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I'm DMing a 4E game for some people completely new to pen-and-paper RPGs who were curious about D&D. It's kind of intimidating, and I want them to have a good experience. I've generated a set of characters for them so we can jump right into rolling dice, and I figured I could just throw them into a tavern in a frontier town and give them an obvious adventure hook in which they'd go commit goblin genocide. Goblins seemed like they'd make a good enemy as you can design a weak encounter with them or give them bugbear/hobgoblin allies, they're fond of crude traps, and their dwellings are a mess (great for making interesting terrain). Characters we'll be rolling:
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Mar 5, 2014 15:32
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Dr Cheeto posted:I'm DMing a 4E game for some people completely new to pen-and-paper RPGs who were curious about D&D. It's kind of intimidating, and I want them to have a good experience. Using the Essentials versions won't make them simpler. Essentials Clerics and Wizards are no simpler than their base versions. Using the specialist characters is probably fine. It might get the players more excited about their characters than a more general assortment of powers would be.
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Mar 5, 2014 15:50
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Dr Cheeto posted:I haven't fleshed out the characters at all outside of giving them alignments and deities. I don't know if I'm making characters that are too complex, or if I should be using the Essentials versions of fighter/cleric/wizard/rouge instead. Should I retool the wizard and rogue to be more generalists rather than the specialists that they are (illusionist and super sneaky hand crossbow user, respectively)? Play once and talk to them after. They may want to switch characters or have them re-done as the other things you've mentioned, or not, but you won't know until they've taken them out for a spin.
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Mar 5, 2014 15:51
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homullus posted:Play once and talk to them after. They may want to switch characters or have them re-done as the other things you've mentioned, or not, but you won't know until they've taken them out for a spin. Yeah, I don't think they'd use them outside of this session, I just wanted to give them some characters which had clear purposes and simple rules so they could start crushing skulls with the best of them.
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Mar 5, 2014 16:12
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Dr Cheeto posted:I'm DMing a 4E game for some people completely new to pen-and-paper RPGs who were curious about D&D. It's kind of intimidating, and I want them to have a good experience. I'm reserved about the rogue if you're rolling with RAW small weapons rules because hey, halfling will forever be stuck with the hand crossbow and not really get cool things for it. Might just be the CharOp I've kind of been wired to do at least slightly. Either way if he's ranged and doesn't have Preparatory Shot or Distant Advantage you'll need to put covering terrain in every fight (which is something you should do anyway, feature rich environments are cooler then the featureless flat lands for fighting) for him to get Sneak Attack which'll be his big money damage. And why get the old Weapon Expertise (Hammer) when Bludgeon Expertise does the same thing with additional benefits? Just to keep Tide of Iron from pushing foes 2 squares? E:Typo fixes
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Mar 5, 2014 16:36
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ArkInBlack posted:I'm reserved about the rogue if you're rolling with RAW small weapons rules because hey, halfling will forever be stuck with the hand crossbow and not really get cool things for it. Might just be the CharOp I've kind of been wired to do at least slightly. Either way if he's ranged and doesn't have Preparatory Shot or Distant Advantage you'll need to put covering terrain in every fight (which is something you should do anyway, feature rich environments are cooler then the featureless flat lands for fighting) for him to get Sneak Attack which'll be his big money damage. And why get the old Weapon Expertise (Hammer) when Bludgeon Expertise does the same thing with additional benefits? Just to keep Tide of Iron from pushing foes 2 squares? Thanks, Bludgeon Expertise slipped my notice and I did not realize that sneak attack damage applies whenever the rogue has combat advantage against a target. I'm not sure what you mean about RAW regarding small weapons. Is there a dearth of rogue skills that use hand crossbows or slings?
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Mar 5, 2014 17:13
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unseenlibrarian posted:"Kobold army close to the town gates" sounds almost like you were playing Keep on the Shadowfell and ran into Irontooth. _That_ encounter was a PC-killer if ever there was one. Maybe so. I'm not really sure why he felt the need to throw so much at a party like us. I mean, I was the most inexperienced person there but not by any wide margin. I get that the game is supposed to be challenging and all, but I think that raking new players over the coals is probably the wrong way to go about things. I'm as new as it gets to D&D, but I've played enough games in general to recognize bullshit when I see it. It was pretty fun regardless, though. There's a fairly steep learning curve involved, but I think I understand encounter mechanics as long as there isn't anything overly fancy going on.
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Mar 5, 2014 17:15
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Dr Cheeto posted:I'm DMing a 4E game for some people completely new to pen-and-paper RPGs who were curious about D&D. It's kind of intimidating, and I want them to have a good experience. Be prepared for some people just saying "I attack the orc" when their turn comes, so pick a dead simple at-will that does a bit more damage or pushes an enemy to be their "default" attack. The Essentials non-caster classes were apparently designed to let people just use their basic attack over and over, but with all the stances and the auras and poo poo it's actually more complicated than having a simple at-will IMHO.
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Mar 5, 2014 17:38
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Dr Cheeto posted:Yeah, I don't think they'd use them outside of this session, I just wanted to give them some characters which had clear purposes and simple rules so they could start crushing skulls with the best of them. I'd say Essentials (martial) classes work better for introducing people to the game; at least, I wish we'd had them when I was first playing. In my experience it's a lot easier to take a guy new to the game and point to, say, the Slayer, and tell him "This guy beats the gently caress out people with weapons, and he's pretty tough." Or the Thief, "This guy deals lots of damage and is focused on moving around the battlefield." Or the Knight, "This guy protects his allies by standing next to them, does good damage and is real tough." Comparing the Knight and Fighter for a second, someone playing the Fighter has to learn what a Mark is, how it's applied, how Combat Challenge works ("Can't use that now, Tom, you used it already this round." "What, why?"), difference between that and an OA, what his powers do, when he wants to use them, etc. Meanwhile, the Knight can just stand around and hit things that try to attack his friends, and not get bogged down in rules minutia while he's still trying to learn the basics. People often find Essentials classes kinda boring though, so if you're not worried about the learning curve for your group, regular classes will work fine. Just offering my 2 cents.
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Mar 5, 2014 18:12
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If they're coming from other RPGs, the Fighter's perfectly fine, in all honesty. My first 4e character was a Fighter and I picked up pretty quickly. It's the class that teaches you the most about the ways actions are limited on a turn/round basis.
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Mar 5, 2014 18:46
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Dr Cheeto posted:Thanks, Bludgeon Expertise slipped my notice and I did not realize that sneak attack damage applies whenever the rogue has combat advantage against a target. RAW stands for Rules As Written, which regards Small races like halflings and their ability to use medium sized weapons. Small creatures can't use two handed medium weapons unless they have the 'Small' tag, and similarly have to use Versatile one handed weapons with two hands unless it's 'Small'. If you roll with that the halfling rogue will forever be stuck with the hand crossbow where medium sized rogues could pick up other, better crossbows down the road, since their ranged powers work with any crossbow, not just hand. Granted this'll mean nothing if the character is used one session and dropped forever, but if the person grabs the rogue and is wants to stick with it as is, future problems could crop up. It's something most of the group I introduced to tabletop RPGs did. As for the session itself, depending on how long it runs consider having a goblinoid army attack the town and have the PCs near each other so they are forced to work together to not get overrun. As they beat back a small force of goblins while the town guard/militia forces back the rest, someone important notices how well they did and hires them to go harass them back. Gives a good reason for the characters to work together when its "hey you and three other people are in this square and a buncha goblins roll up, too many to take on by yourself". Give a nice rolling start.
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Mar 6, 2014 02:04
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You can nip the entire discussion in the bud by noting that Rogue powers were all errated to be hand crossbow only. Superior Crossbow rogues are no longer a thing, and the Dagger is the Rogue's best weapon, regardless of whether they work at melee or at range.
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Mar 6, 2014 23:08
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thespaceinvader posted:You can nip the entire discussion in the bud by noting that Rogue powers were all errated to be hand crossbow only. why Seriously, was there ever any reason given for the change? Red Metal fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Mar 6, 2014 |
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Mar 6, 2014 23:12
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Because crossbows are literally the worst weapon. No other item in the game takes so long to reload.
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Mar 6, 2014 23:28
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djw175 posted:Because crossbows are literally the worst weapon. No other item in the game takes so long to reload.
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Mar 6, 2014 23:51
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Or an Ocular Adept, or just take Speed Loader. I have no idea why they made that change, but it made crossbow rogues pretty pointless. Basically the only reason for a Rogue to wield a crossbow is if they're a Daggermaster and take two-fisted shooter, the feat that lets you make an rba with an off-hand crossbow on a crit.
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Mar 7, 2014 00:14
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Can you get the psychic tag on your attacks using a dagger? Because Mindiron is pretty much the ultimate-level lockdown rogue weapon.
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Mar 7, 2014 00:17
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djw175 posted:Because crossbows are literally the worst weapon. No other item in the game takes so long to reload. Repeating Crossbow  I used one on my Ranger|Rogue hybrid in heroic; hurray for having Ranger weapon proficiencies with Sneak Attack from across the map because gently caress burning a feat for Prime Shot.
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Mar 7, 2014 00:17
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P.d0t posted:I used one on my Ranger|Rogue hybrid in heroic; hurray for having Ranger weapon proficiencies with Sneak Attack from across the map because gently caress burning a feat for Prime Shot. Is there a version of Treetop Sniper that lets you Sneak Attack with crossbows? Haven't played one in so long.
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Mar 7, 2014 00:29
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P.d0t posted:Repeating Crossbow ...because having to spend a standard action to reload every ten shots (on a ranger|rogue that's maybe two turns) is better than having to spend a minor or a feat to reload after each standard action? (Two turns: Three-hitter AP two hitter, disruptive strike, minor action attack, two hitter, other immediate, admittedly something of an extreme case). Repeating crossbows are terrible, especially when you can't even use them (Rogue errata again). If you're not using a superior xbow when you have the ability, you're better off with a longbow, generally. (Protip, the elf feat that lets you use any bow with Rogue powers still works, I believe (Treetop Sniper).) E: No, there's not a version of Treetop Sniper for Crossbows, it's just that when Rogues were originally written they could use any crossbow with their powers and Sneak Attack rather than just hand crossbows.
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Mar 7, 2014 00:42
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 Load:minor doesn't play well with Quarry sometimes. Anecdotal, but I never ended up having to reload in combat. loving errata, ruining my life though; I didn't even know of that one.
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Mar 7, 2014 01:22
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No, using crossbows costs an extra feat or a PP or weapon choice, or it's pretty non-viable. Or hand crossbows.
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Mar 7, 2014 19:03
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I admit, I played a Drow sniper rogue who had all the feats to make Hand Crossbow be less terrible so I could run around John Wooing at people with dual hand crossbows. It's me, I'm what's wrong with 4E.
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Mar 7, 2014 20:35
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unseenlibrarian posted:I admit, I played a Drow sniper rogue who had all the feats to make Hand Crossbow be less terrible so I could run around John Wooing at people with dual hand crossbows. It's me, I'm what's wrong with 4E. What's wrong with 4E is that such a great concept is not as viable as a default build.
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Mar 7, 2014 20:37
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unseenlibrarian posted:I admit, I played a Drow sniper rogue who had all the feats to make Hand Crossbow be less terrible so I could run around John Wooing at people with dual hand crossbows. It's me, I'm what's wrong with 4E. I'm playing one of those right now and it's fun as hell. If it's the wrong way to play 4e I don't want to be right.
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Mar 7, 2014 20:39
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Wahad posted:I'm playing one of those right now and it's fun as hell. If it's the wrong way to play 4e I don't want to be right. Why? Why would you want to do that? It's not realistic and destroys my versimilitude  I mean we should stick to gritty realism and naturalistic environments in our games of Dungeons & Dragons  In all seriousness, it sounds like fun. Which feats does it take?
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Mar 7, 2014 21:28
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It does sound like fun, and it should work better by RAW.
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Mar 7, 2014 21:57
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Here's the summary. Mind, the GM gave us some extra feats, so you'll probably want to include those over some others. Still holding out for Mindiron crossbows, since those will amp up my control a bit more when I take psychic lock, but otherwise it's still pretty drat serviceable. If you want to see the action, go over to Tempus Fuggit in TGR.quote:====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
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Mar 7, 2014 22:04
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Just as a warning, if you don't like to see rules horribly twisted, my vampire zombie vampire werewolf vampire cleric snaps the death rules in two. Although it hasn't come up yet, so it's not so bad.
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Mar 7, 2014 22:12
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Oh so a while ago I asked the 4E thread about what they would do to make bullywugs playable. Barring anything more creative and difficult to implement, three bonus feats seemed to do it. I didn't specify what feats they had to be.
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Mar 7, 2014 22:33
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A proper racial encounter power wouldn't hurt.
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Mar 8, 2014 02:10
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The Leper Colon V posted:A proper racial encounter power wouldn't hurt.
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Mar 8, 2014 02:47
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Wow, this rogue talk is blowing my mind. We mostly use the character builder, and it never once mentioned that the shortbow didn't work with them. Unrelatedly, taking a break from my campaign to let a player run a one-shot, he's having us all make wizard types. Three controllers should be fun.
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Mar 8, 2014 07:29
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Oh so a while ago I asked the 4E thread about what they would do to make bullywugs playable. Barring anything more creative and difficult to implement, three bonus feats seemed to do it. I didn't specify what feats they had to be. One of my players once made a heroic Bullywug Valiant Bard who was basically Frog from Chrono Trigger, and I gave him specific feats and changed his racial to something that wasn't depressing and garbage. It was with the specific intent to make him seem more heroic and less like a wart on the face of reality, so I'm not sure how applicable it is to the standard race as presented in the monster manual. They were also not playtested or balanced very well(or at all), but they might be an interesting starting point if nothing else. Racial quote:Violent Hop (Minor Action; Bullywog Racial Power; encounter) - Weapon Feats quote:Camouflaged skin:
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Mar 8, 2014 09:54
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Minor-action MBA is VERY powerful (for comparison it costs the Eladrin, the only other race I believe that CAN get such pre-Epic, a class-specific feat and a theme to do it, and for the Half-Elf, the other one, it costs an Epic feat and a specific dilettante choice), and predisposes them HUGELY towards weapon classes (Consider if you will a Bullywug Slayer with that power...). Giving them a minor action attack is fine, but it should look more like Thri Kreen Claws. I'd give them minor action one target melee 3 pull (or maybe slide) two and knock prone. Sticky Tongue. +3/6/9 vs Ref.
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Mar 8, 2014 10:05
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Yeah, I should mention I made these the very first time I played the game and haven't touched them since. This is the same game where I didn't think letting a player tame a low level monster and use it in battle like a pokemon would lead to any problems. I think my reasoning at the time was that Bullywugs were basically gimped otherwise, so having a good racial would balance things like only having one skill bonus and all that. I just thought the idea of a frog guy jumping around to slash folk might be cool. Obviously it could be reworked to be something like a free 4 square shift before (or maybe after) a standard attack, once per encounter, sort of like a reworked fey step that's inherently tied to attacking. Or maybe even more specific, like letting you shift up to X squares to get into position to do your next attack better, whether it's jumping into melee range or jumping to a ranged position where a foe no longer has cover. But I like your tongue-pulling idea, too. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Mar 8, 2014 |
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Mar 8, 2014 10:12
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Standard action, jump-without-provoking 4 and make an at-will attack which slows on a hit sounds good and useful for everyone - useful for the caster to get out of a pinch, useful for the defender/melee striker to get INTO a pinch.
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Mar 8, 2014 10:49
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So EN Publishing came out with an "expanded" Player's Guide for the Zeitgeist adventure path. Some of the paragon paths it has are really drat cool. Very powerful, but very cool. Among them? A mecha pilot, a gunner who changes their firearm into a blaster, a rock star, and a guy who argues philosophy into reality. In other words, you should check it out even if you're not running the Path. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353204-Extended-ZEITGEIST-Player-s-Guide-(4E)
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Mar 8, 2014 16:17
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I as DM nearly killed the entire party in the first encounter of the slaying stone against some wolves. Rolled 4 crits and only 1 miss. At the end there was one guy standing with less than 10 HP.
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Mar 8, 2014 23:57
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The Belgian posted:I as DM nearly killed the entire party in the first encounter of the slaying stone against some wolves. Rolled 4 crits and only 1 miss. At the end there was one guy standing with less than 10 HP. Get a shittier d20.
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Mar 9, 2014 08:44
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