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NikkolasKing posted:Which is why I hate the fact he's had such a negative influence on shounen. So many Goku clones like Naruto or Luffy or Natsu, when we really should be getting more Kenshin's or, hell, even Yusuke's. There is the occasional twist on the Goku archetype, like Gon from Hunter x Hunter. Pretty similar at first but different in a few key areas and develops in a much MUCH different way.
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Mar 9, 2014 17:43
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NikkolasKing posted:Which is why I hate the fact he's had such a negative influence on shounen. So many Goku clones like Naruto or Luffy or Natsu, when we really should be getting more Kenshin's or, hell, even Yusuke's. Personally I wouldn't want Luffy any other way. He must be a blast to write; infinitely childish, infinitely stupid.
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Mar 9, 2014 20:24
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Personally I wouldn't want Luffy any other way. He must be a blast to write; infinitely childish, infinitely stupid. He also doesn't do the very Goku thing of giving enemies a second chance to sucker punch him mid-fight.
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Mar 9, 2014 21:42
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Well, Dragonball as a whole contributed to crystallizing this core of shonen: transformations, scream to power up, childlike protagonist, jealous antihero who was once stronger but now is second-best, etc. It baffles me that even now when we look at some of the newer Shonen Jump series that get cancelled within a year, the lion's share of them is quasi-DBZ rehash. Or maybe I'm just imagining it.
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Mar 9, 2014 22:06
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The thing with shonen stories is that they're built around three archetypes: Effort, Victory and Friendship. Each of the three archetypes used to be given some form of equal weight in shonen stories and heroes fell into one or the other. They're the three pillars of Jump (and defined as such. Japanese fans are all about Jump being about Friendship, Victory and Effort) but Dragonball and a few other series really started to skew them heavily towards either Friendship or Victory with Effort being primarily kept for sports stories. (And sometimes not even then.) It's unfortunate because a lot of the best characters tend to fall into Effort archetypes but because certain series got so popular that sort of thing ended up being devalued and a lot of time now Effort-type characters are minor supporting characters who rarely get to do anything. One Punch Man is kind of a parody of this trend actually. One Punch Man himself is 'technically' an Effort-Type character but he functions exactly like an over-the-top parody of Victory-type characters while the true Effort-type character struggles along constantly. (In a related note, One Punch Man itself is basically following in the shoes of Luckyman, a popular parody manga which lampooned Jump tropes, and rumored to be written by the same person responsible for Death Note and Bakuman.) It's kind of been a recognized trend for a long while but, y'know, Victory-type characters sell so why bother doing anything else? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Mar 9, 2014 |
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Mar 9, 2014 22:14
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Rigged Death Trap posted:He also doesn't do the very Goku thing of giving enemies a second chance to sucker punch him mid-fight. Luffy's odd because most of the time it's more like he's just toying with the enemy and could beat them to a pulp immediately if he really wanted to. There's a reason a vast majority of the time he's out of commission for a while whenever the fights start in each of the arcs.
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Mar 9, 2014 22:31
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crankdatbatman posted:It was basically exactly what happened in the Freeza fight, with the exception that Goku could still take on 100% Freeza. Yeah except Freeza didn't have to murder, or atleast appear to, anyone to obtain 100% power.
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Mar 9, 2014 22:41
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Testekill posted:That's something that I don't get. Vegeta is already dead after failing to kill Buu by unleashing everything that he had and Gohan got poo poo-stomped. Why would Goku think that the kids would be able to take Buu? I mean, maybe let them start on something smaller there. Goku knew how powerful fusion makes you, and did the math and worked out the kids' power was enough to beat Super Buu. Too bad he didn't factor in the immaturity and arrogance.
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Mar 10, 2014 02:37
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Momomo posted:Luffy's odd because most of the time it's more like he's just toying with the enemy and could beat them to a pulp immediately if he really wanted to. There's a reason a vast majority of the time he's out of commission for a while whenever the fights start in each of the arcs. Not really? All the main villains of the arcs tend to be tough fights and the weaker enemies are usually taken care of by the rest of the crew. It's only in the New World stuff that some of the villains have been weaker.
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Mar 10, 2014 02:40
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Mister Roboto posted:Goku knew how powerful fusion makes you, and did the math and worked out the kids' power was enough to beat Super Buu. Goku doing the math on something is pretty weird to say, but when the subject is fighting it makes sense.
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Mar 10, 2014 02:42
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Genocyber posted:Not really? All the main villains of the arcs tend to be tough fights and the weaker enemies are usually taken care of by the rest of the crew. It's only in the New World stuff that some of the villains have been weaker. Nah luffy outclassed kreig and arlong pretty hard the former was only a threat at all because the environment was unfavorable to luffy.
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Mar 10, 2014 03:02
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I have no idea why you'd say Arlong was outclassed by Luffy, considering he was getting the poo poo kicked out of him the entire time until Arlong taunted him just a bit too far. A big distinction between Luffy and Goku is that Goku lives to fight dudes. He loves punching dudes and getting punched by dudes and when he dies he goes to a heaven where that's what you do all day. Luffy doesn't care about fighting, he cares about being a pirate and fighting is just a part of that.
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Mar 10, 2014 03:06
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Elfgames posted:Nah luffy outclassed kreig and arlong pretty hard the former was only a threat at all because the environment was unfavorable to luffy. Doesn't change the fact that Luffy did have to struggle, at least in the Arlong fight. Arlong may have been weaker, but not enough that Luffy greatly outstripped him.
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Mar 10, 2014 03:07
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Personally I wouldn't want Luffy any other way. He must be a blast to write; infinitely childish, infinitely stupid. Natsu is a blithering idiot and that's his entire character, other than I am punching. Naruto's was being anti-authority as a means to become the authority although he didn't really get annoying until he became the genius child of prophecy somehow in the middle. So I guess I'm saying Luffy "got" Goku while the other ones just got "total idiot, ok, go with that".
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Mar 10, 2014 03:24
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Genocyber posted:Not really? All the main villains of the arcs tend to be tough fights and the weaker enemies are usually taken care of by the rest of the crew. It's only in the New World stuff that some of the villains have been weaker. Not really, there have been guys like Lucci and stuff that Luffy has had trouble with, but for the most part it seemed like as long as Luffy could get his hands on the guy, he was in complete control of like every fight. With Arlong it felt more like he was just kin of letting the guy do his dumb teeth shenanigans before finally getting serious.
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Mar 10, 2014 04:01
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Mar 10, 2014 04:55
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Is that supposed to look dirty?
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Mar 10, 2014 05:03
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Momomo posted:Not really, there have been guys like Lucci and stuff that Luffy has had trouble with, but for the most part it seemed like as long as Luffy could get his hands on the guy, he was in complete control of like every fight. I'd say that's true of just about everybody except Crocodile. He got soundly defeated twice before finally managing to take Croc down.
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Mar 10, 2014 05:20
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What the gently caress are you guys talking about? Who is Luffy?
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Mar 10, 2014 05:22
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bowmore posted:What the gently caress are you guys talking about? Who is Luffy? One Piece the DBZ of the current era.
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Mar 10, 2014 05:23
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Let's talk about Yusuke instead. He's cooler.
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Mar 10, 2014 05:28
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No lets talk about Kuwabara. Hes the coolest.
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Mar 10, 2014 05:35
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Kuwabara had a chance to go fight in the greatest of anime fighting tournaments and said no because getting into college was more important. He is the wisest shonen character.
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Mar 10, 2014 05:37
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the only two names i recognize in this thread are goku and vegeta sorry guys
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Mar 10, 2014 05:44
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Does everyone know there were two Dragonball Z / One Piece crossovers? There was a 2006 manga called Cross Epoch which mixed the two into one: http://mpypow.blogspot.ca/2010/08/one-piece-cross-epoch.html http://www.mangahere.com/manga/cross_epoch/v01/c001/    And there was a 2011 Shonen Jump special that had the two universes meet. Technically this is split up into different parts, you may have to do some digging on youtube to find it in one piece. http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dream_9_Toriko_%26_One_Piece_%26_Dragon_Ball_Z_Super_Collaboration_Special    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWsT6F-8s_0 Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 05:45
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I honestly don't mind Natsu because Fairy Tail is mostly a gag/fanservice series. It is so absolutely clad in its cliches that I find it endearing. It has no delusions of grandeur, which is more than I can say for Naruto. But yes, Yusuke is the best shounen hero ever. Unless we count Vash, since Trigun was shounen originally. He is the well-done idealistic hero that people like Kira Yamato and Naruto wish they could be.
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Mar 10, 2014 06:41
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Crossovers are pretty cool. (this isn't really from anything)
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Mar 10, 2014 06:45
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bowmore posted:What the gently caress are you guys talking about? Who is Luffy? It's you. You're the strawhat captain.
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Mar 10, 2014 07:31
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NikkolasKing posted:I honestly don't mind Natsu because Fairy Tail is mostly a gag/fanservice series. It is so absolutely clad in its cliches that I find it endearing. It has no delusions of grandeur, which is more than I can say for Naruto. I liked Yusuke a lot until the last arc of the anime where it was revealed he was a demon and he turned from a street tough kid to just another fantasy race. I haven't read the manga so I don't know if it differs, but I mostly just pretend everything after about mid Chapter Black just didn't happen.
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Mar 10, 2014 09:04
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This might be the greatest gif I have ever seen. 
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Mar 10, 2014 12:07
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Momomo posted:I liked Yusuke a lot until the last arc of the anime where it was revealed he was a demon and he turned from a street tough kid to just another fantasy race. I haven't read the manga so I don't know if it differs, but I mostly just pretend everything after about mid Chapter Black just didn't happen. That's too bad you feel that way. It wasn't Yusukes strongest arc but Hiei and Kurama had pretty drat good character arcs during the Three Kings Saga. Also Mukuro and Yomi were fantastic in their own right. I loved everything about the Chapter Black except the fight with Sensui and everything following it. We get a really long boring fight, followed by everyone being made irrelevant except Yusuke because Sacred Energy beats everything no matter what you do. The Three Kings Saga was pretty good for the most part I felt and the ending to it was really good and heartfelt.
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Mar 10, 2014 14:33
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Three kings saga has a drat good tournament too.
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Mar 10, 2014 14:50
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I like my analogy of Chapter Black starting off as Dragon Ball and ending as Dragon Ball Z. Seriously, just compare Yusuke's and "Minoru's" fights(he was the personality of Sensui who had 95% of Sensui's screentime. Yet nobody remembers him...) to the final showdown with Shinobu. One is fisticuffs and the other is DBZ style blurred punches and flying though the air and gianT explosions because POWER. It doesn't help that Shinobu completely ruins the dynamic between him and Yusuke. He started off as weaker than Yusuke but compensated for this with superior experience. Strength vs. Skill basically. He was a martial artist to Yusuke's brawler. His techniques were all "leg-based" versions of Yusuke's Spirit Gun/Shotgun and in general he uses his legs more while Yusuke uses his fists more. Then comes SHinobu who is just OMG Power. Also dying. Don't think I didn't roll my eyes at that. It was basically Younger Toguro all over again with the "I wanted it this day so feel sad for me!" Only much less effective in every way. This is how everyone should remember Sensui. Also am I alone in thinking Robert McCollum (Sensui's dub VA) would have been perfect as Freeza in Kai? I liked Ayres but you just don't hear Rob enough. He's Jellal in FT but Jellal isn't evil long enough to get the full effect. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 15:13
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I think the voice actors for Kurama, Hiei, Yomi and Sensui are fantastic and its a drat shame they aren't used more. Watching that video of YYH reminded me of the odd choices Funimation made for that dub when it came to the voices and the accents they chose. I don't think I ever understood a word Jin said, but drat if it wasn't charming in its own weird way.
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Mar 10, 2014 15:27
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Don't forget Younger Toguro. Can you believe he's also Cell? It stunned me at first. Dameon Clarke is the man and his Scar in FMA is better than any other. (IMO) But yeah, Funi's dubbing practices have changed a lot in a decade. Nowadays, giving a character an unnecessary accent is basically like saying your dub is poo poo. People like to say dubbing standards have improved since 2000, and I guess they have, but I still enjoy dubs from early 2000 or even the 90s. Stuff like Magic Knights Rayeath and what I've heard of Gundam Wing are all pretty nice. Plus some of the best dubs ever are from the start of the 00s, like FMA or Inuyasha. I'm pretty sure Funi also doesn't completely rewrite the script like they used to. A big reason YYH's dub is so good is precisely because it was so heavily localized. And to think, just a short time earlier they were doing this. Thank God Dragon Ball was closer to Yu Yu Hakusho in the quality of the rewrites department than it was to DBZ. http://videobam.com/RuGXP NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 15:34
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Younger Toguro was Scar/Cell? That seems so obvious if I thought about it, but I just never made the connection.
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Mar 10, 2014 15:40
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Prison Warden posted:As soon as Goku goes Super Saiyan he utterly outclasses Freeza easily. Every step of the battle Goku is completely in control, and this is after he has been beat to hell by Freeza before transforming. The fight doesn't end because Goku ekes out a victory remember, Goku literally becomes so bored that Freeza is such a weakling that he just gives up fighting him. Even without getting any training in at all, I could see a fully rested Goku just beating the gently caress out of Freeza and his father as soon as they touched down. Pretty much this. Especially in the original time line (where Goku died of the heart attack) he does defeat Cold and Freezer.
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Mar 10, 2014 17:17
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Vintimus Prime posted:Pretty much this. Especially in the original time line (where Goku died of the heart attack) he does defeat Cold and Freezer. Yeah he probably transformed instant transmissioned in and one shot them both.
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Mar 10, 2014 17:24
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Testekill posted:That's something that I don't get. Vegeta is already dead after failing to kill Buu by unleashing everything that he had and Gohan got poo poo-stomped. Why would Goku think that the kids would be able to take Buu? I mean, maybe let them start on something smaller there. I actually don't mind this too much. Goku fought fat boo, had an idea of how strong the kids were, and the power boost that fusion would give them. He probably had an idea how how strong Gotenks would end up being, and they still had the room of spirit and time to use for training. If Goku had an idea of Buu transforming and becoming stronger happening, he would have probably done it himself. Remember when Goku goes to the lookout and Krillin says okay, go beat Buu, we know you can do it. Goku outright says, if Vegeta couldn't beat him, I can't either. He had no intention of using SSJ3 at that point. When he brings up fusion Piccolo figures out that's how Goku would have fought Buu, by fusing with either Vegeta or Gohan. That's how the kids even get brought into the discussion for fighting Buu. There is also the point he made of, well if I kill Buu now, I'm still dead and will be back in the spirit world in less than 24 hours, Vegeta is gone, Gohan is gone, so these kids like it or not would be the future hope of the world. Let the living defend the living world. For someone who is always craving a good fight, it's an interesting take. Something changed with him during those 7 years.
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Mar 10, 2014 17:39
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NikkolasKing posted:And to think, just a short time earlier they were doing this. The fact that his eyes go all  : really makes the clipAnd yeah I really miss the silly accents from stuff like the YYH dub. They may "unnecessary" but they're a lot of fun and a perfect fit for a silly kids show like it. Only recent dub I can think of that feels the same is the One Piece dub. also this is now 90s shounen thread 
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