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...I thought Cell and Piccolo had their first fight before he merged with Kami? Which, by the way, is probably going to be great. Best joke of the episode was 16 mistaking Krillen for a duck, IMO. I will say, I really enjoy how they're playing 17 and 18. Their banter's a lot of fun. I am interested to see how Team Four Star handles the absorption scenes - because they're both creepy as hell and 18's is kind of rapey. Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Mar 8, 2014 |
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Mar 8, 2014 07:19
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Spiritus Nox posted:Best joke of the episode was 16 mistaking Krillen for a duck, IMO. Best everything was Krillen. Every line of his was funny this episode. But yeah, Cell saga isn't nearly as fun as Frezia saga was. The Frezia saga had a whole bunch of fun fights and unquie characters popping up all the time. The Cell saga, on the other hand, stays with more or less the same crew for it's entire run. Fortunately the androids are fun right now, and if Cell is done right then we're in for a good time, but it won't top Frezia's saga.
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Mar 8, 2014 07:33
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SatansBestBuddy posted:Best everything was Krillen. Every line of his was funny this episode. To be fair, that's true of the actual series, too. Remember when Vegeta and Krillen and Gohan were all sneaking around and coming up with ways to avoid or surprise stronger opponents and taking advantage of and backstabing each other and injecting all these interesting subtleties beyond "POWER UP HARDER, BENEFIT FROM SAIYAN RESPAWN BONUS/GET ANGRY, BEAT BAD GUY UP?" Not that the rest of the series was terrible, but it lost some things when it stopped pretending that anyone other than Saiyans and occasionally Piccolo was allowed to be important for more than a couple of episodes at a time.
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Mar 8, 2014 07:41
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You usually hear how bad the whole Namek affair is for having such a static, boring location. However, you are right, it did have was a colorful cast of alien villains to fight. Though I personally like the Androids better anyway. Even the fat clown thing.
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Mar 8, 2014 07:42
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Honestly, I just really want to see Cell at this point because there's a number of ways they could play him and I'm not sure which way they're going to go. The most obvious choice is having him be a relative straight man, but considering Freeza just did that...
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Mar 8, 2014 07:46
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I liked Nail's comment on the tone shift. So very true. The Cell Saga has to be the darkest, most serious business storyline ever in DB. Which I guess is why so many people hate it but I think it's the one arc that really made DBZ stand apart from DB in a good way.
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Mar 8, 2014 07:46
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NikkolasKing posted:I liked Nail's comment on the tone shift. So very true. The Cell Saga has to be the darkest, most serious business storyline ever in DB. Which I guess is why so many people hate it but I think it's the one arc that really made DBZ stand apart from DB in a good way. Well, again, he is a creepy motherfucker. I really have no idea how they plan on making him absorbing 18 funny. Like I said, I watched that scene recently and holy poo poo it's rapey as hell.
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Mar 8, 2014 07:48
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It definitely is. I think you could easily make it funny though simply by having 18 say funny stuff while she's being absorbed. "Why you...! When I get outta here I'm gonna give you what for!" Obviously I'm not funny but I think a big part of the rapey-ness of the original was Eighteen's reaction and if you make that more comedic, the scene is a lot less creepy. Like this scene. It's no less hosed up but I can see TFS having a field day with Nail and Kami in Piccolo's head going "hey...maybe you should stop him or something."
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Mar 8, 2014 07:58
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So, on the tonal shift, parody is protected speech but if it gets too serious and literally becomes decompressed DBZ at times, then could it count as copyright infringement?
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Mar 8, 2014 07:58
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I highly, highly doubt it comes to that. The tonal switch at the end of the episode was itself a gag.
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Mar 8, 2014 08:06
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In general, Frieza was far easier to parody. Frieza's haughty mannerisms, the Ginyu squad being a parody already, Vegeta's arrogance constantly getting the best of him, etc. I am reminded of Buttlord GT, which ended specifically for that reason: it's way easier to mock Dragonball in the Frieza saga. Cell saga is far more serious. That's also why Toriyama shifted things back to comedy for Buu.
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Mar 8, 2014 08:13
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WickedHate posted:So, on the tonal shift, parody is protected speech but if it gets too serious and literally becomes decompressed DBZ at times, then could it count as copyright infringement? I have no idea, but I doubt this is going to last long. Kami is just a naturally serious character, so when he doesn't have a total goof to play against the scene is going to have more of a dramatic sense to it. Fortunately, Nail will complement his straight man routine well. NikkolasKing posted:It definitely is. Probably the best way to do it would be to get past it quickly and have Krillin comment about how loving gross it was. Arsonist Daria fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Mar 8, 2014 |
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Mar 8, 2014 08:14
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I've been enjoying TFS' Android Saga just about as much as I did the latter half of the Frieza Saga. They're really good at taking little things about the characters from the source material and making a believable yet much funnier interpretation of them. Most of the characters in DBZ are, quite frankly, incredibly shallow a lot of the time, even if they do get depth to them later on like Vegeta and Gohan eventually did. DBZ Abridged doesn't give every single bit part a complex personality but it sure as hell does it with a lot of them. None of the stuff 17 and 18 are saying sounds "out of character," but obviously they'd never actually say a lot of it in the real version. I really like their interpretation of them as irresponsible teens with superpowers just out to have a good time. Which, now that I type it out, isn't exactly super far from the canonical versions, but it doesn't come across nearly as well in DBZ proper, I feel like.
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Mar 8, 2014 08:22
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WhiffleballDude posted:None of the stuff 17 and 18 are saying sounds "out of character," but obviously they'd never actually say a lot of it in the real version. I really like their interpretation of them as irresponsible teens with superpowers just out to have a good time. Which, now that I type it out, isn't exactly super far from the canonical versions, but it doesn't come across nearly as well in DBZ proper, I feel like. Yeah this is my favorite thing about the Android saga so far. I wonder how they plan to address how loving serious and evil they are in Trunks' timeline, though. I mean, the show certainly did a poo poo job of it but TFS usually finds a way to tell a great joke in spaces like that.
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Mar 8, 2014 08:31
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Popo's little moment was funny, but drat Krillin's observations and comments just killed me for this episode. 17 and 18 are still putting in some good material too. Other than that though the episode felt a bit slower than last, though I kinda expected that after Vegeta's Glorious Carnival of Failure. Good ep, not amazing but still was fun to watch.
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Mar 8, 2014 08:41
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Solid episode! Great stuff as usual. I wonder what it's like to be so picky where you think about the decline (that I don't think exists) in quality.
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Mar 8, 2014 08:44
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Regarding Freeza Saga vs Cell Saga, and why the Cell Saga kinda sucks by comparison: It helps that the Freeza Saga actually has a plot and narrative. Each of the major characters had a motivation, and their actions moved the story forward. Characters make decisions and actually do things. Its very fast-paced and the situation is constantly changing. I can't even remember how the Cell Saga goes, except vaguely. It sort of meanders and there are lulls where people are just waiting around for something to happen. And this is more nerdy, but I don't like how the androids are stronger than Freeza or Super Saiyans. Freeza was hyped up as being like the ultimate evil bad guy in the universe, and the legendary Super Saiyan was the only thing that could top him. But then they get back to Earth and a couple of teenagers with upgrades just bitch slap them into a mountain. I think it's their character design more than anything else, though. Something about seeing normal-looking humans with normal-looking (for DBZ) street clothes flying around beating up Super Saiyans just seems wrong. Maybe if they wore martial arts-y clothing or weird space armour, it might work better visually.
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Mar 8, 2014 09:57
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Because if they were weaker than freiza and super Saiyans I'm sure that would work out great story wise.
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Mar 8, 2014 10:00
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Blue Star posted:Something about seeing normal-looking humans with normal-looking (for DBZ) street clothes flying around beating up Super Saiyans just seems wrong. I'm like 90% sure that was the point.
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Mar 8, 2014 10:10
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Blue Star posted:
Just think, originally it was suppose to be a clown and an old man until Toriyamas old Editor said they looked too goofy.
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Mar 8, 2014 10:17
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Here's a better scenario for the Android saga: Goku dies killing Freeza, Gohan becomes the main character, the androids show up and they're about third- or fourth-form Freeza strong. (The Garlic Jr. filler saga tried to do this, and the lack of Goku saving is the day is the only good thing about it.) Now Gohan and Vegeta have to race to unlock the transformation that they know is possible but can't seem to obtain while fighting unskilled but stronger/faster opponents. Alternatively, Gero and Fat Clown remain the villains but are near impossible to beat due to their energy absorbing technology that renders ki attacks mostly worthless and puts them on par with the planet-destroying behemoths. Cell can still show up if the author feels like it. Granted, none of this could have happened had it been written by Akira "Make this poo poo up as I go along" Toriyama, but as long as I'm writing fanfiction it ought to be good fanfiction.
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Mar 8, 2014 10:23
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bowmore posted:Because if they were weaker than freiza and super Saiyans I'm sure that would work out great story wise. Yes, that's exactly what I meant: that it would've been better if they had just beaten the androids in a single episode and that was it, and definitely not that I wish Toriyama had set up a different sort of villain or anything. I get that Cell would be stronger because he's made from everyone's DNA or whatever. The energy-draining thing that No. 19 and 20 did was pretty neat. I get the feeling that they weren't stronger than Freeza or the Super Saiyans without draining people's energy. Its just weird to me that Dr. Gero takes two random teenagers, put them under the knife, then suddenly they're curbstomping Super Saiyans. Of course, then again, the idea that 17 and 18 are just a couple of random teenagers who were suddenly given this incredible power and are now on a joyride is pretty cool and interesting. Plus seeing Vegeta get slapped around after being such a dick for so long was pretty satisfying. So whatever, I guess. Like I said, it's just me being nerdy. I wasn't trying to make an objective case.
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Mar 8, 2014 10:42
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Blue Star posted:Yes, that's exactly what I meant: that it would've been better if they had just beaten the androids in a single episode and that was it, and definitely not that I wish Toriyama had set up a different sort of villain or anything.
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Mar 8, 2014 10:58
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Blue Star posted:Yes, that's exactly what I meant: that it would've been better if they had just beaten the androids in a single episode and that was it, and definitely not that I wish Toriyama had set up a different sort of villain or anything. Well, first Toriyama did set up a different bad guy with Cell, and second what kind of good storytelling would that be? Episode 40 was great, and I am of the opinion that TFS is only getting better with time. A lot of their jokes are really cleverly crafted compared to even the goofy stuff they were pulling in the Freeza saga (for instance, the part where they relied on Freeza ripping Nail's arm off over and over). Maybe their new style of humor/the Cell saga just isn't your cup of tea, but I can't help but feel any attempt to trash their current product is just some misguided cynicism. e: Also, I didn't really get the Toriyama dinosaur joke near the beginning. Was that a reference to Cell? facebook jihad fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Mar 8, 2014 |
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Mar 8, 2014 15:22
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crankdatbatman posted:Well, first Toriyama did set up a different bad guy with Cell, and second what kind of good storytelling would that be? It's a reference to Revenge of Cooler Abridged. Enjoyed the episode, but this was pretty much a transition episode between the villains. Also can't wait for Kami and Nail playing pool while Piccolo tries to fight.
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Mar 8, 2014 15:48
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Yeah this is my favorite thing about the Android saga so far. I wonder how they plan to address how loving serious and evil they are in Trunks' timeline, though. I mean, the show certainly did a poo poo job of it but TFS usually finds a way to tell a great joke in spaces like that. Trunks comes back and has learnt Saiyan insult fighting.
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Mar 8, 2014 16:36
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I've enjoyed most of the Android episodes a lot more when I've rewatched them. Same deal with the Ginyu segment of the Freeza episodes; they seemed to fall a bit flat when they were coming out but I liked them a lot more when I was able to watch them consecutively from start to finish. Come to think of it, it occurs to me that season one was 10 episodes and season two was 20. Does that mean season three is going to be 30 episodes long?  (It'll probably be twenty again) Weighing in on the Freeza vs Cell sagas, I think part of the issue was that there wasn't really as much going on in between the fights. I think there was a lot more going on in the Freeza saga compared to the Cell saga.
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Mar 8, 2014 16:42
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bowmore posted:Seems like an anti climax He's basically saying the Cell Saga should have ended like the Buu Saga if the Buu Saga ended after the fights with Pui Pui and Yakon. Speaking of which, Pui Pui is the man. He could probably beat Freeza. I don't know why it took so long for them to make him a playable character in something when they had poo poo characters like Freeza's generic henchmen be playable.
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Mar 8, 2014 16:54
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Metal Loaf posted:I've enjoyed most of the Android episodes a lot more when I've rewatched them. Same deal with the Ginyu segment of the Freeza episodes; they seemed to fall a bit flat when they were coming out but I liked them a lot more when I was able to watch them consecutively from start to finish. The fun thing about the Freeza saga is that it was kind of tiered off. You had Cui, then Dodoria and Zarbon, then the Ginyu force, and finally Freeza. Like, they were all villains and stronger than the heroes at the time, but they were knocked off one by one and it was kind of exciting to see the heroes work through them and how they did it. The Saiyan saga was kind of like that too, at least with the saibamen and Nappa before Vegeta. In the Cell saga and especially the Buu saga it started just being "good guys vs. really strong bad guy" and that was that. Maybe I was just weird but that was what attracted me so much to the show when I started watching, during the Saiyan and Freeza sagas.
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Mar 8, 2014 17:29
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I like Cell saga (well, mostly because of Cell) but it really makes me sad that DBZ didn't end of Frieza saga. Especially after I'm rewatching Vegeta's final moments there: how he actually breaks into tears and tells Goku that it was Frieza who made him the monster that he was and pleads Goku to not let Frieza do that to anyone else. If that was really it for Vegeta, that would've been hell of a character arc. Instead we got Vegeta who changed his mind as often as Bulma changed her hairstyle. One week he's sad and seeking redemption, then he's an rear end in a top hat again and wants to beat Goku. And yes, in retrospect, Frieza having been hyped as the most powerful creature in the universe doesn't make a lick of a sense as soon as Toriyama introduced androids. Hell, as soon as he introduced King Cold! By the end of DBZ, I believe even Krillin was stronger than Frieza's ultimate form.
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Mar 8, 2014 20:35
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crankdatbatman posted:The fun thing about the Freeza saga is that it was kind of tiered off. You had Cui, then Dodoria and Zarbon, then the Ginyu force, and finally Freeza. Like, they were all villains and stronger than the heroes at the time, but they were knocked off one by one and it was kind of exciting to see the heroes work through them and how they did it. The Saiyan saga was kind of like that too, at least with the saibamen and Nappa before Vegeta. In the Cell saga and especially the Buu saga it started just being "good guys vs. really strong bad guy" and that was that. I kind of liked how Gohan and Krillin are, by this point, much more powerful than the average Freeza soldier, but since they're still completely outclassed by his best men, they need to spend most of the time laying low and searching for the Dragon Balls, which eventually leads to them meeting Dende and Guru. Meanwhile Vegeta is taking out Cui, Dodoria and Zarbon on his own, and they only really team up once the Ginyu Force shows up. There's one part of the Cell saga that I think is sort of like that, and it's the bit that's just about to come up in the abridged series, where the androids are still the main threat and the ones the heroes are most concerned with defeating, but Cell is out there wandering about and absorbing whole towns at a time right under their noses, with Piccolo the only one aware of him and trying to chase him down on his own. PiedPiper posted:I like Cell saga (well, mostly because of Cell) but it really makes me sad that DBZ didn't end of Frieza saga. I remember years ago I had this really fanfictiony idea for what should have happened after the Freeza saga, but it's basically the same idea everyone else has probably had (Goku doesn't come back, Gohan needs to become a super saiyan to beat the androids/Cell/whoever, then Goku comes back and says, "I've been in space the last fiveyears and I've learned a whole bunch of new tricks, but there's this new guy called Majin Buu and he'll be here in a year or two; we'd better start training!"). Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Mar 8, 2014 |
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Mar 8, 2014 21:32
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Cell Saga would have been better if Toriyama had idea for Cell to be the villain from the beginning. Cell's a pretty awesome villain, and "a being made from the genetic materials of the strongest fighters in the universe" is kinda the next logical step for a villain after universal conqueror.
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Mar 8, 2014 21:41
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Nikkolasking posted:He's basically saying the Cell Saga should have ended like the Buu Saga if the Buu Saga ended after the fights with Pui Pui and Yakon. No I'm not, for crying out loud. All I said was that it felt weird to me that some guy could make androids in a bunker that were way stronger than Freeza or the Super Saiyans. It makes sense that Cell would be stronger because he's made from everyone's DNA and whatnot, so he's basically the combination of all of them and has all their powers. But with 17 and 18 it seems more...random, I guess. But it's a nerdy nitpick and I wasn't trying to make an objective case as for why the androids suck or anything. Like I said in my last post, the idea that No. 17 and 18 are just a couple of delinquents that were suddenly granted incredible power is pretty interesting and fun. crankdatbatman posted:Well, first Toriyama did set up a different bad guy with Cell, and second what kind of good storytelling would that be? Cell doesn't appear until later, though. When Trunks first appears and up until Piccolo absorbs Kami, the androids are pretty much THE badguy. I don't know what you mean by "what kind of storytelling would that be?" I think it was pretty obvious I was being sarcastic about the androids getting easily killed in one episode and the saga ending early. I don't feel like writing fanfiction but if the androids had actually turned out to be weaker the entire saga would've played out differently. Or maybe they still could've beaten the good guys, but in a different way. I liked the energy-absorbing thing that 19 and 20 had. Maybe i'm wrong but I get the sense that, without absorbing people's energy, they actually weren't stronger than Freeza or Super Saiyan whoever. But they surprised the good guys and almost beat them. Maybe in an "alternate Android Saga", No. 19 and 20 wouldn't exist and instead it would've been 17 and 18 who had that ability? But like I keep saying it's not that big a deal and I'm sorry I brought it up. One thing I really DO like about the Cell Saga is that Cell starts out as an underdog. I remember someone saying that he acts like Vegeta did in the Freeza Saga: he's weaker so he has to rely on cunning and sneaking around, but manages to keep outsmarting them all. He was probably the smartest villain in the entire series, Dragon Ball included.
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Mar 8, 2014 21:53
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Genocyber posted:Cell Saga would have been better if Toriyama had idea for Cell to be the villain from the beginning. Cell's a pretty awesome villain, and "a being made from the genetic materials of the strongest fighters in the universe" is kinda the next logical step for a villain after universal conqueror. Yeah, Cell being stronger than Freeza makes sense when you consider what he is, namely a genetic monster made from the cells of pretty much every fighter including Goku and Freeza. I think the Androids would have made more sense if they played all the fights like the 17 vs Piccolo one - They aren't necessarily stronger than the Super Saiyans, but they are more agile than them and have infinite stamina. Combine that with all the Super Saiyans being inexperienced (so they aren't used to the transformation and wear out quickly) and you have a situation where the Androids winning makes sense.
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Mar 8, 2014 22:05
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I don't think they will make the absorption scenes funny- they played Goku's transformation completely straight, so I think there is a bit of a precedent for going more serious at arc or plot defining moments.
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Mar 8, 2014 22:19
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I think the series should have ended when Goku won the 23rd Budokai. My issue with the Freeza Saga is Freeza himself. There is no excuse for how boring and repetitive his final fights are. Someone can kinda challenge him? TRANSFORMATION! Someone else can rival this form? ANOTHER TRANSFORMATION! Out of transformations? Well now I'll use another 5% of my power! Even Buu had more going for him since he had to go around absorbing people to get stronger. Same for Cell. If they wer elosing they had to use strategy to get ahead instead of plot bullshit. Also consider the absurd jump in power. Vegeta to Cui to Zarbon to Monster Zarbon to the Ginyu Force to Captain Ginyu are all reasonable jumps. Then Ginyu is the top of the chain - Freeza's strongest subordinate and he's at 120,000. Freeza meanwhile is at 120,000,000. That's right, Freeza is literally 1000 times stronger than the next in command. This results in all sorts of nonsense where Gohan increased more in power in five minutes than he did all through Namek and every other fight.
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Mar 8, 2014 22:21
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There's a canonical reason why 17/18 are as strong or stronger than Frieza: Gero built them with "fighting data" from when Frieza was on earth. He has at least 3 years of improving them from that point onwards. Think of it like his prototype "fighting data" idea that would be perfected with Cell. The real reason is that it's a fighting manga and making weaker villains does not work: Gero was weaker than the Saiyans and isn't remembered as nearly as big a threat. If we use POWER LEVEL tiers, it looks like: 17 18 SSJ Goku Frieza SSJ Vegeta 19 Gero Weakened Goku Piccolo is probably on par with 19. Zonekeeper posted:I think the Androids would have made more sense if they played all the fights like the 17 vs Piccolo one - They aren't necessarily stronger than the Super Saiyans, but they are more agile than them and have infinite stamina. Combine that with all the Super Saiyans being inexperienced (so they aren't used to the transformation and wear out quickly) and you have a situation where the Androids winning makes sense. In a way, this is sort of how it played out. 18 is about equal to Vegeta, but beats him due to wearing him down over time. She's stronger for sure, bit it's not Frieza stomping Piccolo difference of power. 17 even says in the manga that if they had all teamed up against her, she would have lost. That's different than Frieza, who made it clear that teaming up wasn't enough. Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Mar 8, 2014 |
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Mar 8, 2014 22:22
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19 and Gero are pretty much impossible to gauge accurately and I certainly would not put Vegeta below Frieza. Vegeta was stronger than SSJ Trunks who made mincemeat out of Frieza. Also even after absorbing some of Piccolo's energy, Piccolo curbstomped Gero/Android 20. I don't see any reason to say 19 was significantly stronger than Gero.
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Mar 8, 2014 22:27
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NikkolasKing posted:19 and Gero are pretty much impossible to gauge accurately and I certainly would not put Vegeta below Frieza. Vegeta was stronger than SSJ Trunks who made mincemeat out of Frieza. Trunks beat Mecha-Frieza, not technically Frieza. There's conflicting sources as to if he was stronger as a cyborg or not. However, there's one bit of evidence: Goku beats him AND Cold apparently fairly easily in the unseen timeline when Trunks does not come back. Could argue that Goku got way stronger in those few months on Yadrat, I guess. 19 and Gero were probably pretty close. I use the metric that he was able to hold back the team while 19 beat on Goku, but he ran away when faced with SSJ Vegeta.
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Mar 8, 2014 22:32
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Mister Roboto posted:Trunks beat Mecha-Frieza, not technically Frieza. There's conflicting sources as to if he was stronger as a cyborg or not. However, there's one bit of evidence: Goku beats him AND Cold apparently fairly easily in the unseen timeline when Trunks does not come back. Could argue that Goku got way stronger in those few months on Yadrat, I guess. Come on man, do you think Freeza would haul it to Earth if he wasn't confident that he was stronger than the Goku that beat his rear end and left him to die? And yes Goku got that strong. He went from getting punked by Raditz to punking Nappa in like 2 months (minus about 10 months of cardio).
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Mar 8, 2014 23:42
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