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I don't think Tolkien would have called them either maia or vala, that's the point. I don't think they decended to arda like them either, I think they were created along with the world. Like natural forces within the world. The maiar were brought into being to serve the valar and help shape the world yet ungoliant and tom are separate. They are a natural part of the world with great power, yet do not seem to work with or against the valar. They are separate agents, likely with their own purpose that wasn't explained. but who knows? It is one of the few things I wish Tolkien had extrapolated on. Catsplosion fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Mar 14, 2014 |
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Mar 14, 2014 19:47
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Gianthogweed posted:
"Yo dem elves and men were some BULLSHIT."
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Mar 14, 2014 20:32
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euphronius posted:They are all Ainur of some kind, in my opinion. Tom, Ungoliant, Goldberry. (Everyone forgets Goldberry!) Ugh, you're right, of course! Goldberry lies forgotten indeed (by all save Tom). Tolkien's world is actually full of spirits of various desires and powers. Caradhras seemed to be filled with the malice of many (although Peter Jackson's interpretation was interesting), and the dragons are said to have been fell spirits given form by Morgoth. It may seem like a small box, but I actually think the model allows for a tremendous amount of variety. Balrog or Goldberry? Shelob or Melian? And so forth. Catsplosion posted:The maiar were brought into being to serve the valar and help shape the world yet ungoliant and tom are separate. They are a natural part of the world with great power, yet do not seem to work with or against the valar. They are separate agents, likely with their own purpose that wasn't explained. I disagree: by being "brought into the world", the Maiar are by definition "supernatural", unlike Men and Elves, who by definition are (merely) "natural." It's possible Tom, Ungoliant, and others were not Maiar (or Valar), but given Tom's description that he "came first", I prefer the interpretation that he did indeed come from outside the world. Ynglaur fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Mar 14, 2014 |
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Mar 14, 2014 22:08
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One of my favorite creepy unknowns is the creatures that Gandalf talks about when he's talking about his fight with the balrog. He says something about things digging tunnels that are far older than anybody else and far deeper than anybody else. I like the idea that ungoliant came from "outside" or whatever and is part of the darkness that surrounds the world or w/e it's called. Maybe these deep underground critters are something like that but came from the bottom up, that sure would be cool.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:14
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Read the Shelob chapter again for an example of creepy darkness magic she has - and must have inherited from Ungoliant. Ungoliant is referred to having "unlight". Which is much cooler than darkness.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:18
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rypakal posted:e: Ainu or Children, that's all you get. Tolkien wrote himself into a fancy little box that makes creatures like Tom and Ungoliant (and the orcs in general) problematic. BUT WE CAN HAMMER THEM IN. That's debatable. The published version of the Silmarillion gives the impression that Illuvatar and the Ainur were the only beings to exist prior to Arda, and that everything else was created as part of Arda. Remember though that the Silmarillion was pieced together by Tolkien's son from a whole lot of different texts that often contradicted each other. We don't know what his father's original intention was. Earlier versions of the creation story talk about pixies and faeries and other beings entering Arda from outside. I've always thought that spirits from outside Arda were still part of Tolkien's conception of middle-earth, even later on. In the Book of Lost Tales an alternate version of the Ungoliant story mentions that even the Valar don't know what she is, which wouldn't make sense if she's a Maiar. In Lord of the Rings after his fight with the Balrog, Gandalf encounters "nameless things" that Sauron doesn't know about and that are older than him that Gandalf doesn't even want to speak of. Again that doesn't sound like Maiar. My impression has always been that Tolkien always meant for their to be other "spirits" in the world separate from the Ainur and the Children. The History of Middle-Earth series gives us a lot of variations, and Tolkien's ideas were still evolving late in life. We don't know what he would have settled on if had lived to write the Silmarillion himself, a fact that his son has freely admitted.
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Mar 14, 2014 23:49
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Narmer posted:That's debatable. The published version of the Silmarillion gives the impression that Illuvatar and the Ainur were the only beings to exist prior to Arda, and that everything else was created as part of Arda. Remember though that the Silmarillion was pieced together by Tolkien's son from a whole lot of different texts that often contradicted each other. We don't know what his father's original intention was. Earlier versions of the creation story talk about pixies and faeries and other beings entering Arda from outside. I've always thought that spirits from outside Arda were still part of Tolkien's conception of middle-earth, even later on. In the Book of Lost Tales an alternate version of the Ungoliant story mentions that even the Valar don't know what she is, which wouldn't make sense if she's a Maiar. In Lord of the Rings after his fight with the Balrog, Gandalf encounters "nameless things" that Sauron doesn't know about and that are older than him that Gandalf doesn't even want to speak of. Again that doesn't sound like Maiar. My impression has always been that Tolkien always meant for their to be other "spirits" in the world separate from the Ainur and the Children. The History of Middle-Earth series gives us a lot of variations, and Tolkien's ideas were still evolving late in life. We don't know what he would have settled on if had lived to write the Silmarillion himself, a fact that his son has freely admitted. This is kinda where I fall. I think it "likely" that either 1) Eru created various "spirits," things, etc., before the Ainur, or else, alternatively, that the creation of Ea involved the contemporaneous creation of earth spirits, some of which we see as Bombadil, Ungoliant, etc.
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Mar 15, 2014 00:42
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Narmer posted:That's debatable. The published version of the Silmarillion gives the impression that Illuvatar and the Ainur were the only beings to exist prior to Arda, and that everything else was created as part of Arda. Remember though that the Silmarillion was pieced together by Tolkien's son from a whole lot of different texts that often contradicted each other. We don't know what his father's original intention was. Earlier versions of the creation story talk about pixies and faeries and other beings entering Arda from outside. I've always thought that spirits from outside Arda were still part of Tolkien's conception of middle-earth, even later on. In the Book of Lost Tales an alternate version of the Ungoliant story mentions that even the Valar don't know what she is, which wouldn't make sense if she's a Maiar. In Lord of the Rings after his fight with the Balrog, Gandalf encounters "nameless things" that Sauron doesn't know about and that are older than him that Gandalf doesn't even want to speak of. Again that doesn't sound like Maiar. My impression has always been that Tolkien always meant for their to be other "spirits" in the world separate from the Ainur and the Children. The History of Middle-Earth series gives us a lot of variations, and Tolkien's ideas were still evolving late in life. We don't know what he would have settled on if had lived to write the Silmarillion himself, a fact that his son has freely admitted. I agree, though I will point out that Tolkien was definitely working on a definitive version of the Silmarillion and some versions of stories are more "official" than others.
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Mar 15, 2014 03:27
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Levitate posted:I agree, though I will point out that Tolkien was definitely working on a definitive version of the Silmarillion and some versions of stories are more "official" than others. Imagine how awesome that would've been if Tolkien was actually able to finish the Silmarillion in his lifetime that was complete with about 1500 pages (matching the length of LOTR) that expanded on the 350 or pages that we got from his son.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:45
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Thanks to whoever mentioned the Tolkien Professor podcast. My job keeps me on the road a lot and it's been great having someone pick through the books and point out a lot of the symbolism, metaphors, and subtext that might get glazed over in a casual reading. I just finished his coverage of the hobbit, and it's given me a completely new appreciation for the book, and this is coming from a dedicated Tolkien nut. The episode about Riddles in the Dark alone kind of blew my mind in how much is going on during Bilbo and Gollums first meeting. I guess I was always too distracted by the riddles to pay attention to how they're used both as characterization, and a philosophical fencing match.
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Mar 16, 2014 10:56
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I've listened to about 85% of every Tolkien Prof podcast. Remember he posts on Mythguard Academy too.
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Mar 16, 2014 19:22
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If only we could scrub that one dude from the Tolkien class he did right after the hobbit lectures. You know the guy. Silmarillion seminar really brought a lot of things to light. I'm waiting for his full and deep analysis of the History of Middle Earth 
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Mar 16, 2014 21:36
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Hahah yes that guy was terrible. He had a good point like 1/20 of the time and it took it 5 minutes to say it.
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Mar 17, 2014 01:59
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The Silmarillion has to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes into conflict with the existence of things like Tom and Ungoliant. It's explicitly Elvish in origin, and with the Elves being so close to the Valar of course they believe that everything came from Eru; and yet I don't think it's that unbelievable that if Eru existed, so might other spirits have existed before Ea yet not created by Eru. They are beings of immense power and yet they appear to be completely disinterested in the world around them, aside from Ungoliant's theft of power from Valinor. She was able to trap even Morgoth for a time, as well as guard against the eyes of the Valar - to me this suggests something much more than a fallen Maia, and yet something that does not really care all that much about the war among the Ainur or the ultimate fate of Arda.
Jazerus fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Mar 17, 2014 |
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Mar 17, 2014 04:58
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Least those things aren't in a confusing mess as opposed to the many contradictions and theories on dragons like one I found on the wiki and awful Middle Earth forums being Morgoth made some people shapeshift into lizards and then hosed their brains out or something stupid like that.
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Mar 17, 2014 13:40
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One thing I've heard multiple viewpoints on is, is middle-earth supposed to be a sort of forgotten epoch in our world and history, or its own fictional universe?
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Mar 22, 2014 00:03
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Ungoal posted:Anyone else wish their was more information on Ungoliant's backstory or what eventually became of her? She was neither Maia nor Valor yet her origins remain ambiguous, similarly to Tom Bombadil. She was also one of the very few if not the only one who was capable of and actually did subdue/defeat Morgoth single handedly. Do you think if Tolkien ever did get to finish the Silmarillion he would've left her fate unknown just like Shelob's? I think that Ungoliant was one of the nature spirit Maiar that Melkor corrupted. Canemacar posted:One thing I've heard multiple viewpoints on is, is middle-earth supposed to be a sort of forgotten epoch in our world and history, or its own fictional universe? I think that Tolkien has said that it's the first one. NikkolasKing posted:(I really hate Feanor. I consider him just as vile as any of the Dark Lords, and without any of their initial redeeming qualities) Fëanor is Tolkien's most interesting character. And without him there wouldn't be any plot in the books. He made stuff, and more importantly, he made stuff happen. He's basically anti-Frodo.
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Mar 22, 2014 00:17
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Jazerus posted:The Silmarillion has to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes into conflict with the existence of things like Tom and Ungoliant. It's explicitly Elvish in origin, and with the Elves being so close to the Valar of course they believe that everything came from Eru; and yet I don't think it's that unbelievable that if Eru existed, so might other spirits have existed before Ea yet not created by Eru. They are beings of immense power and yet they appear to be completely disinterested in the world around them, aside from Ungoliant's theft of power from Valinor. She was able to trap even Morgoth for a time, as well as guard against the eyes of the Valar - to me this suggests something much more than a fallen Maia, and yet something that does not really care all that much about the war among the Ainur or the ultimate fate of Arda. Within the story universe this would make sense, but I'm not sure what Tolkien would say about it, given that Eru is clearly his Christian God-analogue. On a slightly related topic, I run an indie nail polish shop, and I'm releasing a Silmarillion-themed collection later tonight (ca. 11:00 EST) if anyone here is into that kind of thing!
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Mar 22, 2014 00:24
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quote:Fëanor is Tolkien's most interesting character. And without him there wouldn't be any plot in the books. He made stuff, and more importantly, he made stuff happen. He's basically anti-Frodo. I would agree and expand on the fact that without Fëanor, likely no great deeds of the Elves/Men would have ever taken place. That being said, Fingolfin still makes me swoon. 
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Mar 22, 2014 03:33
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So there's something that always troubled me with LotR, and that's the corrupting influence of the One Ring. Everyone is talking about "becoming Sauron" and I've always seen that represented as literally being dominated by Sauron, such that you have to give up the One Ring to old One Eye. But if that was the case, then it would be very foolish for Sauron to actively fight to get the One Ring back, because his best bet would be to hang out in Mordor and wait for the One Ring to do its job on Frodo/Aragorn/Gandalf/Galadrial, until the dominated wraith-slave ends up bringing the ring back to its master. But I always assumed that it meant Becoming Sauron in the sense of becoming "As big of a vile SOB as Sauron", i.e. no one would know the difference between Sauron Classic and Galadrial-Sauron. But if that's the case, then it implies that, in the long-term, somehow the one who becomes New Sauron could eventually destroy Sauron Classic, but that's at odds with canon claims to immortality unless the One Ring is destroyed. So what I'm asking is, what's the current view on what happens to a dominant personality like Aragorn or Galadrial "taking the Ring"? Do they Become Sauron or Become Like Sauron and, what happens to the Sauron Classic in either case? Far more confusing than Balrog wings, in my mind.
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Mar 24, 2014 01:01
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TildeATH posted:So there's something that always troubled me with LotR, and that's the corrupting influence of the One Ring. Everyone is talking about "becoming Sauron" and I've always seen that represented as literally being dominated by Sauron, such that you have to give up the One Ring to old One Eye. But if that was the case, then it would be very foolish for Sauron to actively fight to get the One Ring back, because his best bet would be to hang out in Mordor and wait for the One Ring to do its job on Frodo/Aragorn/Gandalf/Galadrial, until the dominated wraith-slave ends up bringing the ring back to its master. The impression I have is that the ring "gives power according to one's station." So someone like, say, Bill Ferny, would just get the power to be invisible. Someone like that, though, could still be dominated by Sauron's will, and would eventually just get enslaved to the Ring and ultimately therefore to Sauron. Hobbits may have unusually strong willpower and could resist that process better than just about anyone else could, which is why Frodo, Bilbo, and even to an extent Gollum were "chosen, and not by the Ring's creator" to hold it for so long. Someone at the top end of the magical ability / willpower scale, like Galadriel, could probably resist the ring's direct domination, and might be able to turn into sort of a counter-Sauron using it and might even "win" against by using the Ring's power, such that Ring-Galadriel would be the new Lord of Middle Earth or whatever, but any such victory would be so tainted by the ring's influence that it would be just as bad as if Sauron had won directly. Basically, look at what happened to Saruman and imagine the same thing happening to Galadriel.
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Mar 24, 2014 01:13
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Someone at the top end of the magical ability / willpower scale, like Galadriel, could probably resist the ring's direct domination, and might be able to turn into sort of a counter-Sauron using it and might even "win" against by using the Ring's power, such that Ring-Galadriel would be the new Lord of Middle Earth or whatever, but any such victory would be so tainted by the ring's influence that it would be just as bad as if Sauron had won directly. Basically, look at what happened to Saruman and imagine the same thing happening to Galadriel. I've no doubt that Ring-Galadrial would be as bad as Sauron, as would Ring-Gandalf, since they explicitly state it, but what would become of Sauron himself? Because if they would ultimately, eventually, inevitably be dominated by him, then it makes no sense for Sauron to do anything except spend every effort putting a cap on Orodruin. I think that Tolkien is implying that someone like that (and the radical bit is even someone like Aragorn) would actually destroy Sauron. otherwise, why march out to attack him at the end of RotK? At least, that's how he acts. Sauron's goal is personal power, he doesn't give a whit if the world is ruled by a Sauron-like person that isn't himself.
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Mar 24, 2014 01:27
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Quick question about the silmarils. Was the Arkenstone in the Hobbit supposed to be one of the lost gems, though no one may have known what it truely was? It seemed to have the same kind of destructive allure to it the silmarils had.
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Mar 24, 2014 01:31
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^^^ that's come up before I think the general consensus is that it's unlikely due to various things people brought up, I can't remember what they were (though I think it would be cool) Sauron wants the ring back because he's afraid that someone else like Gandalf or Galadriel or whoever would use the ring to become more powerful than Sauron and get rid of him or whatever. Sauron poured his will into the Ring in order to use it as a tool to dominate other people. In doing so, it became a tool of domination and pretty much had a will of its own and became a character in its own right. It wants to return to its master Sauron and dominate people and rule the world. Since Sauron's will is tied to the ring, that means he can never actually be destroyed unless the Ring is destroyed as well. The Ring is part of Sauron, it contains his essence or whatever. So yeah Sauron will always remain as long as the Ring exists, but he can be turned into a powerless husk as well like what happened to him after Isildur cut his finger off. So basically Sauron assumes that everyone else is like Sauron and will use the ring to dominate the world. You become dominated by the Ring if you try to use it, and you also need to have a strong force of will in order to use the Ring (since it's got Sauron inside it) so yeah I think I agree with you basically turn into someone like Sauron if you try to use the Ring.
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Mar 24, 2014 01:45
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Yes the Arkenstone is totally a Silmaril in all but name. If Gandalf or Galadriel claimed the Ring, Sauron's spirit would probably diminish to irrelevancy. euphronius fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 01:52
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Canemacar posted:Quick question about the silmarils. Was the Arkenstone in the Hobbit supposed to be one of the lost gems, though no one may have known what it truely was? It seemed to have the same kind of destructive allure to it the silmarils had. It is generally held, but never explicitly stated, that the arkenstone was Luthien's Silmaril and was the same one that was set in the nauglamir, the necklace that sparked the war between the dwarves and elves in the first age, and also led to the fall of Doriath.
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Mar 24, 2014 02:51
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It wouldn't be that one, because that's the one that Eärendil inherited and which we now see in the sky as Venus. It would have been the one that Maedhros threw into a lava pit (though how it migrated from Beleriand to the east end of Rhovanion is a mystery).
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Mar 24, 2014 03:08
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Data Graham posted:It wouldn't be that one, because that's the one that Eärendil inherited and which we now see in the sky as Venus. Oh yeah, you're right. Nvm
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Mar 24, 2014 03:13
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Yeah. Presumably if it were a Silmaril it would've been recognized as such by someone at some point and started a war. My personal pet theory is that the Arkenstone wasn't a Silmaril but was a gemstone crafted by Feanor, perhaps a practice-piece.
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Mar 24, 2014 03:43
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I like to think it was just some really nice rock. Like one of those cool rocks you find at a gemstore where you scoop a bunch up and put them in a bag.
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Mar 24, 2014 03:45
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Did Tolkien ever write anything explaining the real life inspirations for some elements of Middle-Earth? I mean, Gondor is pretty much a version of Constantinople, but I'd like to know if Tolkien ever wrote about those parallels (I know he wasn't keen on allegory, but some similarities are more obvious)
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Mar 24, 2014 07:52
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radlum posted:Did Tolkien ever write anything explaining the real life inspirations for some elements of Middle-Earth? I mean, Gondor is pretty much a version of Constantinople, but I'd like to know if Tolkien ever wrote about those parallels (I know he wasn't keen on allegory, but some similarities are more obvious) No, he would rather readers draw their own parallels, as you have done.
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Mar 24, 2014 09:17
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rypakal posted:No, he would rather readers draw their own parallels, as you have done. and that's what makes reading so fun.
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Mar 24, 2014 10:30
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TildeATH posted:
Aragon and the free peoples don't attack Sauron to destroy him. They know that's impossible without also destroying the Ring- the attack at the end of RotK is just an attempt to draw Sauron's attention away from Mordor to give Frodo a chance to accomplish his mission without being discovered first.
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Mar 24, 2014 14:25
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I believe it's stated that the Arkenstone was found, and then shaped, by the Dwarves, and was not found pre-cut or any some such. While it superficially shares may of the characteristics of the Silmarils, it doesn't seem to have the same impact on its viewers, and certainly doesn't seem to have the light of the Two Trees held within it. If it were a Silmaril, I have to believe at least some of the remaining Noldor would have gone to war to recover it long before the coming of Smaug. Additionally, the only Silmarils unaccounted for are one thrown into the Sea, west of Beleriand, and one thrown into a magma pit, in Beleriand. Suddenly "popping up" thousands of miles to the East, and across multiple mountain ranges, seems, to put it lightly, implausible. On the topic of Galadriel, or Elrond, or Gandalf seizing the ring, I think Sauron was not only afraid of destruction. I think he also feared being dominated. He played second fiddle to Morgoth for a long time, but had long since been his own master, so to speak. The Ring seems to grant the power to dominate the will and thoughts of others, and I see no reason Sauron himself would be immune to such effects. Bad enough to lose the Ring; worse, yet, to end up as the hand-slave to one of the hated Noldor, or (perhaps worse), a Man of Westernesse.
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Mar 24, 2014 14:28
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radlum posted:Did Tolkien ever write anything explaining the real life inspirations for some elements of Middle-Earth? I mean, Gondor is pretty much a version of Constantinople, but I'd like to know if Tolkien ever wrote about those parallels (I know he wasn't keen on allegory, but some similarities are more obvious) Yeah I don't think he ever spelled it out, but some similarities are obvious. The hobbits basically go on a tour backwards in time through England (Elrond's court as an idealized Norman England, Anglo-Saxon Rohirrim, Gondor as Roman Britain) and then Mordor has lots of obvious parallels with WWI trench warfare.
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Mar 24, 2014 14:40
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah I don't think he ever spelled it out, but some similarities are obvious. The hobbits basically go on a tour backwards in time through England (Elrond's court as an idealized Norman England, Anglo-Saxon Rohirrim, Gondor as Roman Britain) and then Mordor has lots of obvious parallels with WWI trench warfare. At the same time, Tolkien seemed pretty adamant about denying any real world parallels or that LOTR was in any way a parable of modern issues. Which seems patently false to me, but he's the author.
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Mar 24, 2014 15:36
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He said it isn't an Allegory. Not that there isn't references to his time. The Scouring of the shire is replete with modern references for example. Well modern to JRRT. There is no hidden meaning to LOTR. It is a story about Middle Earth and that's it.
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Mar 24, 2014 15:45
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redshirt posted:Which seems patently false to me, but he's the author. Which is yet another reason to completely ignore what an author says about their own books. Radio! posted:Aragon and the free peoples don't attack Sauron to destroy him. They know that's impossible without also destroying the Ring- the attack at the end of RotK is just an attempt to draw Sauron's attention away from Mordor to give Frodo a chance to accomplish his mission without being discovered first. Yes, of course, but why does Sauron take the bait? Why care at all if the filthy Dunedain is just going to be his newest ringwraith in a century or two. We know Sauron is patient, though I do think you could argue simple hubris and impatience led him to do it. I think he was afraid of becoming a new slave, because even though he's immortal, there are lots of things that are immortal in Middle Earth, so what's the point of living forever to wait for another sinking of whatever Numenor you've got yourself enslaved by this time.
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Mar 24, 2014 15:47
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His works arent Allegorical. You dont need to know what JRRT thought to see that. And if you go down the Allegory road you miss a lot of the books and stories anyway. Is Saruman supposed to be a modern extremist politician using the power of media to arouse the People on class lines? If someone of strong enough Will used the Ring Sauron would never get it back. The One Ring is not like the 7 or the 9, which were just traps.
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Mar 24, 2014 15:51
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