|
Generic Octopus posted:If you have time to kill, you might want to look into a Killswitch build; it's a hybrid of Warlord and Artificer that's very tactician-y and a very strong support/leader/enabler. Uses Int and I believe isn't concerned with a secondary so Cha can work fine. It's kinda min-maxish but the build mainly serves to boost up the rest of the party, so power discrepancy across the table isn't normally an issue. I haven't hybrided in 4e yet but this sounds very interesting. Would I start with a Pixie Warlord and then multi into Artificer?
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 17:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 04:40 |
|
|
killstealing posted:I haven't hybrided in 4e yet but this sounds very interesting. Would I start with a Pixie Warlord and then multi into Artificer? Multiclassing is different than Hybriding. Hybrid Characters are build that way from the start, and are considered to be each class, but only get a subset of class properties from each class, and, to simplify it, switch off each level which class they take powers from.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 17:39
|
|
|
Check PHB3 for hybrid rules, but it's way, way easier to use a character builder. Hybrids have a lot of potential to do cool and interesting/powerful things, but it's also very easy to make them horrible in a number of ways, so they're often traps. Adding to what Klungar said, Hybrids essentially get a few "core" features from their classes (often reduced in some way, like 1/encounter healing instead of 2, or "This only works with [class] powers specifically"). You then get access to the feat "Hybrid Talent" which lets you pick an additional class feature. When you pick powers, you have to have at least 1 power of each type from each class (so if you're a Ranger|Fighter and took a ranger encounter power at level 1, you'd need to take a fighter power at level 3, then choose from either at level 7). You can still take Multiclass feats, nothing about multiclassing changes really. Generally it's been my experience that Hybrids are either really powerful builds that've been charoped to the max, or are horrible messes made by people who wanted to be a master of sword and spell so built a Fighter|Wizard. Killswitch is the former, but the way it works is more likely to make the table say, "Man, glad [character] is around, his buffs/utilities are awesome." And as others have said, traditional Lazylord can get pretty boring, and I say that as someone who enjoys (most) Essentials class design.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 18:28
|
|
|
Hybrids are usually traps for everything except the lazylord, which makes almost every hybrid combination better with minimal effort.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 18:42
|
|
|
My Vampire/Cleric hybrid is working pretty well. I mean I'm also a revenant, so having that heal when I get too close to negative bloodied is super useful.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 18:45
|
|
|
I've never seen a hybrid build at the table that was "wow that's really much better than a pure class," although I'm sure there's a few that take great advantage of synergies. It's really attractive to beginners who don't know what they're doing but like the sound of it, or min/maxers who are bored of playing pure class. In a game where you get the tax feats for free they are better, since buying back class features (or other class taxes for two classes) makes you more feat-intensive. Lazylord is great because granting free attacks to the people at the table with the strongest attacks is extremely powerful. You can do this to some degree with pretty much every leader, though, especially as you advance in level.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 18:49
|
|
|
Elmo Oxygen posted:Hybrids are usually traps for everything except the lazylord, which makes almost every hybrid combination better with minimal effort. Hybrids are indeed almost always traps -- I would hypothesize that 90% plus are weaker than either of their parent classes. They are not unplayably crippled, but they will be outshined by even normal-person-optimized pure classes, and will look pretty sad indeed compared to Cobrai Kai char-op.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 18:51
|
|
|
Myriad Truths posted:Okay, totally unrelated question but this has been bothering me for ages and I was wondering what people's opinions are. I think it's just a poor wording. I think it means "Since your last (Short Rest or Extended Rest)" rather than "Since your last short rest or since your last Extended Rest" because otherwise it would mean novaing all your Vestiges during the last encounter of the day would give you all of your vestiges during your first encounter of the next.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 18:52
|
|
|
Elmo Oxygen posted:Hybrids are usually traps for everything except the lazylord, which makes almost every hybrid combination better with minimal effort. Nope, |Cleric is awesome for basically any STR-primary striker (particularly Barbs and Rangers), it fixes the AC issues that often exist with those classes (Battle Cleric's Lore) and comes with some surprisingly good striker powers (Mighty Hew, Weapon of Astral Flame) and is even better if you subscribe to the slightly iffy charop interpretation of the Hybrid rules that counts Turn Undead as your Cleric attack power and therefore lets you take all your encounter powers from your striker half. There are a bunch of reasonably well-optimised Hybrids, but |Cleric, |Lazylord and |Artificer are most common, the former for the reasons mentioned above, the latter because they have some weak levels, and complement nicely some classes that have similar weak levels. Hybridding Striker|Striker basically never works. Hybridding in general is hard to do right, but done right, you get killswitch.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 19:04
|
|
|
There are also a number of classes that just aren't great at their main role to begin with, but can add a lot as hybrids. Warlock seems the shining example there; Warlocks are really unexceptional strikers barring the Hellish Rebuke spamming builds only, but that they're the single most versatile class in the game (and that their lost class features are all easy to recover without taking up Hybrid Talent) makes them exceptional hybrids.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 19:31
|
|
|
I don't think you even actually crash when you fly higher than 1 at the end of your turn as a pixie, you just float down to height 1. Basically it's a limiter on how high a ledge you can reach or how wide a chasm you can cross in one turn, plus it keeps you from just spending the whole battle out of half the enemies' reach. Pixie flight does grant you near immunity to being knocked prone: - when you fly and are knocked prone, you instead fall to the ground first - you're only really knocked prone if you fall more than your fly speed - thanks to the maximum height, pixies are almost never going to be flying higher than their fly speed Only way to do it, really, is to knock a pixie prone on its turn if it's flying higher than 6, or ground it with an attack that knocks prone, then actually knock it prone with a separate attack.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 19:40
|
|
|
Myriad Truths posted:There are also a number of classes that just aren't great at their main role to begin with, but can add a lot as hybrids. Warlock seems the shining example there; Warlocks are really unexceptional strikers barring the Hellish Rebuke spamming builds only, but that they're the single most versatile class in the game (and that their lost class features are all easy to recover without taking up Hybrid Talent) makes them exceptional hybrids. Which is probably most of the reason why Hexblades have never shown up as a Hybrid option. "Yeah sure, here have a really strong 1h weapon as well as the words "Warlock" and "Arcane" attached to your character. Oh armor? Sure here have scale."
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 20:15
|
|
|
Yeah, Warlock|Swordmage is a really strong defender. The thing to bear in mind with hybrids is that usually, they don't synergise the way you think they should - hybridding striker|striker gives you fewer attacks you can get your striker bennies on - because normally uou get them on MBAs, and you lose that with a striker|striker, mostly. Also, that regardless of the hybrid, you usually want to focus pretty hard on doing one of the two things you're hybriddiing - actually trying to do both will just be too much to invest in. This is one reason why |executioner is actually really good - if you hybrid it to a class which has an in-class MBA (principally warlock, avenger, blackguard), you get a class with an even better in-class MBA, for very little cost. Hybrids are fine, but they're a HUGE system mastery trap.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 20:22
|
|
|
On the other hand leaders and especially controllers hybridize pretty great, because they don't really lose required class features.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 21:36
|
|
|
Meh, usually when you hybrid a controller, you're just making the Wizard part worse by taking half of it away 
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 21:56
|
|
|
Piell posted:On the other hand leaders and especially controllers hybridize pretty great, because they don't really lose required class features. Actually I don't think controllers make great hybrids at all with the exception of druids. For wizards, they're just so focused on control that they add very little to any other class, and their control is so varied and powerful that no other class adds much to them. Invokers actually do care a lot about their class feature and just have no way to even get it as hybrids, leaving their powers perpetually crippled (which I suspect is a failure with RAW but...). Psions just want to be spamming their at-wills and don't like getting significantly fewer power points. Seekers are so bad that they don't contribute much to their hybrids. Druids are the only exception because they have a good variety of powers to support a defender or striker role. In practice, I've found very few controller hybrids to be workable, but I've sure seen a lot of gimmicky ones.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 22:00
|
|
|
In a world where the Wizard (and Mage and Witch and so on) didn't exist, what would be the strongest controller, hybrid or otherwise? Psure it's Invoker|Cleric, but I don't know enough about Druids and others to assert that completely.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
Straight invoker I think, absent certain builds which play around with Dizzying Mace.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 22:09
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Straight invoker I think, absent certain builds which play around with Dizzying Mace.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2014 23:27
|
|
|
When hybrids work well it's normally down to the action economy, and when they don't it's again due to the action economy and MAD. As a rule of thumb Controllers almost exclusively use Standard Actions Defenders (other than Paladins) are based round Interrupts (and to an extent their standard actions). Leaders want minor actions (They are a common exception to the don't hybrid within role rule because you can create more minor actions) Strikers are based round standards and sometimes interrupts. If you are using more action types than your base classes you win the action economy as long as you don't have negative synergy elsewhere. This means you seldom want to hybrid two standard action classes (controllers or strikers) with each other - you can only take a standard action once/round. On the other hand adding Lazylord to a non-leader means you're now making use of your minor actions for healing - a huge win. Wizard|Swordmage again plays with the action economy very successfully. But putting it brutally, hybriding a striker (or controller) with a leader means you get 100% of the punch of striker (or controller) powers while using striker powers (i.e. most of the time especially if you have something like Twin Strike), and healing almost for free. Wardens and swordmages make for the best hybridding defenders due to only wearing light armour - and hybrid well with any other role that shares their stats. Controllers and strikers seldom hybrid well with each other, and defenders don't with other defenders or anyone in much lighter armour. Edit: And if you're willing to take risks, the best controllers are Malediction Invokers with Superior Will. As long as you don't mind dazing yourself...
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2014 00:25
|
|
|
Myriad Truths posted:There are also a number of classes that just aren't great at their main role to begin with, but can add a lot as hybrids. Warlock seems the shining example there; Warlocks are really unexceptional strikers barring the Hellish Rebuke spamming builds only, but that they're the single most versatile class in the game (and that their lost class features are all easy to recover without taking up Hybrid Talent) makes them exceptional hybrids. Warlock's super because they have two At-Wills that are basic attacks and when you hybrid you can take Eldritch Strike and still get your curse damage while also doing whatever your other class does because Basic Attack. I personally like some kind of combo of Hybrid Swordmage, Warlock, or Warlord. Some other defenders are all right too. As noted, you usually want to combine different class types, the exception sometimes being Leader|Leader. e: My favorite lazylord builds are the ones that usually start X|Warlord hybrid and multiclass to Invoker for the Flame of Hope paragon path, which gives a ridiculous party-wide +Int to attack rolls as its action point feature. Before paragon hybrid leader builds usually give small bonuses that your party appreciates and some healing, after paragon Flame of Hope or Spell Commander or whatever else makes them absurd. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Mar 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2014 01:21
|
|
|
I've been talking about Trifold 4e on and off for a while in chat. It's far, far closer to a clone of 4e than any I've seen before - but I've made a few tweaks to it (the Skill System has had the skills changed, mostly the interaction skills although endurance has gone and dungeoneering's now engineering* - and I've said that the default is a hex grid for two). I've also changed HP to stun and dying to KO - with a Coup De Grace killing anyone KO'd. And a couple of things like Charging have been relegated to power cards. The plan is that a 4e clone cut down like this can much more easily enable others to build classes (the hard work), and for hacks. Magical Girl, Super Sentai, and Professional Wrestling come to mind. Levelling will be game-specific I think. What do people think? * The new list of skills is
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2014 21:26
|
|
|
So, I'm getting ready to DM a 4E game soon, and I don't want to use feats because my players have two problems: 1) choice paralysis when faced with feat lists 2) selective amnesia such that they never take advantage of feats anyways (e.g. they choose Burning Blizzard and never add the extra +1 damage to cold/acid spells). We're going to use all the usual baked-in mathfixes, plus inherent bonuses -- these will go into a single "+ to ATT, + to DAM, + to DEFs" box on the character sheet. I was thinking that, with inherent bonuses, I could just add interesting feat effects to equipment; my players are more likely to remember details written on illustrated notecards. Is there anything I should watch out for, or any advice, or other cool ideas people have?
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2014 21:47
|
|
|
Roctavian posted:So, I'm getting ready to DM a 4E game soon, and I don't want to use feats because my players have two problems: This is so much more homework than just using free feat taxes and sticking with the feat system, and it doesn't really solve anything--up to and including making your party not as good as it should be at a given level. For instance, my rogue using feats is going to massively out-DPR your rogue. Set your players down on the class guide for their class: http://community.wizards.com/forum/4e-character-optimization/threads/1478896 If they need note cards, they need note cards.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2014 21:53
|
|
|
Feat paralysis is a fair thing - the class guides are decent for averting it. Forgetting to use them is an irritant - personally, I try to avoid it for newer players when building characters for them by simply putting in +numbers feats for the most part, rather than things they they have to remember to trigger.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2014 22:46
|
|
|
Removing feats seems like a really bad idea if you're just throwing it in as a house rule.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 01:35
|
|
|
Conceivably you could give people fewer feats, like one every three levels instead of every two, if your players are having to take low-impact feats that aren't interesting enough to remember. I think that would be alright.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 01:42
|
|
|
Give them a smaller list of feats they can choose or limit rulebooks imo. No feats in 4e sounds lame because you usually get so many so they are a big part of your character. Without feats, my Avenger would pretty much play like any Avenger of that race and censure. Just look at the feats per level per character and pick out 3 they can choose from.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 01:51
|
|
|
neonchameleon posted:I've been talking about Trifold 4e on and off for a while in chat.... Apparently I am a complete idiot. Giving the link to Trifold 4e might help.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 03:01
|
|
|
killstealing posted:Give them a smaller list of feats they can choose or limit rulebooks imo. No feats in 4e sounds lame because you usually get so many so they are a big part of your character. Without feats, my Avenger would pretty much play like any Avenger of that race and censure. Just look at the feats per level per character and pick out 3 they can choose from. I think I'll do something like this, and give them a list of feats that are relevant, once or twice a tier.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 03:25
|
|
|
Myriad Truths posted:Conceivably you could give people fewer feats, like one every three levels instead of every two, if your players are having to take low-impact feats that aren't interesting enough to remember. I think that would be alright.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 03:34
|
|
|
Roctavian posted:I think I'll do something like this, and give them a list of feats that are relevant, once or twice a tier. Put in some things with flavor though. Unarmored Agility makes someone feel like they're a ninja and it's a solid feat for unarmored combat classes as well, etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 03:36
|
|
|
I briefly popped into the last thread, so here goes again. I'm trying to get some of my friends into D&D, and having played a couple rounds of 4e I guess that makes me the most qualified to DM. I've built up level 1 character sheets for my friends, trying to get a good spread of skills, playstyles, etc. But I'm having creative trouble trying to come up with a scenario. I want to just have a short dungeon crawl under the pretenses of "the local ruler has hired you to look for the armour of the previous duke, supposedly lost with him while he was exploring the caves". I'm also planning on them fighting a young white dragon as an end-boss (killing a dragon's a great way to get them keen for more, right?). But I'm sitting in front of masterplan and can't really get more sophisticated with my planning than a linear series of rooms with different enemies. What are some good traps to use? Or skill encounters, for that matter? I dunno. I'm already trying to give them several ways of solving problems to get everyone involved (they can break down a door, lockpick it or find a secret magic entrance, for example), but when it comes to making interesting encounters or plausible forks in the dungeon I just feel drained.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 04:05
|
|
|
To keep fights interesting, just make sure there's always some sort of circumstantial pressure. Killing dudes is boring, killing dudes while avoiding the exploding mushrooms that knock people around like pinballs is fun. Pick a mechanic and build around it; anything that adds time pressure or the players can interact with easily (i.e. without sacrificing their standard action) during the fight can add a lot. Dirty secret of DMing: you can have your forks lead to the same fights  , just swap out the relevant plot detail(s) as necessary. Although you might want to keep a primary path ready in case your group has trouble deciding its own direction.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 04:31
|
|
|
isndl posted:To keep fights interesting, just make sure there's always some sort of circumstantial pressure. Killing dudes is boring, killing dudes while avoiding the exploding mushrooms that knock people around like pinballs is fun. Pick a mechanic and build around it; anything that adds time pressure or the players can interact with easily (i.e. without sacrificing their standard action) during the fight can add a lot. It's not so much the fights I'm trying to keep interesting, it's just stuff to do outside of fighting. I've tried doing some trap rooms, but I'm not really sure 1) what makes a good trap, 2) the procedure around characters noticing traps etc. Also just other stuff to do - loot, extended skill challenges, and so on. I'm trying to spread out skills and let the players have a lot of freedom deciding what they want to do, but is some of that even necessary for a first-time playthrough? edit: the DM dirty secret is rather handy though, I hadn't really thought of that. My forks were mostly going to be things like secret trapdoors and hidden treasure chambers, though I haven't really been able to think of things for those. The Narrator fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Mar 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 04:46
|
|
|
The Narrator posted:It's not so much the fights I'm trying to keep interesting, it's just stuff to do outside of fighting. I've tried doing some trap rooms, but I'm not really sure 1) what makes a good trap, Congratulations, the party is now part of a demonic gameshow. What's behind door number one? Is it scorpions? Is it snakes? I bet it's something that requires a NAD check, and I bet someone is going to fail it (leading to doubt, fear).
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 04:49
|
|
|
killstealing posted:Congratulations, the party is now part of a demonic gameshow. What's behind door number one? Is it scorpions? Is it snakes? I bet it's something that requires a NAD check, and I bet someone is going to fail it (leading to doubt, fear). This has absolutely helped, thank you immensely. At this point I think I'll scrap the dungeon conceit and instead throw the PCs into a hosed-up haunted house, complete with illusion traps, monsters of varying intelligence/assholishness and I guess some sort of trickster spirit running the show. Very much going to have a literal monster closet.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 05:39
|
|
|
Roctavian posted:I think I'll do something like this, and give them a list of feats that are relevant, once or twice a tier. If you use the old offline CB mod (if you don't, you should if you can) you could just delete all the junk feats.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 09:08
|
|
|
Between expertise, improved defenses, weapon/implement focus, and melee training you have covered more than half of the heroic tier when it comes to boring math feats that are baked directly into your char sheet without having to remember them. Add armor proficiency feats (for classes who don't lose abilities for not wearing light armor) and replace improved defenses with the three other defense enhancement feats and you have pretty much cleared the entire heroic tier when it comes to feat choice. And that's not even counting non-combat feats like skill focus etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 13:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 04:40 |
|
|
Or an init-booster, don't forget initiative.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 13:30
|
|