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Rudoku posted:Come on man, do you think Freeza would haul it to Earth if he wasn't confident that he was stronger than the Goku that beat his rear end and left him to die? And yes Goku got that strong. He went from getting punked by Raditz to punking Nappa in like 2 months (minus about 10 months of cardio). From Raditz to Nappa was under the training of King Kai, who was, at that point, the best trainer in the galaxy. Far cry from getting Instant Transmission training from Yadratians, who are specifically said to not be great fighters. A big part of Frieza's character is his pettiness. The entire reason he came to Earth WASN'T to fight Goku, it was to kill everyone in revenge. Cold COULD have nuked his pod en route but Frieza wanted to see Goku's face when he came back to a dead planet. Also, he had Cold with him, and while it isn't clear who is stronger (there's conflicting info) he was still a Freeza-level fighter and that's a challenge to Goku for sure. Getting revenge even if he wasn't guaranteed success (but was too arrogant to realize it) is totally in character. Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Mar 9, 2014 |
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Mar 8, 2014 23:58
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However, Trucks took down Freeza and Cold in moments, and then couldn't scratch Goku.
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Mar 9, 2014 00:19
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That's one of the issues with this series, you can never really be sure who's going how hard and when. Goku took his time killing Frieza after transforming but was that because Frieza could still hold his own or because Goku was trying to send a message without actually killing him? Trunks tried to get past Goku's one finger but how hard was he really trying? The only way the show ever indicates is when another character mentions the fact, either their opponent or a bystander.
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Mar 9, 2014 00:21
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Mister Roboto posted:The real reason is that it's a fighting manga and making weaker villains does not work: Gero was weaker than the Saiyans and isn't remembered as nearly as big a threat.
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Mar 9, 2014 00:25
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Soujiro was better than Shishio or Einishi in Rurouni Kenshin but he was defeated before any of them. Sensui also started off this way in Yu Yu Hakusho before the writer hosed everything up.
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Mar 9, 2014 00:58
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Mister Roboto posted:From Raditz to Nappa was under the training of King Kai, who was, at that point, the best trainer in the galaxy. Far cry from getting Instant Transmission training from Yadratians, who are specifically said to not be great fighters. Yeah but he also, you know, survived massive injuries from the Freiza fight so as soon as he was done nursing his wounds on Yadrat he was a million times stronger because Saiyan bullshit.
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Mar 9, 2014 01:02
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Mister Roboto posted:Also, he had Cold with him, and while it isn't clear who is stronger (there's conflicting info) he was still a Freeza-level fighter and that's a challenge to Goku for sure. Wasn't there some sort of info stating that Freeza and Cooler were mutants of some kind and thus stronger than other members of their race? Or am I making that up? (Or did the mutation also apply to Cold?)
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Mar 9, 2014 02:22
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Well Toriyama said that in the most recent interview about Cold and Freeza since Cooler isn't canon. Goku was much stronger than Freeza when they fought. The anime made them seem more equal but it wasn't the case at all in the manga. Goku wanted to break Freeza and make him feel powerless.
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Mar 9, 2014 02:28
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Esroc posted:Wasn't there some sort of info stating that Freeza and Cooler were mutants of some kind and thus stronger than other members of their race? Or am I making that up? (Or did the mutation also apply to Cold?) I remember the quote being that Cold and Freeza are both mutants, and not at all representative of their race.
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Mar 9, 2014 02:32
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Considering Cold never transformed, Freeza might as well be the sole mutant.
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Mar 9, 2014 02:39
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carry on then posted:That's one of the issues with this series, you can never really be sure who's going how hard and when. Goku took his time killing Frieza after transforming but was that because Frieza could still hold his own or because Goku was trying to send a message without actually killing him? As soon as Goku goes Super Saiyan he utterly outclasses Freeza easily. Every step of the battle Goku is completely in control, and this is after he has been beat to hell by Freeza before transforming. The fight doesn't end because Goku ekes out a victory remember, Goku literally becomes so bored that Freeza is such a weakling that he just gives up fighting him. Even without getting any training in at all, I could see a fully rested Goku just beating the gently caress out of Freeza and his father as soon as they touched down.
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Mar 9, 2014 03:41
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Yeah, but this series is just full of instances of someone not taking some initiative and using all their extreme power to end a fight immediately, they always hold back and toy with their opponent until they do something desperate like blow up a planet.
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Mar 9, 2014 04:21
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carry on then posted:Yeah, but this series is just full of instances of someone not taking some initiative and using all their extreme power to end a fight immediately, they always hold back and toy with their opponent until they do something desperate like blow up a planet.
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Mar 9, 2014 04:44
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carry on then posted:Yeah, but this series is just full of instances of someone not taking some initiative and using all their extreme power to end a fight immediately, they always hold back and toy with their opponent until they do something desperate like blow up a planet. Prime examples: Not using the Dragon Balls to stop the Androids before they came, Goku bowing out and telling Gohan to fight Cell, and then not killing Buu right away to let Trunks and Goten do it.
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Mar 9, 2014 04:47
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In the Cell example at least, Goku straight up knew he couldn't beat Cell.
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Mar 9, 2014 05:15
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I thought it was he knew he could but wanted Gohan to awaken his power. Cell exploding was unexpected.
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Mar 9, 2014 05:33
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Followed by the line "Oh hey, we never had to wish him back before!" Top quality
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Mar 9, 2014 05:33
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RBX posted:I thought it was he knew he could but wanted Gohan to awaken his power. Cell exploding was unexpected. No. It was made pretty clear by at least Korin that Goku could not beat Cell.
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Mar 9, 2014 06:05
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Knew he couldn't, but wanted to a) give Gohan an idea how Cell would fight, and b) oblige everyone who thought he was their best hope.
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Mar 9, 2014 06:21
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There's also the fact that Goku and Vegeta pretty much live for fighting so he wasn't exactly reluctant.
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Mar 9, 2014 07:30
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I like to think goku could have gone Super Saiyan 2 against cell but he knew that wasn't enough. So he figured he wouldn't try and discourage Gohan any further since he was already pretty reluctant as was.
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Mar 9, 2014 07:40
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RBX posted:I thought it was he knew he could but wanted Gohan to awaken his power. Cell exploding was unexpected. No, Goku knew he couldn't beat Cell. But he wasn't bothered by this because during the training with Gohan, he sensed Gohan's latent powers. Goku, being a fighting junky, could NOT pass up the chance to see his son surpass him. He also wanted to fight Cell just because he likes fighting, so he did. And he DID go for the kill shot with the Warp Kamehameha, which just demonstrated to him that his best wasn't enough. When Gohan goes full arrogant-Saiyan, that's when Goku starts to panic because the situation starts to go out of his predictions; he even says Cell might start getting desperate and doing something unexpected. Which he did. If you want an example of someone Goku could beat but wanted to see Gohan do it, that's Dabura. Stairmaster posted:I like to think goku could have gone Super Saiyan 2 against cell but he knew that wasn't enough. So he figured he wouldn't try and discourage Gohan any further since he was already pretty reluctant as was. No, probably not...Goku makes it clear he went to his limits against Cell. SSJ2 was a bit of a surprise to him to, in that when Gohan achieves it, he goes "I knew it was possible, I just knew it."
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Mar 9, 2014 10:11
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While we're on topic of Cell saga, I never really understood why everybody (justifiably) blames Vegeta for letting Cell transform but not Goku for giving Cell a goddamn senzu bean! I mean, I know it's supposed to show his good sportsmanship and his code of honour but being a main character does not automatically excuse you for doing stupid things. The only character who took it seriously and went for a clean and fast kill was Future Trunks.
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Mar 9, 2014 11:31
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I think Future Trunks is the most pragmatic and that's probably heavily influenced by having Bulma as a single mum and living under apocalypse type conditions.
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Mar 9, 2014 11:41
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PiedPiper posted:While we're on topic of Cell saga, I never really understood why everybody (justifiably) blames Vegeta for letting Cell transform but not Goku for giving Cell a goddamn senzu bean! I mean, I know it's supposed to show his good sportsmanship and his code of honour but being a main character does not automatically excuse you for doing stupid things. Actually, a few characters chew Goku out, like Piccolo, and Goku admits he made a mistake at trying to draw out Gohan's rage. Just as Goku's about to take another bean and dive into the fight again, though, that's when 16 dies, revealing said rage after all. Also, you could argue that Goku's death was his punishment.
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Mar 9, 2014 12:02
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Mister Roboto posted:Actually, a few characters chew Goku out, like Piccolo, and Goku admits he made a mistake at trying to draw out Gohan's rage. Yeah, I remember them criticizing Goku for that, what I meant (and what I should probably have worded better) is that fandom usually focuses on Vegeta's blunders and often forgets that Goku's not blameless, either. And he totally could have avoided being exploded, too! Guess his transmission isn't that instant, huh.
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Mar 9, 2014 12:05
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Watching Kai for the first time, subbed, and after having not watched since I was 12 or so Cell is like the perfect sumg rear end in a top hat villan. I love him. Vegeta comes across even more as a dick in the japanese version. Actually everybody seems to have more of a personality though I might need to rewatch the dub to check.
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Mar 9, 2014 12:08
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PiedPiper posted:Yeah, I remember them criticizing Goku for that, what I meant (and what I should probably have worded better) is that fandom usually focuses on Vegeta's blunders and often forgets that Goku's not blameless, either. It's actually NOT "instant." If anything, that translation is wrong and makes it more overpowered than it is. Goku's teleportation only works if he can focus on the Ki of someone. Meaning he can't just warp to, say, another part of the planet randomly. He needs to have a person to focus on. He also can't teleport if he can't focus, i.e. with Buu's attack about to blow up the Earth. Most fans and filler forget about this because it's easier to write Star Trek teleportation anywhere.
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Mar 9, 2014 12:11
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Mister Roboto posted:It's actually NOT "instant." If anything, that translation is wrong and makes it more overpowered than it is. Yeah, I guess so. My jab was focused on how anime elongated that scene, basically showing Goku say 'there's no time' while there was actually plenty of time. I don't know how it went in manga, but judging by lightning-fast one-panel SSJ transformation in Frieza saga, I bet it happened fairly quick. It's the same problem as 'five minutes till Namek explodes', more or less.
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Mar 9, 2014 13:32
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The "Goku is a fighting junky" topic has made me want to ask you all a question I've always puzzled over. You might remember Kid Goku fought a character named Spike the Devilman. He had an attack that, if you possessed even an inkling of evil or impurity in you, would cause your heart to explode. Kid Goku survived but would Adult Goku? Am I alone in thinking Adult Goku's heart would pop like a potato in a hot fireplace? He is incredibly selfish, as seen when he lets the guy go who just helped murder all his friends (and tried to murder everyone else on Earth) solely for the desire to fight him again. Vegeta could have come back to murder everyone he "loved" but nope, Goku was far more concerned with his own addition to violence. And let's not even get into the whole throwing his son t a genocidal and unstoppable monster.
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Mar 9, 2014 14:02
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NikkolasKing posted:The "Goku is a fighting junky" topic has made me want to ask you all a question I've always puzzled over. Goku's selfish moments have always come across as his childish disposition shining through, at least to me. Goku didn't think about how Vegeta might come back because he's a dumb manchild, and dumb manchildren don't think about the long-term consequences of their actions.
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Mar 9, 2014 14:17
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RBX posted:I thought it was he knew he could but wanted Gohan to awaken his power. Cell exploding was unexpected. You've got it confused with SS3 Goku vs Buu. Goku knew he could probably beat Buu at that point but held back cause he wanted his kids to be able to save the earth.
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Mar 9, 2014 15:03
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Namtab posted:You've got it confused with SS3 Goku vs Buu. Goku knew he could probably beat Buu at that point but held back cause he wanted his kids to be able to save the earth. That's something that I don't get. Vegeta is already dead after failing to kill Buu by unleashing everything that he had and Gohan got poo poo-stomped. Why would Goku think that the kids would be able to take Buu? I mean, maybe let them start on something smaller there.
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Mar 9, 2014 15:12
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In reply to the fan base giving Vegeta a lot of poo poo for allowing Cell to achieve his perfect form, I always made the argument that Goku would probably have done the same thing if he were in Vegeta's shoes. It was basically exactly what happened in the Freeza fight, with the exception that Goku could still take on 100% Freeza. It would fit in his "addicted to fighting" personality, although maybe he wouldn't since he cares more about others than Vegeta did at the time.
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Mar 9, 2014 15:24
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crankdatbatman posted:In reply to the fan base giving Vegeta a lot of poo poo for allowing Cell to achieve his perfect form, I always made the argument that Goku would probably have done the same thing if he were in Vegeta's shoes. It was basically exactly what happened in the Freeza fight, with the exception that Goku could still take on 100% Freeza. It would fit in his "addicted to fighting" personality, although maybe he wouldn't since he cares more about others than Vegeta did at the time. Considering he gave Perfect Cell a senzu bean after knowing full well his horrible capacity for destruction and their desperate situation, yeah, Goku would totally loving let Cell transform. Hell, he'd probably help look for 18.
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Mar 9, 2014 15:52
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Goku is one of the dumbest adults I have ever seen in fiction and it's because he never needed to actually grow up given he's a super strong man and might have brain damage.
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Mar 9, 2014 15:55
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Orgia Carnaval posted:Goku is one of the dumbest adults I have ever seen in fiction and it's because he never needed to actually grow up given he's a super strong man and might have brain damage. I'm Goku. I'm insane. From Earth.
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Mar 9, 2014 15:57
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Considering he gave Perfect Cell a senzu bean after knowing full well his horrible capacity for destruction and their desperate situation, yeah, Goku would totally loving let Cell transform. Hell, he'd probably help look for 18.
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Mar 9, 2014 16:20
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Orgia Carnaval posted:Goku is one of the dumbest adults I have ever seen in fiction and it's because he never needed to actually grow up given he's a super strong man and might have brain damage. Which is why I hate the fact he's had such a negative influence on shounen. So many Goku clones like Naruto or Luffy or Natsu, when we really should be getting more Kenshin's or, hell, even Yusuke's.
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Mar 9, 2014 16:40
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NikkolasKing posted:Which is why I hate the fact he's had such a negative influence on shounen. So many Goku clones like Naruto or Luffy or Natsu, when we really should be getting more Kenshin's or, hell, even Yusuke's. Oga from Beelzebub carried that torch.
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Mar 9, 2014 16:59
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