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Went to my first ever writing group today. It was really fun to tell people what was wrong with their stories! Because they were baaaad. Except for one, but it was very short. Of course, I wasn't a dick about it, despite what my posting history in this thread may suggest. I was very nice. But I pointed out the flaws. I was probably the best writer in the room, though, so I hope next time I'll be able to get more feedback on my own work beyond little nitpicky details.
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Mar 18, 2014 04:24
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Even though I'm not a great writer, this is why I fear going to an irl writing group. I've heard the bar can be really low, but it's probably worth giving a shot
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Mar 18, 2014 04:51
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blue squares posted:Went to my first ever writing group today. It was really fun to tell people what was wrong with their stories! Because they were baaaad. Except for one, but it was very short. Any details on these stories?
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Mar 18, 2014 08:58
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I recently wrote the following part of a sentence: "Everywhere trees would be cut off cleanly just above head height" and now I'm not so sure about it. The idea is that most or some trees are cut off everywhere (the point of view is traveling through a forest), but this doesn't sound too good, and the quoted option doesn't seem to be real English to me. What's your opinion, thread?
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Mar 18, 2014 12:43
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The first thing I would do is chuck a comma in after 'everywhere'. Then I'd think about maybe 'chopped down' or something like that instead of 'cut off'. Then I'd think about whose head that sentence seems to imply.
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Mar 18, 2014 12:47
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Thanks for input. I was thinking more along the lines of tense or complete remaking, but you bring up issues. Firstly, the second part of the sentence is "as if the top’s molecules suddenly decided to be disconnected from those in the bottom of the trunk." (Which isn't music to my ears either, but it seems to be much easier to figure out, so I'm not too worried.) So I'm not sure about "chopped down"... Also how do you suggest I bring in specifications for "head height"?  It's an idiomatic construction, and I'm running out of generic distance units in this fantasy world. Hmm, but they do say "man-sized" or something like that and no one wonders exactly what kind of man we're talking about. No?
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Mar 18, 2014 13:43
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Just use feet? What's wrong with that? Your readers will thank you
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Mar 18, 2014 14:01
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Character could walk through the forest without ducking; each tree's lower branches had been cleeved off by an unknown woodsmen, each left with several sap-oozing holes.
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Mar 18, 2014 14:41
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All trees ended an inch above Character's head. "I would hate to be that lumberjack," thought Character. "What a repetitive job."
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Mar 18, 2014 14:46
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blue squares posted:Just use feet? What's wrong with that? Your readers will thank you I'm a meter man myself... I mean a meter and about three quarters.  Which sometimes makes me agonize about what audience I'm writing for (meter or foot).crabrock posted:Character could walk through the forest without ducking; each tree's lower branches had been cleeved off by an unknown woodsmen, each left with several sap-oozing holes. No, each tree's trunk was cut apart horizontally. Imagine a Resident Evil laser (except with gaps), flying through a forest. I like the idea of a character's perspective and I think I'm satisfied with how it's come out for now. Thanks for your help, everyone.
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Mar 18, 2014 16:16
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Were the trunks taken away as if they were harvested, or are they lying discarded and tangled on the ground (obstructing the way through the forest), indicating that the thing which cut them was cutting for a different reason. Do the characters know what happened, or is it a mystery? Are they afraid that the cutter might come back, and aim lower this time?
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Mar 18, 2014 16:23
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supermikhail posted:"Everywhere trees would be cut off cleanly just above head height"
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Mar 18, 2014 16:32
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Green Crayons posted:Completely rewrite the sentence (maybe even make it two!). You can, but are not required to, reuse only the words "trees," "cut" and "head." You are a frightening violent person and I am frightened by you. Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Were the trunks taken away as if they were harvested, or are they lying discarded and tangled on the ground (obstructing the way through the forest), indicating that the thing which cut them was cutting for a different reason. Do the characters know what happened, or is it a mystery? Are they afraid that the cutter might come back, and aim lower this time? You can say the characters unintentionally caused a ripple (rip, rift? seizure?) in the space-time continuum at a little above head height (for the tallest of them). So everything is fine as long as they keep their hands away from shiny doomsday devices.
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Mar 18, 2014 16:58
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The forest disappeared at a height slightly above Conan's head. "Whoops," said Conan with a grin on his face. "I gotta stop playing with these shiny doomsday devices."
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Mar 18, 2014 19:54
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I just had a great time reading through a bunch of this thread, I feel like I've found a bunch of good resources already. I'm finally starting to write fiction after years of procrastinating or just jotting down sketches / poems. I was wondering - is anyone else here a copywriter? I feel like the fact that I write in a professional context is both a benefit and a hindrance. It's a benefit in that I spend all day reading, writing and editing things down to their purest and most direct forms. It's a hindrance in the sense that I spend all day reading, writing and editing things down to their purest and most direct forms, so I often feel "burnt-out" creatively by the end of the day. I've been doing most of my writing in various cafes and lounges on the weekends because of that, but I know I need to start writing more during the week to get anything done.
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Mar 18, 2014 20:17
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Blast Fantasto posted:I just had a great time reading through a bunch of this thread, I feel like I've found a bunch of good resources already. I'm finally starting to write fiction after years of procrastinating or just jotting down sketches / poems. Sounds like you need: Thunderdome (1/week p.r.) Edit: Also this is by the last advertising person we had round here, so the bar isn't high. quote:John’s upper cheek dripped with sweat; salty tracks formed on his face as liquid bubbled from his forehead, expelled downwards by gravity, his face distorted by stress. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Mar 18, 2014 |
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Mar 18, 2014 21:54
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As much as it shames me I have to admit, I do not face criticism well. When I posted a little excerpt here for critique it left me in a weird state and I just could not write at all and I think that was a couple of months ago now. I finally started writing again though! So that's something! I mean, it's still poo poo, but I'm hoping it will be a turd I can polish later. Hopefully I won't shut down for a couple of months the next time I receive some well deserved critique.
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Mar 18, 2014 22:13
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Blast Fantasto posted:I know I need to start writing more during the week to get anything done. I'm going to take a (probably unpopular?) stance here, and say that you might not. Everyone has to figure out their own way to fit writing into their schedule, and while writing every day or nearly every day works great for a lot of people, plugging away on the weekends might work just fine for you. If you're unsatisfied with how much you're getting done on the weekends though, here are some suggestions: 1) Write more on the weekends :P -- try to gradually increase the amount of time you spend writing each weekend, until you are hitting the numbers you want -- use time during the week to work on outlining/planning what you are going to write on the weekend so when it's time to write, you can sit down and write, not figure out wtf is going on with your story -- move all your chores and errands to week days, so you can devote the weekend to writing and chilling. 2) On week days, segregate your fiction writing, physically and mentally, from your copywriting. -- schedule your fiction writing like you would a planned activity. Put your butt in the chair for that time period and don't do anything except write or stare blankly at the computer screen/your notebook. Try a few different times if the first one isn't working for you (some people like to write first thing in the morning, others in the afternoon, etc. Depending on how flexible your work schedule is, you might be able to try all kinds of times, weeeeee!) Also pay attention to whether or not you need a break between work and fiction writing. Some people do best jumping straight from one to another, but others need to chill out, eat dinner, take a bath, whatever, before starting to write. It really depends on how braindead you are after work and if you can take a break but still motivate yourself to restart later. -- Experiment with different forms of goal-setting. Personally, I'm a fan of the pomodoro method, which is essentially work for 25 minutes, take a 5 minute break. I don't worry too much about how many words I write during each pomodoro (though I tend to hit between 500 and 750 on average). Some people find interrupting themselves every 25 minutes is a terrible idea that ruins their concentration. Other people work better with word count goals. Some people combine word count and time goals (I will write for 2 hours or until I hit 2,000 words, which ever happens first) -- try writing with a pen and paper for rough drafts (unless you already have and you hate it!) -- have a set place to write. It might be practical to go to a coffee shop during the week. Or it might not, just depends on transportation times. There was one I used to go to that was on my way home from work, so I could stop in and write for an hour before I even got home. If you are writing at home, try to have a set place there, that is just for writing. That's not always possible though, so if you are writing, for example, at the same place you write for work, try to find some simple physical change you can make to indicate "YO IT'S FICTION WRITING TIME" like...change the lighting or light a candle or something. -- have a set "ritual" for starting your fiction writing. You don't have to go full on witch or anything, but find an action/series of actions to indicate "YO IT'S FICTION WRITING TIME" like...read your notes for the scene, do free writing for 5 minutes, spend a few minutes visualizing your next scene like a movie, light a candle, chanting, jumping jacks whatever. 3) Know what you are going to write about before you start writing -- figuring this out might be something you do for the first bit of your scheduled "writing time" or it might be something you figure out earlier. -- you can do this even if you are "gardener" (i.e. you do not do much outlining before you start writing), just figure out what you are going to write about first thing, and then go from there. If you work from an outline, refer to that. 4) Set realistic goals and measure your progress towards them -- How much writing is enough to accomplish what you want? Writing is one of those things that can expand infinitely. There's always more you can do, there's always more time you could devote to it. Give yourself a goal where you can stop and feel good. Woo. -- Evaluate your goals based on your experience! If your first goal is to write 10k words per week (RANDOM NUMBER, NOT INTENDED AS A SUGGESTION), and you end up writing only 5k words for a couple weeks in a row, change your goal to 6k for the next week. On the other hand, if you write 13k, bump up that goal! Find your own goals that are challenging enough to be motivating and rewarding. Make sure meeting your goals is within your control (Do not make a goal to get a short story published within a week lol) -- Keep track of your progress and pat yourself on the back when you are doing good. GO YOU! (enlist friends to pat you on the back, too, if at all possible) -- When you aren't doing so hot, figure out why. Try to avoid feeling lovely, as much as possible (so hard). Keep tweaking things, and do not feel like a gently caress up if you have to downward tweak your goals. Figuring out how on earth to get yourself to write consistently is one of the hardest things beginning writers have to do. It is a process, just like learning to put decent sentences together is a process.
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Mar 18, 2014 22:19
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That's all very good advice, thank you. Thunderdome sounds legit, I'll probably give one of those a shot soon. EDIT: Also to be fair to us ad men, the dude who wrote that story was just applying to learn copywriting. Though he claims to have been a working journalist which if true... wow. That story was probably the most encouraging thing I've read. As inexperienced with fiction as I am, at least no one's face will be bubbling like sassages. organburner posted:As much as it shames me I have to admit, I do not face criticism well. This is one experience where I think being a copywriter probably helps. Facing criticism and rejection is a regular part of my job. So I had to learn to accept it, take it in to consideration and keep on writing or I wouldn't be getting paid. Blast Fantasto fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Mar 18, 2014 |
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Mar 18, 2014 22:46
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organburner posted:As much as it shames me I have to admit, I do not face criticism well. I feel like I should address this since I gave you your crit. I was the same way. That's why even though I've wanted to be a writer since I was little, I only got started at 30. The thing is, that's just something you have to push yourself to get over. The main way you do that is by getting a lot of criticism and forcing yourself to move past it. I was so loving nervous the few times I entered Thunderdome and put my stories out there, knowing that there would be harsh criticism afterwards. And you know what? It really sucked to have people tell me my writing was dog poo poo. But I didn't want to write dog poo poo, so I learned and now I write something that's more like that dog pee? I am bad at analogies. And criticism is just a thing that happens now. I don't even care anymore. Make yourself get over it.
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Mar 19, 2014 01:48
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Blast Fantasto posted:This is one experience where I think being a copywriter probably helps. Facing criticism and rejection is a regular part of my job. So I had to learn to accept it, take it in to consideration and keep on writing or I wouldn't be getting paid. I read that as 'wouldn't be getting laid', which works too I guess. The Doc's advice above is excellent, but if you're like me the only - only - thing that will make you write is deadlines. Without the weekly tick-tock of thunderdome deadlines in the last year or two I would have written exactly 0 words instead of nearly 50k.
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Mar 19, 2014 01:51
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sebmojo posted:I read that as 'wouldn't be getting laid', which works too I guess. Oh, this is a really good point. Goals are sort of internal deadlines, but... Not everyone is equally motivated by internal deadlines. Finding a way to put some external pressure on yourself can help a lot. Thunderdome deadlines, writing groups with deadlines, enforcement of penalties by friends and family, etc. Even having just one not-you person who is "counting on you" to make a deadline can make it feel so much more solid and real. Right now my boyfriend asks me how many words I wrote each day and gives me that really disappointed look if it's beneath my goal. Especially if I happen to be playing a video game or chatting on irc when he asks.
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Mar 19, 2014 02:05
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sebmojo posted:I read that as 'wouldn't be getting laid', which works too I guess. Sounds like you need to hang a calendar over your computer and punish yourself every time you don't meet whatever daily/weekly goal you should set for yourself. Here comes my dickish sounding side again, but if your (hypothetical you) goal is to become a professional writer, make a living off your writing, how in god's name are you not writing every single day, for hours? How can you play video games when you haven't written? I already did three today after five hours of class. Could I do more? Hell yes, but three hours in a day is okay for me right now. But playing a video game before I did that three? No way. It is already so hard to become one of the very very few that make a living from writing, that if you're not willing to write every day, why bother? On the other hand, if that's not your goal, that's fine. Do what makes you happy. Me? I don't ever want a real job again. blue squares fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 02:06
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blue squares posted:Sounds like you need to hang a calendar over your computer and punish yourself every time you don't meet whatever daily/weekly goal you should set for yourself. I don't want to be a professional writer. I have a job. I do want to write better, though, and that's coming along nicely.
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Mar 19, 2014 02:33
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blue squares posted:Sounds like you need to hang a calendar over your computer and punish yourself every time you don't meet whatever daily/weekly goal you should set for yourself. You sound like a dick because you don't seem to understand that different things work for different people. It's great that you came home today and wrote a bunch, but not everyone needs to do that every day to become a professional author. And certainly not everyone needs to expect that they should be able to just start doing that or else they'll never make it and should give up. Like...as long as I write at some point today it doesn't really matter if I do it before I play a few video games or not. Sure, for some people taking a break to goof off means they never go back to writing, and those people need to practice both not taking breaks and also getting back to work. Not to mention 5 hours of class plus 3 hours of writing is not the same as 8 hours of work plus 3 hours of writing. You basically just did a full work day, so go write for 3 more hours I guess? You act like you're doing "enough" and anyone who does less isn't, but that's just not the case. Re: calendars, self-punishment works great, probably, but if you are the kind of person who ignores self-imposed deadlines, like me, chances are you might ignore self-imposed punishment schemes as well (I do!). You might think that means I'll never make it, but really, there are lots of other ways to make it work. Writing a lot is mandatory to become a professional writer. Writing for hours every day, and punishing yourself if you don't, is not. Figuring out how to get yourself to write a lot is a valid part of learning how to write. It comes easier to some people than others, and if you're on of the people who can "just do it," then lucky you, keep on keeping on. But don't tell everyone else they don't have what it takes because they have to find a different solution.
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Mar 19, 2014 02:48
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Definitely, different things work for different people. Yeah I could have written more, but I had studying to do, papers to write, and hastily typed, unrevised opinions to post here. Plus, books to read. Still, find time to write every day. I honestly do think that is pretty non-negotiable. Even if it's half an hour. Of course, I'm not a professional author so maybe my opinion is worthless. On the other hand, you don't get in the NFL by only practicing football on the weekends and when you're not too tired from work.
blue squares fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 03:53
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organburner posted:As much as it shames me I have to admit, I do not face criticism well. Also practice giving more critique to others. I got to experience this a lot in the visual arts before I tried prose, and the feeling can be very similar -- maybe even worse, because formal critiques are often done with a bunch of people you sort of know standing around and critiquing your work in person. But it was a good lesson. Learning to critique not only helps you understand your own work as well as others', but it reminds you that it's not personal. AND it teaches you to distinguish between valid critique of your work (useful) and personal attacks (ignore these). Nobody feels good when others trash something you care about, but I know I'm never trying to hurt someone when I point out something in their prose that didn't work for me, or that needs improving. This makes it easier to accept the negative critiques I receive, because I understand where they're coming from. Crisco Kid fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 04:12
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So you're saying you don't work? Who the hell buys your food and pays your rent?
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Mar 19, 2014 04:12
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I was in the military. My savings, gi bill, and fafsa cover me. I keep expenses to a minimum because I take 20 hours of credits and I read and write as much as I can. I'm putting off getting a job as long as I can so I can keep my schoolwork and writing the main focus
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Mar 19, 2014 04:17
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I'm dead serious when I say I get the endless joy of putting cheap gold stickers on my calendar for every 1000 words written. If I do well the calendar looks real nice at the end of the month. 
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Mar 19, 2014 04:18
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blue squares posted:Definitely, different things work for different people. Yeah I could have written more, but I had studying to do, papers to write, and hastily typed, unrevised opinions to post here. Plus, books to read. Still, find time to write every day. I honestly do think that is pretty non-negotiable. Even if it's half an hour. Of course, I'm not a professional author so maybe my opinion is worthless. On the other hand, you don't get in the NFL by only practicing football on the weekends and when you're not too tired from work. I'm a legal professional. I have to read through a 500-page report today on the standard operating procedures for a company in an industry I don't care about, because I have responsibilities to my professional well-being, my bosses, and ultimately my clients. I also need to answer to governmental requirements as the clients intend to do a share listing exercise. I am lucky, since I don't have dependents currently, or else I would be answerable to their wants and needs too. After reading that report, I would need to come up with my own summary on what they have and they are lacking, and make a potentially 50-page recommendation within the fortnight on what they should do. If they breach any law, the recommendation will be longer because I need to tell them how to minimise the damage. Sometimes I look at a book, when I'm in a train, usually an anthology of short fiction. At the quieter lunch hours, I try to write a few things but usually I have to leave it till the weekends, where I [likely] have to work extra to meet deadlines. That's one project. I have 3 projects going on, and another minor property sale-and-purchase matter with today as the deadline. You just study for yourself. I'm just sayin', work is pretty different when you get to it, and it's not as easy to say "oh just write even though you work". Takes a lot more commitment than just that, and I'm lucky enough I don't have kids or relatives right now to take care of. Write when you are studying. The Saddest Rhino fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 04:22
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The Saddest Rhino posted:andard operating procedu that's what you get for having a real job, sucka.
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Mar 19, 2014 04:23
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blue squares posted:Definitely, different things work for different people. Yeah I could have written more, but I had studying to do, papers to write, and hastily typed, unrevised opinions to post here. Plus, books to read. Still, find time to write every day. I honestly do think that is pretty non-negotiable. Even if it's half an hour. Of course, I'm not a professional author so maybe my opinion is worthless. On the other hand, you don't get in the NFL by only practicing football on the weekends and when you're not too tired from work. I don't know if you've become aware of this in your quest to become a professional writer (maybe you have!) but almost every professional fiction writer has a day job. The field pays absolute dogshit to nearly everyone in it. Full-time writers are the exception, and the need to write full time means a lot of them literally can't afford to slow down and write well.
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Mar 19, 2014 05:08
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Maybe I'm unique in this, but I find it absolutely impossible to get enough criticism, and will even bait it if I need to. Don't get me wrong, the tone of the writers on this forum is far from motivating, but for me I've always considered the majority of their pejorative criticisms to be little more than an attempt at sounding cool. At the end of the day, nothing they say can really damage who I am as a writer because (IMO) it's hard to respect anything but good points over the internet. You can call me anything you want, and claim that my writing is less than poo poo, but it won't faze me until you explain why that conclusion is true. Perhaps it's different because I've had real success in writing, and I've won a variety of contests and scholarships that I can ignore their criticism, but honestly the words from a child face-to-face would have more impact on my self-esteem than long-winded allusions to my worthlessness over the internet. In summary, unless they tell you something tangible which validates what they're saying, then gently caress em. Odds are when/if they do give you something, you can down-moderate dramatically the tone surrounding it as trivial fluff and bluster. As for requiring yourself to write and whether or not a job is the same as college, I'm of mixed opinions on this. I've worked real jobs managing 150 people under me, I've also taken college classes off and on throughout. There's no doubt in my mind that I put in more effort, more work, at a higher degree of difficulty into college than most any 9 to 5 job out there. I spend 20 hours a week in classes, 20 hours a week doing homework and studying, 20 hours a week planning campaigns, events, navigating bureaucracies in student government and budgetinng $14.5 million, another 20 hours a week as the administrative director of OSCC and Oregon Student Association as well as their treasurer navigating ten different school systems, 60 house representatives, and 30 senators. Truly you can try to tell me that your job is more difficult but odds are unless you're fresh out of law school or med school nothing you do compares to the work load there. However, I think the conversation about your work load is misleading, and moot to the point that writing shouldn't be work. I write to unload. I write to de-stress. I write because it's fun. I remember asking my musician friend how he could spend 40 hours a week practicing his guitar when he worked a full time job, and he looked at me confused and responded, "Music's not work?" I mean, it's great if you have a need to master everything around you, and I won't hold it against you if you need to force yourself to write 2 hours every day to invest enough effort into accomplishing that. For me, it's not about some arbitrary goal. I can spend an entire evening writing because it fills me with joy. It's better than any video game, more interesting than any movie, more enlightening than any religion. Art at the heart of it is expression. Do you stop talking because you had a great conversation? It seems like a sad world to me in which something which is fun, is instead seen as a burden, or as work. I can't help but feel that if you view writing in this light, that your efforts are pointless. So you become good at writing, so what? So you can punctuate, so what? So you can cobble together a plot, so what? Where's the satisfaction in that? What's the point? Maybe I'm too much of an idealist, but it seems to me that if you're struggling to find free time to spend on something, then odds are you don't care about it, and if you don't care about it spend your time on something else. It's a problem of prioritization and what you value. Do you have trouble finding time for sex? I don't. The concept is the same for me.
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Mar 19, 2014 05:58
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elfdude posted:Don't get me wrong, the tone of the writers on this forum is far from motivating, but for me I've always considered the majority of their pejorative criticisms to be little more than an attempt at sounding cool. At the end of the day, nothing they say can really damage who I am as a writer because (IMO) it's hard to respect anything but good points over the internet. You can call me anything you want, and claim that my writing is less than poo poo, but it won't faze me until you explain why that conclusion is true. Perhaps it's different because I've had real success in writing, and I've won a variety of contests and scholarships that I can ignore their criticism, but honestly the words from a child face-to-face would have more impact on my self-esteem than long-winded allusions to my worthlessness over the internet. I see, sorry I think your writing is pretty bad. I'm not interested in any of your past or current performance in real life, because they come to moot when what you show have not convinced me that you deserve whatever "prizes" you claim to have been awarded with. I was about to crit your story for last week's TD, but do not expect any from me from now onwards.
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Mar 19, 2014 06:11
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWYCTwGZBm0&feature=youtu.be&t=2m31s
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Mar 19, 2014 06:15
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elfdude posted:words Almost everything I've read of yours has been really, really bad; this just lets me know that it's a waste of time to try to explain why, since you aren't going to take it into account. I actually did a line-by-line for one of your pieces. If that still isn't 'tangible' enough what the hell can I possibly do?
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Mar 19, 2014 06:18
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I love writing, but sometimes it's very hard for me. I love drawing, but sometimes it makes me crazy. But I still keep doing it, and I think about it when I'm not doing it, and I think about how I need to do more. If you really care about something -- like you feel you have ideas that you need to communicate to other people through a story, or you just think about this poo poo in the shower or whatever because you can't not -- then your natural inclination is to want to do it well, but that's not something everyone can just fall into. You don't decide you like the piano, then expect to bang out Mozart's concertos when you first sit down. There's always a gulf between your real vision and what you've created, and that is a struggle. "Making time for writing" is part of the struggle, and I don't think people would worry about it if they didn't genuinely care. This isn't a contest, it's a matter of creativity plus craft, and both of those take effort. Not being complacent is a healthy thing.
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Mar 19, 2014 06:22
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I frequent many of the visual art and writing threads in this forum and I don't know exactly what you are talking about when you mean by pejorative critiques. I mean thunderdome critiques are often pretty aggressive but that is just the flavor of that particular thread. If you don't like that atmosphere there are other threads available for your use. Hell, someone just got banned in the daily drawing thread because they decided to throw a bunch of disparaging comments at someone for their work without making any critiques of substance. Maybe you didn't get the critiques you want but people do get honest critiques based on their experiences and how they view your work. I know I've done at least one line by line critique for you myself in which I tried to be encouraging and point out what I saw as flaws the best I could. As far as the rest goes, we cant define what art is for you, but you cant define what art is for us either. That is a very personal and individual thing. A lot of us care about technical mastery, myself included though I have a long way to go. I just don't want a lack of technical skills to hold me back from telling the stories I want to tell. Art is communication, and while not every part of it is objective, some parts are. This is true for drawing, writing, and probably everything else. If you want to be the best you can be, because you care about that sort of thing, that involves pushing oneself, that involves doing work. There is nothing wrong with your views on art Elfdude but you should know better than to belittle other people's views just because they differ from yours. That doesn't mean they don't love art any less, or that your view is somehow more pure. To say it is a sad world because people think differently, is just really narrow minded.
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Mar 19, 2014 06:52
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The Saddest Rhino posted:I see, sorry I think your writing is pretty bad. I'm not interested in any of your past or current performance in real life, because they come to moot when what you show have not convinced me that you deserve whatever "prizes" you claim to have been awarded with. That's an interesting conclusion to come away from what I said. I said the majority of pejorative criticisms. Pejorative, being the key word there. Which is to say, the insulting part of the criticisms. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of value in the insulting criticisms, but the value isn't the insults but rather the good points they make. Which is to say, the point of what I said was to delineate the personal attacks from the professional criticism and encourage others not to take the personal attacks to heart. Value the professional criticism for what it is. If it makes you mad that I'm unfazed when someone calls me stupid, then all I can do is shrug and move on, although I will point out I think you've mistaken what my meaning was there. God Over Djinn posted:Almost everything I've read of yours has been really, really bad; this just lets me know that it's a waste of time to try to explain why, since you aren't going to take it into account. I'm confused how you are being directly addressed by the qualifiers I used purposely in my description there. I said specifically that badmouthing me, insulting me, calling me stupid, all of that pejorative bluster will not have any affect on who I am or my desire to continue writing. I did not say criticism wasn't valued, or taken to heart. In fact I would state that your line by line criticism is exactly the type referenced by my statement of, 'it's hard to respect anything but good points over the internet'. If you didn't consider your criticism to be making good points then I can see your complaints, but from my perspective the vast majority of criticism I've received on this forum has been gold wrapped in personal attacks. The point of what I was saying was to isolate the gold, the things you can act on, and ignore the insulting assumptions about your personal identity. I'm surprised there's anyone who disagree with that. Crisco Kid posted:I love writing, but sometimes it's very hard for me. I love drawing, but sometimes it makes me crazy. But I still keep doing it, and I think about it when I'm not doing it, and I think about how I need to do more. Right, and writing does make me crazy and even frustrates me. I'd never assert you shouldn't improve your skill at writing, however if you can't prioritize your writing because of X Y Z then that immediately implies that X Y Z are more important than your writing. My point was not to force yourself to do what you don't want to do, desiring mastery of your craft is only valuable if you enjoy the craft itself. JuniperCake posted:I frequent many of the visual art and writing threads in this forum and I don't know exactly what you are talking about when you mean by pejorative critiques. I mean thunderdome critiques are often pretty aggressive but that is just the flavor of that particular thread. Ok, so on one hand you seem to understand exactly what I'm talking about. The thunderdome style criticism has become part of several personalities on this forum. Regardless I've never seen a criticism which didn't contain a nugget of gold. My point was separating the personal from the useful. What is useful is what you can act on, what is personal is assumptions about you as a person. You can be told you're a bad writer all day and it will never ever help you. On the other hand if you're told, "you're a bad writer because [insert criticism here]" you can and should ignore the assertion that you're a bad writer and act on the valid criticism. JuniperCake posted:If you don't like that atmosphere there are other threads available for your use. Hell, someone just got banned in the daily drawing thread because they decided to throw a bunch of disparaging comments at someone for their work without making any critiques of substance. Maybe you didn't get the critiques you want but people do get honest critiques based on their experiences and how they view your work. I know I've done at least one line by line critique for you myself in which I tried to be encouraging and point out what I saw as flaws the best I could. We're going off on a tangent that is irrelevant to what I said. I particularly love criticism even disparaging ones. Your criticisms have been very helpful. On the other hand, I can see how the previous posters have come away after posting snippets of their writing as disheartened and disillusioned. My point was that you have to separate your personal self-esteem from it or you can never hone your craft. JuniperCake posted:As far as the rest goes, we cant define what art is for you, but you cant define what art is for us either. That is a very personal and individual thing. A lot of us care about technical maastery, myself included though I have a long way to go. I just don't want a lack of technical skills to hold me back from telling the stories I want to tell. Art is communication, and while not every part of it is objective, some parts are. This is true for drawing, writing, and probably everything else. If you want to be the best you can be, because you care about that sort of thing, that involves pushing oneself, that involves doing work. I don't disagree with any of this. JuniperCake posted:There is nothing wrong with your views on art Elfdude but you should know better than to belittle other people's views just because they differ from yours. That doesn't mean they don't love art any less, or that your view is somehow more pure. To say it is a sad world because people think differently, is just really narrow minded. I'm curious how I belittled other's views. elfdude fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 06:54
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