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Anonymous Robot posted:Let me ask a question about exposition, but I'll do it as specifically as I can, to avoid a generalized answer that might not fit my situation. So what actually happens in your story.
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Mar 14, 2014 04:11
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Anonymous Robot posted:It's kind of a mystery plot. Maybe it's just me, but when I read stories in the mystery genre, I kinda expect that the mystery will be resolved by the end. "Who the hell knows what happened" does not seem like it will be satisfying.
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Mar 14, 2014 04:30
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sebmojo posted:You are everything that is wrong with everything, commie. ok, MOM
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Mar 14, 2014 04:37
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sebmojo posted:So what actually happens in your story. An FBI investigator, following leads in the 1930s/1940s Mad Bomber case, heads to a small town in upstate New York. However, the town is almost entirely empty, except for some cult/pod people-esque Consolidated Edison employees. The town's miners have gone on strike, fortifying themselves in the mine and coming out at night to cause havoc. The investigator looks into the Con Ed hydroelectric plant, which is next to an unusually popular movie theater, but finds nothing out of sorts except for the fact that the town probably doesn't need its own power plant. He confronts the town's remaining two non-company inhabitants, who (in varying ways) relate how the company men all moved from the plant in Hellgate, NY, proceeded to buy out the businesses, elect themselves sheriff, mayor, etc, until the only work left was in the copper mine. That night, the investigator sees the ConEd men leading a battalion through the streets that is covered in lights: truck headlights, electric lanterns, spotlights and Christmas tree lights. They're heavily armed as well, and advancing on the mine. (A good deal of light imagery precedes this.) The miners are around too, though they have taken on a different, amorphous form that cannot be seen. They swallow up some of the ConEd men, but when powerful light sources are fixed on them, they return to their original state, men in heavy work clothes with bandanas wrapped around their heads like blinders. The investigator cannot leave the men, for fear of being killed, and they head to the mine. At the mine, the area experiences a power flux, which causes all of the lights, including the powerful lights fixed on the mine (which exudes a seeping darkness that cannot be penetrated), to fluctuate. The ConEd men celebrate this, seeing it as a sign of their own success- they will be swallowed up by their enemies, but they were only buying time for something to take place. The investigator is swallowed as well, and finds himself suspended in a globe of black liquid, somewhere. He is eventually expelled, but none of the ConEd men remain. Groping in the darkness and fearful of what he's seen, he heads back to the theater, its great spotlights being the only point of reference he has. He enters the theater to find that the seating has been gutted, and some heavy machinery has been working there, but has been quickly moved out. There are marks all over the floor from moved equipment, and some empty crates revealing various locations across the country (sites of large telecom and defense industries) remain. The ConEd men who were left behind have poisoned themselves. He goes to the phone (he is told earlier that the unioners cut the phone lines, but he is in too fractured a mindframe to remember) and tries to call headquarters to call for an investigation of the companies on the crates, but the phone is functioning in a strange way- he can hear his voice echoing in it, and can hear a multitude of other voices as well, as if he's calling into a large space. He keeps talking, unable to inhibit himself. Significant themes inspiring me include the shift from modernism to postmodernism in WWII, the labor struggle of the early 20th century, and the Mad Bomber case. Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Maybe it's just me, but when I read stories in the mystery genre, I kinda expect that the mystery will be resolved by the end. "Who the hell knows what happened" does not seem like it will be satisfying. I'm concerned about this, but I'm just going to finish it and see what happens. It's not really the kind of story that stands to benefit from having a clean resolution, I feel like.
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Mar 14, 2014 04:52
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Maybe it's just me, but when I read stories in the mystery genre, I kinda expect that the mystery will be resolved by the end. "Who the hell knows what happened" does not seem like it will be satisfying. The Maltese Falcon is actually pretty lovely for exactly this reason. Same with A Study in Scarlet. They both end with "what the gently caress just happened?" as a solution. In Falcon, Sam Spade suddenly fucks over absolutely everyone and walks away. In Scarlet, Holmes pulls the solution to the case out of his rear end and then you get to read a short story explaining what the gently caress the entire preceding story was about. And those are both stories where the resolution happens in the text!
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Mar 14, 2014 05:12
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Does anyone have a favorite portrayal of Lucifer. Medium doesn't matter. And I have the comics in my Kindle already so I'm going to look over those.
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Mar 14, 2014 05:23
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:Does anyone have a favorite portrayal of Lucifer. Medium doesn't matter. And I have the comics in my Kindle already so I'm going to look over those.
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Mar 14, 2014 05:48
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:Does anyone have a favorite portrayal of Lucifer. Medium doesn't matter. And I have the comics in my Kindle already so I'm going to look over those. Milton's is always a good choice, have to give props to someone that can make Lucifer sympathetic. The Mysterious Stranger is also great, and Joe Hill's Horns is an interesting take on it too.
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Mar 14, 2014 05:54
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Soulcleaver posted:The comics are indeed well done but anyone who answers with anything but Dante's Inferno is a scrub. Well that's one perspective but I'm gonna go with 'The Bible'.
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Mar 14, 2014 07:13
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Anonymous Robot posted:*snip* I think the key is whether the exposition will immerse the reader or not. Exposition handled appropriately draws the reader in and manipulates them into feeling what the characters are feeling. Exposition handled poorly feels like reading an instruction manual. How to accomplish the former and not the latter isn't exactly clear so I would google search how to show not tell and read up everything you can on it then go back through your story once you've fleshed out the plot. CB_Tube_Knight posted:Does anyone have a favorite portrayal of Lucifer. Medium doesn't matter. And I have the comics in my Kindle already so I'm going to look over those. Depends on what you're looking for, I've always enjoyed portrayals of Lucifer as a good guy. The witches of eastwick seemed like an apt portrayal. I could never seem to understand why he was supposed to be the bad guy in that. Basically the devil gives a bunch of women unimaginable powers and etc and only asks they not talk about him behind his back. They then betray him and curse him to death and somehow I'm supposed to cheer their victory over him? The prophecy is another good portrayal. The devil here is filled with vitriol and hatred but for all his bluster he's actually working to help humanity and heaven. The twilight zone episodes with satan were amongst my favorites. I duno perhaps not the best representations but I find that most people can't decide whether the devil is really evil or just misunderstood and getting the poo poo end of the stick. He's like the moral equivalent of the dog you blame your farts on.
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Mar 14, 2014 07:15
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elfdude posted:I think the key is whether the exposition will immerse the reader or not. Exposition handled appropriately draws the reader in and manipulates them into feeling what the characters are feeling. Exposition handled poorly feels like reading an instruction manual. How to accomplish the former and not the latter isn't exactly clear so I would Google search how to show not tell and read up everything you can on it then go back through your story once you've fleshed out the plot. Lucifer in my writing is at a point now where he's more or less come to terms with the fact that he was kicked out and Heaven and Hell typically don't fight outright at all. Basically imagine the US and Russia and how they never really do much besides talk poo poo. I don't mean for him to be a bad guy, he's meant to be the main character's father. But I am trying to sort through the fiction about him and find what really works and what doesn't. I have never really felt like I was writing him with the right characterization and I am going to have to take his parts and edit the Hell out of them. Fortunately he's hardly around.
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Mar 14, 2014 07:31
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If he's lost his attachment to fighting his exile then what's his new motivation? I think if you explore his background you'll have a more solid idea of what type of lucifer you want to write. A legacy like a child could be a catalyst for such a change in personality or alternatively he may not have changed at all and never wanted to fight anything. I mean, as far as imagery goes the fiction would be helpful. Here's a good quote from the Witches of Eastwick, "What do I want? Christ, what does every man want? A little affection. A little trust. Goddamnit, everything I did, I did for you."
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Mar 14, 2014 07:45
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Full Fathoms Five posted:Milton's is always a good choice, have to give props to someone that can make Lucifer sympathetic. The Mysterious Stranger is also great, and Joe Hill's Horns is an interesting take on it too. Yeah gonna second Paradise Lost. Milton is kickass. And while it's not really about Lucifer, I liked the Terry Pratchett/Neil Gaiman cross over Good Omens. Crowley is pretty amusing and it is thematically similar to some of the other Lucifer stuff out there. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Mar 14, 2014 |
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Mar 14, 2014 07:53
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:Does anyone have a favorite portrayal of Lucifer. Medium doesn't matter. And I have the comics in my Kindle already so I'm going to look over those. Just to add some variety to the classics listed, Mads Mikkelsen's titular character in the show "Hannibal." He has admitted to playing the role as Satan, not as a human at all, and I think it shows. He exists on our plane because humanity and our complexities amuse him as something to toy with, not that he can't genuinely care about people, but that his sense of it is completely alien and does not preclude loving us over if the occasion arises. Crisco Kid fucked around with this message at 08:48 on Mar 14, 2014 |
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Mar 14, 2014 08:45
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Anonymous Robot posted:however, and both he and the reader will end the story not actually knowing exactly what had gone on. (Whether that will detract from enjoying the story or not is a separate issue.) Actually, mystery readers will not like this. The mystery must be solvable; you're essentially playing a game with the reader, where they try to solve your mystery before you reveal your answers. The reveal brings closure. No reveal and they will feel cheated (because hey, their attempts didn't matter!). quote:Does anyone have a favorite portrayal of Lucifer. Medium doesn't matter. And I have the comics in my Kindle already so I'm going to look over those. Just the comic. One of my all-time favorites.
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Mar 14, 2014 10:31
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:Does anyone have a favorite portrayal of Lucifer. Medium doesn't matter. And I have the comics in my Kindle already so I'm going to look over those. The way Ray Wise plays him in the TV show Reaper is fantastic. He acts as mostly a father figure who genuinely wants the main character to be successful and happy, but also does some fantastic dick moves and his mannerisms are incredible.
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Mar 14, 2014 13:30
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John Glover played a great Satan on Brimstone. I remember fondly his speech about how Mother Nature creates plagues and senselessly kills millions of people, yet everyone hates him.
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Mar 14, 2014 13:36
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Chairchucker posted:Well that's one perspective but I'm gonna go with 'The Bible'. Actually dude's barely in that one.
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Mar 14, 2014 13:50
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Opposing Farce posted:Actually dude's barely in that one. It's not so much about time on stage as what he does with his time there.
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Mar 14, 2014 13:58
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The Master and Margarita sometimes relies a little too heavily on the reader knowing about the social politics of the 1920s Moscow art scene, but the depiction of Satan is absolutely top-notch.
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Mar 14, 2014 14:03
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I think I might try stealing some stuff from old me back when I was brash and didn't realize how much I had to learn. I wrote a bit of Lucifer back then and there were some interesting ideas that need a touch of maturity added to them. These quotes in particular seems like they could still function. quote:“I wasn’t there; in fact there never was a snake. He could have given them infinite trees in infinite gardens and they would have eaten from the one he told them not to. It shows more about Him that He'd tempt them in such a way than it does about them for eating it,” his tone never went above calm and he explained things so in such a matter-of-a-fact manner... I used to have another quote, but I can't find it. I might never have used it in a story at all. I remember it well enough to form an idea from it. I'm also looking at using this little Koran passage for inspiration, in particular this: God: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" Devil: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." Anonymous Robot posted:Let me ask a question about exposition, but I'll do it as specifically as I can, to avoid a generalized answer that might not fit my situation. CB_Tube_Knight fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Mar 14, 2014 |
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Mar 14, 2014 18:22
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:The Master and Margarita sometimes relies a little too heavily on the reader knowing about the social politics of the 1920s Moscow art scene, but the depiction of Satan is absolutely top-notch. Oh duh. I should have thought of that.
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Mar 15, 2014 02:56
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Yeah, in particular, Master and Margarita's characterization of Satan's cohorts is really well done. Like, they exist on this almost Looney-Tunes logic, but the rest of us don't, and their fanciful tricks have disastrous repercussions for us.
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Mar 15, 2014 03:23
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Anonymous Robot posted:Yeah, in particular, Master and Margarita's characterization of Satan's cohorts is really well done. Like, they exist on this almost Looney-Tunes logic, but the rest of us don't, and their fanciful tricks have disastrous repercussions for us. That's kind of interesting sounding. I read up on this book and I'm kind of wanting to pick it up for Kindle.
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Mar 15, 2014 04:21
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:That's kind of interesting sounding. I read up on this book and I'm kind of wanting to pick it up for Kindle. It's a book everyone who has any interest in writing well should read for the limpid beauty of the pontius pilate scenes if nothing else.
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Mar 15, 2014 06:43
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sebmojo posted:It's a book everyone who has any interest in writing well should read for the limpid beauty of the pontius pilate scenes if nothing else. Russian literature in my experience is pretty interesting and almost modern seeming in how it's composed. I don't know why it's not in the classroom more.
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Mar 15, 2014 06:45
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Because it's Russian. The last time Russian literature was allowed in America, Joseph McCarthy (pbuh) had to save the country from its insidious menace 
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Mar 15, 2014 14:01
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Back about the Lucifer thing, it might be worth reading up about Jewish mysticism about the concept, specifically kabbalism nd Gnostic teachings regarding the topic. The concept of the demiurge is a never-ending spiral of interesting storytelling.
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Mar 15, 2014 14:55
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Shageletic posted:Back about the Lucifer thing, it might be worth reading up about Jewish mysticism about the concept, specifically kabbalism nd Gnostic teachings regarding the topic. The concept of the demiurge is a never-ending spiral of interesting storytelling. I had heard that word in relation to comics but I had no idea what it meant. After one wiki article and another site I have a wild new direction I want to go in...
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Mar 15, 2014 15:46
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Completely unrelated to the above discussion of the devil, but when do you know it's time to abandon a story?
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Mar 15, 2014 16:24
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When you finish it.
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Mar 15, 2014 16:29
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shooz posted:Completely unrelated to the above discussion of the devil, but when do you know it's time to abandon a story? There is no set answer to this, but I don't agree that you have to finish EVERYTHING you start. Is it making you miserable? Are you sick of it? Has it been 5+ years since you started? Does it have problems you can't seem to fix? Do you want to work on other things but feel guilty? Is that guilt keeping you from writing anything at all? These are just some considerations, not hard-line rules. You don't have to drag your way through something that you hate just because at one point you didn't hate it. Put it away. Start something new. Maybe you'll even hate it less later and can come back to it. Or recycle some of it's ideas into something new that excited you. If you find yourself abandoning everything you start, it might be time for some introspection, but there's no shame in walking away from something that's not working.
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Mar 15, 2014 17:59
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edit: removed
blue squares fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 19:26
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Is there a way of knowing what to cut in a story? Often, for thunderdome stories especially, I end up with five or six stories. All of them just barely above the word count, and often it's my weakest story that ends up submitted. Wordcount is a hard thing to deal with, at least it is for me. I know I can probably cut a large portion of the story, but honestly I don't even know where to start. Is there any suggestions for this? Or is someone interested in putting together a guide for it?
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Mar 16, 2014 02:02
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If you find that your stories are too long, the best way to shorten things is to get rid of unnecessary detail. If you want to link a TD entry that had this particular problem, I could give you specific advice, but in general, unnecessary details are either: -Stylistic fluff, like flowery metaphors or complicated phrasing -Redundant detail, where you say someone is angry, then they say something angry, and then you see their internal monologue about how they're angry -Unimportant information, which fills out a scene but doesn't contribute to the story in a meaningful way When you look through your story with an eye to cut material, you want to look for anything that doesn't drive your story forward.
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Mar 16, 2014 02:54
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Write to length. Erogenous beef did a great guide on that in one of his recent tdome posts.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:04
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To save elfdude from having to search, I went and found it myself.Erogenous Beef posted:Sit-Down Time With Unca Beef: A Word about Plots Another thing to keep in mind is that certain stories just won't work well in a short amount of time. I had to write a 500 word story this week, and it meant that I had to choose an idea that would fit in that space. You can't squeeze a ballad into 500 words. An area that's often ripe for paring down is the opening. I like strong openings, and I think that opening with something that introduces the conflict in your story is one of the best ways to go about it. Not only is the conflict (hopefully) the most interesting part of your story, but if you start right off by thinking about what's going wrong, then you'll have good momentum and you won't get bogged down trying to lay out a whole scene in your introduction before you get to the good stuff.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:24
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Since I don't have a Thunderdome story or anything to be writing, I decided to give you, Elfdude, a fairly in-depth crit on how to reduce redundancy with one of your TD entries. (It's the Lego week entry.) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y3nYGJXpnGFlzhHnygf0lcKGeEAIvIqPmMAQT7RHqpU/edit?usp=sharing Edit: I copied your story into a new file and did a rough edit of my suggestions into your story. The original story was 743 words. With my revisions, I got it down to 565. That's about 25% of the story that I was able to cut back, just by tweaking your phrasing to use less words. Overall, that was the biggest problem in that story--you just used more words to say things that could be said with fewer words. The advantage of shorter, simpler phrases is that not only do they use fewer words, but they're clearer and more evocative than getting bogged down in a mess of grammar. To grab an example from the crit I gave you: elfdude posted:The activity of cleaning had always reminded him of his mother. When she was alive he was still too young to be of much use on the farm, and so his mother had given him chores instead. They were really the only memories he had of her before her untimely demise. The thought of her death brought a frown to his face. Now that he was a murderer he had hoped that the thought of death wouldn’t bug him so much. Contrary to his hopes, for some reason he felt like death bugged him more than usual. rewrite posted:Cleaning always reminded him of his mother. While she was alive, he was too young to work on the farm. His memories of her were of the chores around the house she gave him. But thinking of his mother made him think of her death, then the dead creditors, then his dead father. The advantage of the rewrite is that it's shorter and that it gets closer to showing how death is dominating his thoughts. Djeser fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 04:25
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bluesquares and Dr. Kloctopussy - thanks for the replies. Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Do you want to work on other things but feel guilty? Is that guilt keeping you from writing anything at all? This sounded a little too familiar. I haven't gotten any proper writing done for a long time because I keep either A) struggling with the story I am supposed to be working on, or B) hastily jotting down words for other ideas I have, but not focusing, because I should obviously be working on the other one. Going to at least nominally abandon it, so that I can focus on something else and allow myself to recycle some ideas.
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Mar 16, 2014 13:00
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Dan Harmon has got a series of articles about a plot structure that is pretty adaptable to word count - or rather running time, since he wrote them to help people tell a complete story in a five minute video for Channel 101. They might be helpful to keep word counts down: Story Structure 101: Super Basic poo poo Story Structure 102: Pure, Boring Theory. Story Structure 103: Let's Simplify Before Moving On Story Structure 104: The Juicy Details Story Structure 105: How TV is Different Story Structure 106: Five Minute Pilots
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Mar 16, 2014 14:41
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