully pull out.
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Mar 1, 2014 18:24
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It's just daddy issues all the way down.
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Mar 1, 2014 19:06
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There still should have been 3 possible endings. 1)High EMS, lots of people still alive from all the games: Whoopee! You did it! Shep defeats the Reapers and lives happily ever after with whomever. 2)Not so good EMS, maybe you hosed up the genophage cure or the Quarian/Geth situation. You also thought it was a good idea to have Thane go into the vents and have Mordin and Jack hold the line: Shep self-sacrifices and the Reapers are still beaten, but barely. Things are kind of hosed up and the galaxy will limp its way into the future. 3)TL;DR we're hosed and the Yahg get to try in the next cycle. The higher your EMS the more options available to you. If you have 12,000 EMS at the end of the game but want to kill everything and everyone, that's fine. If you have 2k and want to live with your space waifu, then gently caress you. An ending for everybody from romantics to cynical bastards. How hard would that have been. If they wanted more (artificial) gravitas then even a surviving Shep is blinded or crippled or something so they won't be having more space adventures. I can sort of understand why they didn't want to leave an intact Shepard because then there would always be the pressure of "waaugghh why isn't Shep in the new game? Where's my Shep?  " but set anything 150 years down the road and that's no longer a worry. I'm sure whatever ME4 ends up being there's going to be some reference to the trilogy, unless it's a prequel which is probably an even worse idea than a direct sequel.
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Mar 1, 2014 19:36
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SubponticatePoster posted:There still should have been 3 possible endings. 1)High EMS, lots of people still alive from all the games: Whoopee! You did it! Shep defeats the Reapers and lives happily ever after with whomever. 2)Not so good EMS, maybe you hosed up the genophage cure or the Quarian/Geth situation. You also thought it was a good idea to have Thane go into the vents and have Mordin and Jack hold the line: Shep self-sacrifices and the Reapers are still beaten, but barely. Things are kind of hosed up and the galaxy will limp its way into the future. 3)TL;DR we're hosed and the Yahg get to try in the next cycle. The midrange option would essentially be what we got now - you didn't get all the allies so compromises are going to have to be made on who survives. Lowest option should have been the refuse ending.
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Mar 1, 2014 20:19
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SubponticatePoster posted:There still should have been 3 possible endings. 1)High EMS, lots of people still alive from all the games: Whoopee! You did it! Shep defeats the Reapers and lives happily ever after with whomever. 2)Not so good EMS, maybe you hosed up the genophage cure or the Quarian/Geth situation. You also thought it was a good idea to have Thane go into the vents and have Mordin and Jack hold the line: Shep self-sacrifices and the Reapers are still beaten, but barely. Things are kind of hosed up and the galaxy will limp its way into the future. 3)TL;DR we're hosed and the Yahg get to try in the next cycle. Yeah I mean this might have come off as kind of generic but also would not have engendered a Forever War and put the long-term viability of the franchise in jeopardy.
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Mar 1, 2014 20:26
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Pattonesque posted:put the long-term viability of the franchise in jeopardy. Jesus christ.
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Mar 1, 2014 20:38
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Pattonesque posted:Yeah I mean this might have come off as kind of generic but also would not have engendered a Forever War and put the long-term viability of the franchise in jeopardy. Death to all franchises. If you are disappointed in a cultural product not living up to its franchise name, then you only have yourself to blame for supporting culturally bankrupt media. In deference to that one dude still playing through the game: Shepard has to die, as the end of the game is Shepard achieving apotheosis and remaking the galaxy in their image (until the EC, at least). The whole point is that Shepard has to transcend their mortal form in order to become able to resolve the fundamental creator/created crisis - the completion of an arc from normal 'NPC'-like pre-generated character to a player character avatar acting out player desires in game to pure expression, pure summation of the player's ultimate, personal response to the game's final question. In theory, at least. In that same sense, the relays must be destroyed, as they are (literally, textually, as in what the game says) the apparatus of the creators used to shape, however distantly, each generation of created.
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Mar 1, 2014 20:41
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Somewhere, a hack writer wearing a black cap to hide his baldness is smiling wryly that people are still arguing about the ending two years later...
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Mar 1, 2014 20:45
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Lt. Danger posted:In deference to that one dude still playing through the game: And if they had actually laid the groundwork for that theme before the last ten minutes, it would've been great. As it stands, the ending belongs to a different story than the one told in the preceding game.
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Mar 1, 2014 20:47
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Bongo Bill posted:And if they had actually laid the groundwork for that theme before the last ten minutes, it would've been great. As it stands, the ending belongs to a different story than the one told in the preceding game. Of course it belongs to the same game. You don't get to excise parts of the game because it doesn't have the subtext you think it should have. You didn't think a game about victory through sacrifice might end with the sacrifice of the main character?
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Mar 1, 2014 20:57
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Lt. Danger posted:Of course it belongs to the same game. You don't get to excise parts of the game because it doesn't have the subtext you think it should have. The game is about shooting dudes in space. edited to add: and also workplace sexual harassment SubponticatePoster fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 21:00
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Lt. Danger posted:Death to all franchises. If you are disappointed in a cultural product not living up to its franchise name, then you only have yourself to blame for supporting culturally bankrupt media. :-O Nah I was disappointed for entirely separate reasons, but OK
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Mar 1, 2014 21:06
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Well, the game is about shooting dudes in space. I'm pretty certain I shot a dude in space during the ending, so we're golden!
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Mar 1, 2014 21:08
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Lt. Danger posted:Of course it belongs to the same game. You don't get to excise parts of the game because it doesn't have the subtext you think it should have. It does have, or at least can support, the subtext I think it should have. What's lacking is the text. ... Which, I realize, is exactly the opposite of what I just said. Sorry. Let me put it another way: The main character's named Shepard; it was obviously going to end with a huge Christ allegory where Shepard has to die for the good of all, and according to tradition the player gets to choose exactly what kind of good that is. The problem is the only reason Shepard has to leave their mortal form behind is because an insane and malicious false God who had never before been heard of says it's out of their hands. In Destroy, the only reason Shepard dies is because they stand too close to an explosion! The result is a contrivance that reeks of bathos.
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Mar 1, 2014 21:13
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Lt. Danger posted:Shepard has to die, as the end of the game is Shepard achieving apotheosis and remaking the galaxy in their image (until the EC, at least). The whole point is that Shepard has to transcend their mortal form in order to become able to resolve the fundamental creator/created crisis - the completion of an arc from normal 'NPC'-like pre-generated character to a player character avatar acting out player desires in game to pure expression, pure summation of the player's ultimate, personal response to the game's final question. In theory, at least. Okay, maybe in theory, but they missed the number one rule for writing this kind of ending: don't make it stupid.
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Mar 1, 2014 21:21
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Bongo Bill posted:It does have, or at least can support, the subtext I think it should have. What's lacking is the text. ... Which, I realize, is exactly the opposite of what I just said. Sorry. Let me put it another way: Okay, that's fair. I think contrivance is fair criticism, especially since I think Bioware deliberately was going for something a little more 'out there' than usual. The way I see it, though, Shepard's already dead - they die (figuratively, and arguably are dying literally) during the run on the beam. The beam becomes the 'light' we traditionally see during near-death experience; the Citadel charnel house Shepard is transported to becomes the kingdom of the dead. Inside the Citadel, Shepard confronts the angel and the demon on their shoulder - Paragon and Renegade, Anderson and TIM. Both moralities/father figures collide and in the ensuing conflict destroy one another. Having made their peace with both, Shepard is ready to shuck off the last of their humanity in a meeting with (a failing and insane) God, who they will replace as architect of the new paradigm. In a sense, we see Shepard die right before our eyes. But if you want a more textual reason, Shepard is shown as gutshot moments before rising into the Catalyst's chamber. I don't think the character would care much about surviving an explosion in the middle of a galactic space battle when they're already bleeding out.
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Mar 1, 2014 21:28
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I just want say that I liked the concept when it was more about dark matter acting weird. All of these these concepts really are last minute and shoehorned. I knew the instant the game started Shep would die. As everyone said, but yeah, the choices took away any agency I felt like I had. It took like people pushing me too actually complete the ending as it no longer mattered.
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Mar 1, 2014 22:00
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theCalamity posted:I've seen that argument come up, but that's basically punishing something for what it might do. I would be fine with that if they gave you the option to take your chances with the synthetics and the reapers fully pull out. Oh sure, I agree. I'm just pointing out that 'Look, a galaxy is united against you' isn't some smoking gun that the catalyst is dead wrong, as I've seen people argue. And that level of uncertainty, I think, is pretty interesting and adds something to the destroy ending, at least. "Why did you shoot me with that Scorpion?" asked the Krogan. "Now we will both die." "Why?" responded the Salarian. "It is my nature."
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Mar 1, 2014 22:12
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Bongo Bill posted:It does have, or at least can support, the subtext I think it should have. What's lacking is the text. ... Which, I realize, is exactly the opposite of what I just said. Sorry. Let me put it another way: Except that Bioware has repeatedly stated that Commander Shepard is named after astronaut Alan Shepard, and has nothing to do with Jesus in any way.
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Mar 1, 2014 22:32
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CaptainCarrot posted:Except that Bioware has repeatedly stated that Commander Shepard is named after astronaut Alan Shepard, and has nothing to do with Jesus in any way. It's not a puzzle. You don't 'solve' Bioware's Mass Effect: 3.
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Mar 1, 2014 22:42
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Shepard doesn't even have to die. He is heavily implied to live in the High EMS Destroy Ending. Whether he bleeds out or is found and recovers is up to headcanon. As for me. I hate the Catalyst and its Reaper abominations, Control and Synthesis have zero appeal to me, and I want Shepard to kill all the Reapers and live with Tali in a home on Rannoch. It sucks that the Geth and Edi die, but I believe they will be honored by the rest of the galaxy by making a future that won't tear itself apart like that guddam pop up keeps spewing. Heavy Sci-fi themes like transcendence and transhumanism have no appeal to me. I like shooting dudes in space. SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 22:52
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SgtSteel91 posted:Shepard doesn't even have to die either. He is heavily implied to live in the High EMS Destroy Ending. Whether he bleeds out or is found is up to headcanon. Yeah same here. I absolutely loath with all my heart transhumanism. Really the destroy was the only option I could see. I mean. Sure EDI and the geth die for bullshit reasons but eh. I can live with it. Really without those issues it would have been the default one for me. The control and synthesis have no appeal at all to me. And giving machines Shep DNA is even sillier than machine god shep
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Mar 1, 2014 22:59
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Clearly the ideal, you might say final solution to the inter-species problems in the ME universe is to homogenize everyone into the same pseudo-race. Synthesis is such garbage.
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Mar 1, 2014 23:32
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JawKnee posted:Clearly the ideal, you might say final solution to the inter-species problems in the ME universe is to homogenize everyone into the same pseudo-race. Dragon Age 2 had a character use the term "Tranquil Solution" and it was p. squicky when he did
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Mar 1, 2014 23:34
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Pattonesque posted:Dragon Age 2 had a character use the term "Tranquil Solution" and it was p. squicky when he did haha yeah I remember that. DA2 was a mess. The only thing I think they did right was the voice-acting, and maybe some of the character design when they weren't going for emo FF elves and poo poo.
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Mar 1, 2014 23:40
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Yeah, I just found it deeply uncomfortable that the option presented as "best" was to forcibly rewrite the genetic material in every living being in the entire galaxy. Not to mention that after doing so, the only person who knows why and how it all happened evaporated into a fine mist.. Imagine waking up one morning and suddenly every living creature on the planet was glowing green and had bits of metal sticking out of them and nobody knew why. How horrifying that would be, how traumatic and disturbing it would be, and worst of all, nobody will ever know why it happened. The "best" ending to the Mass Effect universe is turning it into a Cronenberg movie.
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Mar 1, 2014 23:42
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A strange game. The only winning move is not to play to the end. How about a nice game of chess?
Axe-man fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Mar 2, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 23:50
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Powers that refuse to activate until you press them with a bit of feeling are just wonderful. Jacob. Jacob getting shot. Oh wow, if you decide to gently caress with Gavin Archer you're not even given a prompt to go "hey man, I was just kidding about your brother being dead, don't shoot yourself just yet." Hah. This "Sanctuary" place - I am absolutely positive I'm never going to have a mission there while it's (ever so ironically) chock-full of Reapers / indoctrinated guys. So I finished shooting all the dudes, and I get the choice to delay the mission completion. I'm assuming I either have the chance to scour the battlefield for missed upgrades, or get to talk to people and somehow affect the mission ending. Neither is the case - the game just wants to make sure I have a chance to talk to Jacob. Cutscene of Jacob gunning down some Cerberus to troops to establish him as (still?) a badass. Tripping some clowns would have done a better job of it (particularly since they were all firing at a single person and failing to hit her in an awesome display of Saturday morning cartoon villainy_. The military strength bar is full now, but chances of success are still "low but measurable". Huh. Zaeed is putting Jessie back together. That means more to me than the entirety of Jacob's mission. And I don't even care that much about Zaeed (RIP his voice actor) "Nah, it was just us. But mostly me." See, that's the kind of thing that would work better if I could put more than two guys at once into my party while the rest waited on the airship. If you happen to miss something while out on a mission (maybe because it ends automatically and the seeming chance to check for items you missed is nothing of the sort) you can purchase the item at the Spectre shop. Nice. On the other hand, why doesn't a double click open the shop inventory? Why do I have to highlight the shop, carefully move the mouse cursor out of the way so that it doesn't highlight a different shop by mistake, then navigate down to "open store"? "Nope, it was murder". Followed by a facepalm. Careful, Shepard, you may get me to like you again. Yeah, I'm absolutely sure they are going to retreat instead of continuing this suicide run. At least extract a pinky swear, Shepard. Tali'Zorah Vas Normandy  And now for a rousing game of "hunt the quarian". Oh, I guess she's not on the ship at all. The game is rescheduled until further missions are completed. Oh, she's a part of the squad? Odd. (But at least I FINALLY have another squad member. Besides Ashley, I mean) Again, space is BIG. I've been told you can also fly around in it - you know, instead of charging into spitting distance and trading broadsides while stationary. The best part of KoToR were the slow spacesuit sequences, right? Let's bring those back. The rotation thing is nice though. I was kinda hoping you could bump the fragments and send them flying away, but guess not. See what they've done with admiral Qwib Qwib should have been done with Udina - yeah, he tried to gently caress you over, but now he's the only Admiral besides Tali who is not complete moron. I really expected a solo Shepard combat section. Mines. Ow. Legion has a different voice thing that I'm not fond of. His movements are also way too fluid and organic. I'm shocked at this sudden plot twist. Also, charging right into a Geth Prime is a poor idea (particularly when the game constantly refuses to accept your charge and nova commands) It's a petty sort of revenge, and rather Whedon-lite - "you got a bunch of people killed, so... I'll punch you in the nuts", but in the words of Shepard, "I'LL TAKE IT".
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Mar 2, 2014 00:20
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Xander77 posted:Legion has a different voice thing that I'm not fond of. His movements are also way too fluid and organic.
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Mar 2, 2014 00:50
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See I did the opposite with the Quarians. Shepard told them he was happy they were taking their homeworld back, that things would probably be better if their ancestors did manage to defeat the Geth, planned with them to go on the offensive when the Reaper Signal went out, then told Grell he made the right choice but should have let him know ahead of time. Dude shoulder checks Tali on the way out. Come on man, I'm on your side here! 
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Mar 2, 2014 00:54
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After the easiest bossfight ever, Kai Leng effortlessly beats my team in a cutscene. gently caress you, Bioware. What a garbage, horribly designed character. What a garbage, horribly designed mission. If you're going to make a mission impossible to win, don't also make it stupidly easy and unstoppably snatch away victory in a goddamn cutscene. Elysiume fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Mar 2, 2014 |
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Mar 2, 2014 02:15
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