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elfdude posted:That's an interesting conclusion to come away from what I said. I said the majority of pejorative criticisms. Pejorative being the key word their. Which is to say the insulting part of the criticisms. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of value in the insulting criticisms, but the value isn't the insults but rather the good points they make. I think you are ungrateful for people's criticism. I see you have not bothered to apologise for offending me, whether intended or not. So my point still stands. I would be willing to believe you are just merely bad at expressing your points (much like you are bad in doing so in your fiction), but at this juncture I'm not impressed of your constant need to express how you have won essay competitions, and that all the negative criticism will be something for you to ignore. Unless I'm convinced otherwise, I do not see the point of criticising your writing at all. Good luck in being good in everything you claim you do. The Saddest Rhino fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 06:59
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elfdude posted:Maybe I'm unique in this, but I find it absolutely impossible to get enough criticism, and will even bait it if I need to. Don't get me wrong, the tone of the writers on this forum is far from motivating, but for me I've always considered the majority of their pejorative criticisms to be little more than an attempt at sounding cool. So you like getting honest criticism as long as it says what you want to hear? Hm. e: quote:That's an interesting conclusion to come away from what I said. I said the majority of pejorative criticisms. Pejorative, being the key word there. Which is to say, the insulting part of the criticisms. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of value in the insulting criticisms, but the value isn't the insults but rather the good points they make. Eh, ok - you just expressed yourself badly then. Of the crits I've read round here, maybe 1 in 20 is lacking in any substance. The rage is just for flavour and for the amusement of the spectators. vv yeah, we cool. thanks for clearing it up. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 07:21
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The Saddest Rhino posted:I think you are ungrateful for people's criticism. I see you have not bothered to apologise for offending me, whether intended or not. I'm sorry. Honestly, I wouldn't have bothered responding or offering clarification if I wasn't. I am not ungrateful, and I make it a point to thank those who offer me critiques always. The Saddest Rhino posted:So my point still stands. I would be willing to believe you are just merely bad at expressing your points (much like you are bad in doing so in your fiction), but at this juncture I'm not impressed of your constant need to express how you have won essay competitions, and that all the negative criticism will be something for you to ignore. Unless I'm convinced otherwise, I do not see the point of criticising your writing at all. Good luck in being good in everything you claim you do. I'm torn, on one hand I know these statements are coming from a place of offense, I mean no disrespect when I don't fall into a deep depression over them. The point in expressing what I have won was to offer a reason why I can separate the two types of criticism. As such we'll take this reply of yours and use it as an example. what I mean posted:I think you are ungrateful for people's criticism. Thank you for pointing this out, as it is something I can act on I see you have not bothered to apologise for offending me It wasn't clear that I had offended you, I got a snarky reply from you about something I said and a statement that you wouldn't be bothered to critique my work. I don't know who you are and I have no way to tell if that's in your character, or what part of my message in particular bothered you. I'm not at all bothered by the fact you don't care about my successes, why would you? I do apologize for offending you because that was neither my desire nor intention, whether intended or not.Why would I apologize for offending you if that was my intent? So my point still stands. Which point was that? That you're not going to critique my work? I would be willing to believe you are just merely bad at expressing your points That would be a justified conclusion(much like you are bad in doing so in your fiction) pointless insult but whatever, but at this juncture I'm not impressed of your constant need to express how you have won essay competitions Constant need? I've made precious few posts in this forum. In hindsight I can see I look like a braggart but bragging about winning writing contests is... a bit pointless. If I wanted validation I would go to my mother., and that all the negative criticism will be something for you to ignore That's an interesting take home message which is explicitly at odds with what I said. Unless I'm convinced otherwise, I do not see the point of criticising your writing at all. I don't think there's necessarily a point to criticising or writing whatsoever other than the one defined to yourself. If you thought writing a critique was worthwhile to help improve my skill then either you're being charitable (because clearly my writing sucks), or you see nuggets that could be polished, or it benefits you somehow. Good luck in being good in everything you claim you do.Thank you. Maybe that'll help clarify my thoughts. sebmojo posted:So you like getting honest criticism as long as it says what you want to hear? Eh, I can't deny that if it says what I want to hear I'd like it by definition. However, the point was that I like getting honest criticism as long as it contains something that can be acted upon. For example, in a line by line crit I recieved a crit that this verb sucks. That is useful because I can identify that verb sucks. On the other hand if I am told this story is execrable then that is not.
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Mar 19, 2014 07:26
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elfdude posted:Eh, I can't deny that if it says what I want to hear I'd like it by definition. However, the point was that I like getting honest criticism as long as it contains something that can be acted upon. For example, in a line by line crit I recieved a crit that this verb sucks. That is useful because I can identify that verb sucks. On the other hand if I am told this story is execrable then that is not. So you want crits that let you maintain the basic structure of your story and change single words on demand to make it 'better', and you don't want crits that ask you to reconsider your ideas of what content, structure, plot, character, etc. works. Speaking as someone who has the 'words' thing down and is struggling horribly with the 'plot' and 'characters' thing, advice about the second one is a lot harder to implement but also a lot more valuable.
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Mar 19, 2014 07:31
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God Over Djinn posted:So you want crits that let you maintain the basic structure of your story and change single words on demand to make it 'better' That's an extreme stretch from what I said, but I used an example so perhaps I should've been weary of that. I've also received critiques that there's no plot here. That is useful because I can act on a plot. I've also received critiques that this entire paragraph should be cut, or that it should be rewritten. Those are also useful because again, tangible actionable items. On the other hand telling me that I suck as a writer offers me no clear steps to improve. You might as well tell me to go back to school or replace my brain. It's just as helpful. I can understand and learn plot, I can learn punctuation, I can learn description and I can see how to improve these when the issues are identified. These are things which I rely upon the expertise or simply the opinion of the editor to improve on, because they aren't always obvious to me. I do think it's silly to tell someone well your story is poo poo just burn it and move on because that doesn't help them either regardless if it's true. God Over Djinn posted:and you don't want crits that ask you to reconsider your ideas of what content, structure, plot, character, etc. works. Full stop, not what I said. God Over Djinn posted:Speaking as someone who has the 'words' thing down and is struggling horribly with the 'plot' and 'characters' thing, advice about the second one is a lot harder to implement but also a lot more valuable. I'd agree with this. elfdude fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 07:37
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elfdude posted:That's an extreme stretch from what I said, but I used an example so perhaps I should've been wary of that. I've also received critiques Snarky line edits aside, I've got some sympathy; but what the 'you suck' comments give you is a benchmark of quality. If you keep writing you will start to get them less and less. The 'tangible, actionable' thing you get from them is that you need to choose your words more carefully, proofread more carefully, think more carefully, feel more carefully.
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Mar 19, 2014 07:46
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elfdude posted:
After reading your conversations with others, I think you may have communicated things in your original post that you didn't intend. I originally read your post as a universal condemnation of the critiques you've received here. Given the reaction your post received, I don't think I was the only one who interpreted it that way. When you paint in broad strokes, sometimes you hit targets you didn't mean to hit. I imagine the crux of your point is that actionable advice is good, and insults are worthless. I agree, and you should have just said that. As far as belittling goes, I was referring specifically to this comment: "It seems like a sad world to me in which something which is fun, is instead seen as a burden, or as work" which sounded like you were taking people to task for being too serious about their craft and working too hard at it. I don't think it's cool to criticize people for their passion, so I took offense to the comment. I don't think that was what you intended but that was how it came across. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 08:34
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This is a really simplistic question that I know has been asked before, but: When do you come up with your titles? How do you come up with them? Okay, so it's actually two questions. The title thing is bothering me a lot because I feel like at this point I should have a name to call these things I'm working on.
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Mar 19, 2014 08:59
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Elfdude, take from the following post what you will, but know that I'm not going to go back and forth with you. You've already wasted everyone else's time as it is. elfdude posted:On the other hand telling me that I suck as a writer offers me no clear steps to improve. You might as well tell me to go back to school or replace my brain. I read a few of your stories and found them to be of very poor quality. You have received critiques with great advice on how to improve, and your time would be better spent in applying these suggestions, as it does you no good to spend so much time here informing us of how difficult it is to offend you because of your many accomplishments. I will not tell you to go back to school, and I will not tell you to replace your brain--but I will tell you that your writing is weak and ineffectual; this is not a judgment of you as a person, but rather of your ability as a writer. From what you have posted here, your biggest flaw--in addition to what you've already been told by others--is your usage of flimsy rhetoric. It is difficult to parse what you mean to say, because you employ a pretentious and mannered style that doesn't say anything. The disease present in your writing has no more visible symptom than the following four words (taken from your last post): elfdude posted:I'd agree with this. You would agree with it? Based on what? Do you or don't you agree? What is wrong with saying "I agree with this"? Do you understand how flimsy and obnoxious this is? Your posts and stories are littered with this, and readers do not take kindly to unclear authors, especially those overmuch in love with meaningless words. elfdude posted:I would agree with you. elfdude posted:I suppose if I had to characterize how he hates himself I would say it'd be a sense of not valuing himself. elfdude posted:Yeah, I would agree with that. I would attribute nearly all of my grammar understanding to reading. There are ten more examples of this annoying tic from this thread alone. As JuniperCakes and many others have noted, you say things you don't intend, and fail to say things you apparently meant to say. That is the output of weak rhetoric, of flabby sentences stuffed to the brim with a great deal of nothing. Know what you want to say, and then write something plain. Use simple, declarative sentences. Learn to talk before you try to sing.
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Mar 19, 2014 09:08
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I love you seb. Thanks for making those critiques, particularly in the case of, weary vs. wary and this as an. It lead me down a great path of research on word usage. It's important to point out that I love the criticism I receive here, precisely because it goes deeper than the meaningless laurels I've received from others. For me at least, it's irritating when I ask someone for advice, and they patronize me. I think the knowledge of writers on this board is far beyond a typical person, and truly receiving negative criticism has reinvigorated my desire to write. Juniper, I guess my point was more of a personal perception. For me I see work as something I need to do to accomplish a goal, taking a shower, filing my taxes, etc. Things which inherently require energy, and produce stress. I can spend hours upon hours writing, researching, and learning new techniques. It isn't work to me, it's fun. I do feel stress about my writing, but it's a different type of stress I suppose. I'm reaching here with my ability to describe what I mean, but I hope that's a better way of describing it. I'll continue working on making my points more succinct. Wow. I had no idea that in particular was annoying. It's actually difficult to change that for me, because it's literally how I think. I usually start by asking myself, "Would I agree with this?" and then I come away saying, "Yes, I would." That's an example of something I've never heard before, and had you not pointed it out it would never change. I need to think on the implications for awhile before I will know how to change it. elfdude fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 09:14
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:This is a really simplistic question that I know has been asked before, but: I love me a good title. For short stories I try and have something that has at least two meanings in the context of the story. Preferably one before you read it, and one equally good after you read it. So Method is a ref to the scientific method and 'there's method in his madness' from Hamlet; neither meaning is particularly interesting by themselves but together they make a nice tension. I'll normally get the title about halfway through the story by thinking about the thematic elements that make it up and seeing if one sticks out and can be tied to a nice sounding phrase.
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Mar 19, 2014 09:29
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elfdude posted:For me I see work as something I need to do to accomplish a goal, taking a shower, filing my taxes, etc. Things which inherently require energy, and produce stress. It seems like a sad world to me in which something as relaxing as taking a shower, is instead seen as a burden, or as work. I can't help but feel that if you view showering in this light, that your efforts are pointless. So you become clean, so what? So you use soap, so what? So you can save time by using a two-in-one shampoo/conditioner, so what? Where's the satisfaction in that? What's the point? Maybe I'm too much of an idealist, but it seems to me that if you're stressing out over a shower, then odds are you don't care about it, and if you don't care about it spend your time on something else. It's a problem of prioritization and what you value. Do you have trouble finding time to type giant posts on the internet? I don't. The concept is the same for me. BATHS THOUGH, now those are really hard.
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Mar 19, 2014 09:38
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:This is a really simplistic question that I know has been asked before, but: Usually last. Unless I get STRUCK BY INSPIRATION part way through writing the story. (This doesn't generally happen to me.) I usually try to make up a terrible pun or similar literary thingie relating to the story.
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Mar 19, 2014 10:25
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:When do you come up with your titles? quote:How do you come up with them? Well, now that I think about it, EATING CHILDHOOD is a loving boss title, and I want to write a story about that. Coming up with titles is fun. It's a great exercise at being concise as possible: you're boiling your entire story idea down into 1 to 5 words. Plus, I like tossing around different title ideas in my head. It's like coming up with a band name, but one you only have to live with for the duration of your story.
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Mar 19, 2014 13:18
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:This is a really simplistic question that I know has been asked before, but: CB_Tube_Knight posted:How do you come up with them?
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Mar 19, 2014 14:35
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Double meanings are the go-to answer, but I try and avoid them since they can sound a bit consciously pithy at times. They play to the form a little too well. Sometimes, I just think of a phrase that just sounds a bit weird - something that if I saw it, I'd have to read on*. A title is also an ad for the story, remember. *You Will Not Believe What This Little Girl Did For A Disabled War Vet
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Mar 19, 2014 15:10
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:When do you come up with your titles? It's probably some weird mental thing, but I always go into a story with a title. It's usually generic and boring, but still manages to capture the overall spirit of the piece and allows me to give the project a name. Giving it a name makes it feel like a real, tangible thing to me and somehow allows my brain the freedom to construct the narrative. Now, more often than not, a better title presents itself over the course of writing the story and the initial title gets scrapped. This is fine because I don't get emotionally attached to that first title, I just need it at the beginning to start the story. For example, I may have started off calling this post "The Title Post" but by the end decide to change it to "Cpt. Gandhi's Completely Psychotic Title-Making Theory That May Or May Not Assist CB_Tube_Knight." e: To put it more concisely, I choose a title when I start a story, but don't choose the title until I'm done. Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 15:48
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elfdude posted:Wow. I had no idea that in particular was annoying. It's not annoying - it's bad writing. But anyway, in the previous argument, you offended people. You claim they misunderstood you. Even if that were true, and you weren't pretty much taking back what you earlier wrote, it's not the reader's fault if they misunderstand you. Your task as a writer is to convey your meaning effectively - something you're not doing. Think about what you want to say. Then write it clearly and concisely. Don't add meaningless words and phrases. Instead, use words that best communicate what you want to say. I'm not trying to be snarky here, but you need to think before you write. A short example from your previous post: elfdude posted:It's important to point out that I love the criticism I receive here, precisely because it goes deeper than the meaningless laurels I've received from others "It's important to point out that I love the criticism..." It's tedious and frustrating to read through text where only half of the words have any real meaning. These kinds of empty words and phrases only obscure your meaning. Why not "I love the criticism?" " ...it goes deeper than the meaningless laurels I've received from others." So everyone, except the people on this forum, praises you work? What's your point? If you win a contest, it doesn't make me reconsider the quality of your work, it'll make me doubt the skill of the judges. That aside, bragging is annoying, and even offensive. A while back you wrote something about how you can churn out meaningless poetry that leaves people awed and clapping. Don't you understand that by saying this, you imply that poetry is meaningless? And that by implying it, you offend those who take it seriously and put thought and hard work into it? I have the feeling you don't think about what you want to say when you write. You add meaningless words and phrases, imply things I'm not sure you want to imply. You try to make your writing flow, you try to vary your vocabulary - but you often do so at the expense of effective communication. I suggest you read Orwell's essay on Politics and the English Language. It's old, and I don't agree with everything (Saxon words preferred over Latin ones for example), but he does make excellent points. And following his advice won't make you a worse writer. Here's a link. Having read through what I wrote, I realised I'm pretty much repeating what Chillmatic said. Anyway, I'm not trying to pick on you - I'm just trying to help you out since you seem confused as to why people give you negative feedback / get offended by what you say.
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Mar 19, 2014 16:14
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quote:I don't think there's necessarily a point to criticising or writing whatsoever other than the one defined to yourself. If you thought writing a critique was worthwhile to help improve my skill then either you're being charitable (because clearly my writing sucks), or you see nuggets that could be polished, or it benefits you somehow. OK, the others have pointed it out but it's your absolute inability to communicate simply or concisely which is a problem. You see what you did up there? It's pretty easy for me to take away the message "you're implying I only do critiques for strangers on the Internet for some kind of ulterior motive where it benefits me somehow???" Here's another point: quote:much like you are bad in doing so in your fiction) pointless insult but whatever You're trying to apologise to me in the same post where you attack me for being "pointlessly insulting" and then condescend on me for having an "interesting take" on your words. Do you even think about what you write? And this can be read as way more insulting than the others: quote:I don't know who you are and I have no way to tell if that's in your character, Because you're telling this to the person who judged and criticised TWO of your stories in TD (one of them a line-by-line crit), who's now pissed because he interpreted your words as you being unappreciative of his efforts. And you saying this can be interpreted as "I didn't bother figuring out who you are, even though you said something as drastic as 'I don't want to bother helping you anymore with your writing.' in response to my statement." Ultimately I know you are trying to say "I don't know you that well and cannot tell how you think and feel" but it required me to exercise some brains gymnastics and not look at it emotionally. Also I don't know why you bothered saying you thank everyone who helped offer critiques because I sure never got any when I did them. You managed to dig yourself a bigger hole each time you responded to me through all these kinds of stupid errors. In one of my crits I told you to stop with the purple prose bullshit and figure out how to write in simple, plain language (and I recommended Hemingway and specifically pointed out I do not care if you don't like his writing). Actually apply that seriously and maybe you'll improve your comprehension and communication. The Saddest Rhino fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 16:54
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I'm pretty much only using this emoticon from now on, so you'll just have to infer my meaning when I post.
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Mar 19, 2014 17:12
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Imagine if emoticons had been around when Hemmingway was writing. He would have loved them.
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Mar 19, 2014 17:14
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mostly this one tho 
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Mar 19, 2014 17:22
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Hemmingway would have loving loved  Too bad we don't have a six-toed-cat emote.
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Mar 19, 2014 18:29
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I guess I felt like everyone had their titles all worked up and ready when they start. I think I might have to go back through when I edit and look for something that ties the themes together or even some phrase that encompasses the main idea of the story.
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Mar 19, 2014 23:58
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:I guess I felt like everyone had their titles all worked up and ready when they start. I think I might have to go back through when I edit and look for something that ties the themes together or even some phrase that encompasses the main idea of the story. It's mainly about finding a technique that works for you. Flick through the dome archive and click on the titles that grab you, then see which ones are even better when you've read the story.
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Mar 20, 2014 00:24
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New business: Titles I mean, a 'working title' is a thing for a reason. I tend to use something evocative of the setting, theme, or intention of my story. After I'm done writing, I try to figure out what is the most eye-catching, for lack of a better word, to potential readers. Sometimes I miss the mark. Sometimes the title fairy visits me in my sleep and I know what a story will be called before I type the first word. I don't think the title-magicianry works the same for any two stories, TBH. Old business: I would like to say a thing about crits and what attitude to have when you are giving/receiving a crit. This is more for the benefit of anyone lurking the thread, I think, than anyone participating in the conversation. Sorry for being late on this, the airport wifi pooped out right as I was hitting submit, but I am ignoring that cosmic hint to not post! Elfdude, you said some stuff that got jumped all over, and while I'm inclined to sympathize with my colleagues here in this thread, it does suck to get dog piled on. But so okay, the thing about critique is that as much as we say don't take it personally, at the end of the day it is still you. Your words, your worlds, your ideas. And right now people are giving you a lot of poo poo because your ideas, even in a discussion thread, aren't translating. I think I can explain a bit why people picked up on the "I would..." and "It's important to point out..." tics. I think you are afraid of what you have to say. Your waffling around in this thread, bloating what you're trying to say with non-committal neutralizing statements, shows that either you aren't sure of yourself or you don't really know what you're trying to get across. Actually, this is probably some of the most valuable critique for your writing you could ask for; it's a critique of your fundamental ability to communicate. Like, I'm working on a novel with a 1st person narrator. So the reader is pretty deep in her head all of the time. And week after week, I was getting critiques that my character lacked agency, was just being carried along by crazy plot events and not really contributing to the story. Meanwhile, (without getting too TMI), my therapist was telling me basically the exact same thing about my life. I realized that I couldn't write an effective character unless I could be a more effective person. This isn't true in all cases; lots of hosed up people have sold millions of novels. But for people like you and me, sometimes our uncertainty, or passivity (I'm going off of your writing/posting because I don't know you, obvs) are an obstacle. So when you get crits on those things, on some level it's going to be really uncomfortable because writing is so often an exercise in contending with who you are as a person. Mostly what I want to say though is that the people who do the majority of crits for TD/CC are genuinely cool people who actually want everyone in this forum to succeed (I don't mean me, I hate/am terrible at crits). There is literally no gain in any of it, except for maybe crits are a good exercise? At the end of the day none of us really WANT to fly into a visceral rage over internet forums fiction. No one wants to get huffy over a discussion thread. But Rhino, Mojo, Dr. K and many others have put a ton of hours into trying to help people, because in a perfect world we would all be great writers and would be posting from our respective yachts/jets. I've read your writing, E-Dude. You're not the worst I've seen, but it's messy and frenetic in some places and passive and vague in others, and I suspect it's not because you lack understanding of mechanics. I'm pretty sure you are capable of identifying good writing when you see it. So it's really telling when people react with anger and confusion to things you say, yeah? Also nice crits are the devil, I won a few TD rounds and have 0(zero) publications to my name. A cautionary tale, no?
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Mar 20, 2014 01:14
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Re titles: don't sweat it too much. Publishers tend to veto author titles anyway, so it's only really a relevant skill in amateur (read: non paying) places like the dome.
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Mar 20, 2014 05:21
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Re titles: don't sweat it too much. Publishers tend to veto author titles anyway, so it's only really a relevant skill in amateur (read: non paying) places like the dome. What? I have never in all my pro sales had a title veto'd, and only once did the editor even ask me to consider changing it (he thought the reference I used was too obscure).
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Mar 20, 2014 07:11
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crabrock posted:And criticism is just a thing that happens now. I don't even care anymore. Hell, at one point you start wanting that poo poo like literary crack. CB_Tube_Knight posted:I guess I felt like everyone had their titles all worked up and ready when they start. I think I might have to go back through when I edit and look for something that ties the themes together or even some phrase that encompasses the main idea of the story. Like sebmojo said, find out what works for you. This ain't English 101, there aren't any rules apart from 1: Don't suck 2: Don't be creepy And even then #2 can be waived if you do it right.
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Mar 20, 2014 07:32
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Re titles: don't sweat it too much. Publishers tend to veto author titles anyway, so it's only really a relevant skill in amateur (read: non paying) places like the dome. Well this is actually meant to be self published. It kind of makes me worry more.
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Mar 20, 2014 08:54
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General Battuta posted:What? I have never in all my pro sales had a title veto'd, and only once did the editor even ask me to consider changing it (he thought the reference I used was too obscure).  "that's what American audiences want" . This is talking about novels, not short fiction.
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Mar 20, 2014 10:46
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That was probably Charles Stross.
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Mar 20, 2014 15:53
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Does anyone else get self conscious when they write crits? I have a hard time telling when my crits are helpful, and I'm always afraid I come across poorly. I also have a hard time writing crits here because I would normally point out what I like as much as/more than what I don't like. That's not me trying to be nice; that's how I've learned to teach tasks. Here there seems to be an emphasis on pointing out the weak points in a piece of writing. I totally see why that's useful, but I find myself struggling with it.
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Mar 21, 2014 00:47
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Anathema Device posted:Does anyone else get self conscious when they write crits? I have a hard time telling when my crits are helpful, and I'm always afraid I come across poorly. That said you're not going to lose cool kid points by being nice. However, if you want to focus on the positive you need to be as specific as possible; not 'I like this' but exactly what and why you like it, preferably in contrast to other stuff you like less. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 01:20
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I think the key to a good critique is to respond as a reader and not as a writer. I'm generalizing like a motherfucker here, but as writers, we tend to look more at the weave instead of the cloth. We have the vocabulary to talk about specific novelties in writing that work well (eg metonymy, anaphora, chiasmus, all that bullshit), but in doing so we run the risk of becoming myopic. This isn't always a bad thing, but you have to remember that most readers read for the same reason they watch television or play video games--entertainment--and they care more about good story and good character than they do about the little lyrical tricks writers use. To put it another way: I've always found comments about character and plot far more important than line critiques, and I know I've written something good when people forget about the language and talk to me about the story and the people in it. So to answer your question: I personally don't get self-conscious, but I also don't go out of my way to be a dick. If I don't like something, it's because I found my interest in the story flagging, and that's generally a result of larger issues like poor characterization and not smaller issues like adjectives and adverbs. So when I give critiques (and I give them around sixty times a semester, so I don't have the time to be as thorough as I'd like), I focus on the things that help keep the stories compelling, and that's the kind of advice you really can't be an rear end while talking about. Asbury fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 01:41
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Anathema Device posted:Does anyone else get self conscious when they write crits? I have a hard time telling when my crits are helpful, and I'm always afraid I come across poorly. Do you catch yourself suggesting how things should be? Not the micro stuff (grammar, punctuation) but the macro (characterization, plot) stuff? Are you suggesting a different ending or something? Because that's stepping over a line as a critter (critique-giver? crit person?). You shouldn't do that unless you're an editor (and even then, with care). I have a friend who does that, and we had to tell him to back off a little because he was already going into "this is how the story should be, as how I would like and write it". That, and we don't ask crits from him anymore.
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Mar 21, 2014 02:38
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Anathema Device posted:I also have a hard time writing crits here because I would normally point out what I like as much as/more than what I don't like. That's not me trying to be nice; that's how I've learned to teach tasks. Here there seems to be an emphasis on pointing out the weak points in a piece of writing. I totally see why that's useful, but I find myself struggling with it. I find this kind of crit useful, because it's often just as hard to be objective about what you're succeeding at as what you're failing at, or at least it is for me because I tend to be extremely harsh on myself. If there was a contest for who could be most negative toward my work, most times I would win. For people with sensitive feelings, the "sandwich" method works to soften the blow, but for others it can still be as helpful to know what to keep doing as it is to know what to stop or adjust. Mostly, be honest. Don't get caught up in your tone or delivery method -- the focus should be constructive criticism. Constructive. Not hug boxes or elaborate insults devised to display your own wit, but your reaction to a work and how it might be improved. What that means will change for each piece. Basically, give the kind of critiques you'd like to recieve.
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Mar 21, 2014 03:10
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To add to this: I'm not just into crits because I want to be a better writer. Obviously I do, but what I really relish is the potential to have a conversation about whatever my reader sparks to. That goes for whether the critiques are positive or negative: I recently got feedback on a romance piece, and the reader thought my male lead was too much of a simpering, whiny douche. Me: Well, that's the beginning of his arc. He's supposed to be that way. Reader: Right, but there's "This guy's balls haven't dropped yet" and then there's "The world needs a lot loving fewer of you." And THEN there's [my character]. Me: Wow, poo poo. At what points did you feel like you wanted to strangle him? Reader: Well, [-a-], then there's [-b-], and of course [-c-]. Me: Well, [-c-] is intentional, I wanted to communicate blah blah blah... Reader: I see, but you overshot and so it's yadda yadda yadda... And even though that's months of hard work and writing from a certain mindset getting shredded (well, I suppose you can't call the above getting shredded, but you know what I mean), I get off on conversations like that because I'm connecting with my reader, learning a little more about him/her, and I'm learning a little something about human nature and how we perceive others. I can't speak for all writers, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who loves that poo poo and gets pumped from conversations like that, positive or negative. Might be something to keep in mind, assuming I'm not a freak of nature.
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Mar 21, 2014 04:30
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DivisionPost posted:To add to this: I'm not just into crits because I want to be a better writer. Obviously I do, but what I really relish is the potential to have a conversation about whatever my reader sparks to. That goes for whether the critiques are positive or negative: I recently got feedback on a romance piece, and the reader thought my male lead was too much of a simpering, whiny douche. I don't think that the problem people have is simply to do with negative criticism. That's to be expected. When I've posted on other forums, I won't name names, the idea of the crit sections seems to be don't even discuss what it is that the person has said to you is wrong. You're to accept it and move on without any protest. That's not a back and forth. Another issue I've seen come up is people who seem to be out to just put others down for their writing rather than help them get better. Sure there might be a point where someone isn't cut out to be a writer, but I think this venue lends itself to people being overly insulting when dealing with others. It's funny to a point, but when it happens because the person is trying harder to be insulting or funny than they are trying to be truthful there's an issue. I haven't really had much crit experience here in either direction. But I can see how some people might view internet criticism that way.
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Mar 21, 2014 05:45
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:I don't think that the problem people have is simply to do with negative criticism. That's to be expected. Not discussing feedback you've received is an excellent rule imo. Mainly because you always feel like saying NO BUT DON'T YOU SEE and it actually doesn't matter. What your critter read is what they read and its up to you to either ignore their response (if it's pure vitriol, which is actually very rare in CC) or internalise it and learn whatever lessons it has to teach you. If they otherwise seem smart but they still missed that thing you thought was BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS OMG then you should be open to the possibility that you need to rethink your presentation.
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Mar 21, 2014 06:59
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