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Torquemadras posted:At least, I believe that's what Tyrion figures during the Purple Wedding, since he remembers Robert saying that. We never get any more insight on that particular incident. Really fits with Joffrey's character, though. That was Jaime when Cersei recounts their trip to Winterfell in AFFC. Tyrion figured it out when giving gifts for the wedding when Joffrey announces he's no stranger to Valyrian Steel. I'm going to be sad to see Gleeson go.
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Mar 20, 2014 00:03
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jsoh posted:Robert didn't start the war. Didn't he (originally) go on a campaign to get some sweet sweet revenge after the Mad King killed some of Ned's family? Maybe he didn't start it, but he was one of the driving forces, especially with the kidnapping of Lyanna more or less getting Robert started with the whole thing?
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Mar 20, 2014 00:16
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radlum posted:I hope this means we'll get the showrunners or someone else from HBO to say that it's seven seasons and it's over and GRRM has no say in it. George's delusions will not be stymied by reality
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Mar 20, 2014 00:20
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KKKLIP ART posted:Didn't he (originally) go on a campaign to get some sweet sweet revenge after the Mad King killed some of Ned's family? Maybe he didn't start it, but he was one of the driving forces, especially with the kidnapping of Lyanna more or less getting Robert started with the whole thing? The Mad King tried to get Jon Arryn to hand over Ned and Robert, that was what set off the war. So if they were gonna start a war for vengeance, he didn't give them the chance.
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Mar 20, 2014 00:25
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KKKLIP ART posted:Didn't he (originally) go on a campaign to get some sweet sweet revenge after the Mad King killed some of Ned's family? Maybe he didn't start it, but he was one of the driving forces, especially with the kidnapping of Lyanna more or less getting Robert started with the whole thing? Executing the Starks and saying rude things to Jon Arryn started the war.
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Mar 20, 2014 00:33
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KKKLIP ART posted:Didn't he (originally) go on a campaign to get some sweet sweet revenge after the Mad King killed some of Ned's family? Maybe he didn't start it, but he was one of the driving forces, especially with the kidnapping of Lyanna more or less getting Robert started with the whole thing? There's pretty much no doubt Robert, in his pride, might've tried what Brandon Stark tried, but he had Ned and Jon on hand so there's at least some question of restraint and maybe talking things out. Regardless, he didn't even get the chance since Aerys demanded Jon send Ned and Robert to him and considering what he'd just done to Brandon and Rickard nobody was about to trust the guy. There's some complexity to the whole situation in Robert's Rebellion, but it's hard to fault Ned, Robert and Jon for doing what they did. For them it was basically do-or-die. The real tragedy is that Aerys was as nuts as he was and Rhaegar as tactless and obsessive, since they brought about the suffering of so many others. A sane and fair king would've been able to sort out the whole Lyanna affair, and a sane prince wouldn't have put the realm in such a precarious position chasing either love or prophecy. The Southron Ambitions theory is brought up from time to time, but that's a plot whose motivation partly stemmed from how legitimately crazy Aerys really was, not to mention the only way it really factored was House Stark, Arryn and Baratheon were willing to throw in together from the start.
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Mar 20, 2014 00:39
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Aerys actually demanded that Jon Arryn send him Ned and Robert's heads, it's actually Jon Arryn who declared open rebellion. If you buy into the 'Southron Ambitions' fan-theory Jon, Hoster Tully and Rickard Stark were planning to make a move against Aerys for a while, whether it was a full out rebellion or not is not clear but they were probably scheming to form a strong alliance between their houses and the Baratheons (as Robert was already head of house Baratheon at the time) and be less than completely loyal to the iron throne.
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Mar 20, 2014 00:50
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Dolash posted:There's pretty much no doubt Robert, in his pride, might've tried what Brandon Stark tried, but he had Ned and Jon on hand so there's at least some question of restraint and maybe talking things out. Regardless, he didn't even get the chance since Aerys demanded Jon send Ned and Robert to him and considering what he'd just done to Brandon and Rickard nobody was about to trust the guy. There's some complexity to the whole situation in Robert's Rebellion, but it's hard to fault Ned, Robert and Jon for doing what they did. For them it was basically do-or-die. I like the Southron Ambitions theory. I don't know if I buy it, but it's one of the more political ones that could (while potentially being a crazy conspiracy theory) hold some weight and be a good story. The North and other kingdoms wanted to secede and have a return to autonomy, albeit with alliances in place to prolong peace. They saw the weakening of House Targaryen, thought there are no more dragons. So instead of claiming the throne said, gently caress that throne, we want to be the Kings of Winter once again. I don't think Rhaegar was involved, however he might have been thought approachable (on the condition he was smart enough to see the decline of his House). When he absconded with Lyanna, everything changed. Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully never bothered to tell Ned or Robert of these conspiracy plans because, why bother at that point? Especially once Robert was on the throne. Besides, the end of the rebellion brought peace and the promise of a new era. If Rhaegar was involved with the North's idea, then he acted impulsively. He also might have sought out peace instead if meeting Robert on the Trident but was too blinded by prophecy. As we see with Rhaegar's "last words" to Jaime, they could have meant an overthrow of his father, quashing of Robert's Rebellion or maybe something else. We only have the outcome of the Trident and we have few details on that aside from Robert killing Rhaegar and that Ned was there wondering "where is the rest of the Kingsguard." For all we know maybe Rhaegar thought he had a chance to broker a peace with Robert and Ned ... probably primarily Ned through Lyanna and their son.
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Mar 20, 2014 01:55
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radlum posted:I hope this means we'll get the showrunners or someone else from HBO to say that it's seven seasons and it's over and GRRM has no say in it.
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Mar 20, 2014 02:35
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Winds of Winter in 2015. ADOS will become a short story where astronauts are exploring some ice planet that will turn out to be Westeros. "Captain, the terrabots have found what appears to be a mass grave of humanoids near the remains of ice barrier in sector 12. The bodies were strewn atop a sizeable cache of black igneous rock. Shall a send a sample to the science deck for analysis?". "What for?", replied Captain Martin, his cool, grey eyes never leaving the space cervasse board, "It didn't seem to do them any good." Dun dun dun
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Mar 20, 2014 03:23
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It's so hard to tell what's really going on with Martin, but I have to wonder if maybe he really will take the show overtaking his last book poorly. Assuming he manages to get out The Winds of Winter just in time, but with no time to write A Dream of Spring before it airs, he really could just throw his hands in the air and say "screw it, I'm not writing it, you guys get the gist from the show anyway". Or he might make a whole bunch of changes to the ending to differentiate it from the show version, in an effort to make it stand apart. He probably won't, but it'll remain a live possibility. I guess one advantage of the book over the show is if you want to know what happens to all the little characters too small to appear in the TV series.
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Mar 20, 2014 03:33
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CapnAndy posted:If he had any say in it he wouldn't be babbling a mile a minute about all the ways they could slow this thing down, please, guys, slow down, oh gently caress oh gently caress oh gently caress It really is the most hilarious part of this whole thing. As much as I love the books, and want GRRM to finish before the show, just watching this train barrels towards this wreck as GRRM panics and tries to slow it down to buy him more time to lay down the tracks is fascinating and amusing in a schadenfreude-an kind of way.
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Mar 20, 2014 03:40
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At the very least I could see him becoming a bit bitter about it and complaining about the situation in interviews.
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Mar 20, 2014 03:41
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Dolash posted:It's so hard to tell what's really going on with Martin, but I have to wonder if maybe he really will take the show overtaking his last book poorly. Assuming he manages to get out The Winds of Winter just in time, but with no time to write A Dream of Spring before it airs, he really could just throw his hands in the air and say "screw it, I'm not writing it, you guys get the gist from the show anyway". Or he might make a whole bunch of changes to the ending to differentiate it from the show version, in an effort to make it stand apart. He probably won't, but it'll remain a live possibility. It depends on how quickly GRRM wants to tie up some plots. If he wanted to we could have a new ruler on the throne by the end of the next book and a set up whereby the Vale, Dany and co and Aegon/Dorne are the final pieces left standing and that's where it drives to the end. If he wants to keep farting around with a long walk chasing someone down and Asha getting diddled in the back of a carriage by some dude or whatever its going to be long time before he's done. There's a lot in place for him to drive to the end of the series if he's committed to making it coherent, logical and all that. Also something I just realised GRRM is probably going to have to write Tommen getting his head smashed against a wall or something somewhere along the way. I'm guessing if Dorne decides to raise it's banners and go hard for some vengeance with the reach either tied up in the south west with the Iron Islands and in the storm lands there's not a whole lot to stop Dorne marching in, linking up with Aegon and heading off to sack Kings Landing. Especially if Stannis heads down the kings road with whatever Host he gathers. Depending on what happens with the battle in the north.
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Mar 20, 2014 03:50
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As good as it is to see GRRM with a fire under his rear end, just keep in mind that Stephen King wrote the last three Dark Tower books in an almighty hurry and that may not have been the best thing ever. (I still think they're brilliant, but even I know the rush-job is apparent in several places.)
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Mar 20, 2014 04:03
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Releasing a book in under two years isn't really a rush job, he's done it before and he keeps saying he has parts already written, knows what's going to happen. He really is just a lazy gently caress who doesn't want to finish something that he started because it's not fun for him any more. The quality of his writing has degraded over time, particularly the structure, pacing and composition of the last two books was atrocious and my guess would be that they are as bad as they are because he didn't have any real reason to tighten it up or pressure on him to do a good job. Based on his history with this series, I don't think he's going to finish winds before the show finishes let alone dreams. He's lazy and he doesn't like writing the story any more.
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Mar 20, 2014 04:08
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lemonadesweetheart posted:Releasing a book in under two years isn't really a rush job, he's done it before and he keeps saying he has parts already written, knows what's going to happen. He really is just a lazy gently caress who doesn't want to finish something that he started because it's not fun for him any more. The quality of his writing has degraded over time, particularly the structure, pacing and composition of the last two books was atrocious and my guess would be that they are as bad as they are because he didn't have any real reason to tighten it up or pressure on him to do a good job. quote:“I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.” This right here is the problem. At some point, you have to stop planting seeds and you have to become an architect. Otherwise it becomes a story-telling ponzi-scheme (like Lost) that has no satisfying conclusion. I think he's starting to realize that he's going to have to resolve some plot threads and start closing the story up or he'll lose it completely, but he hates that because that involves planning, and may go against the natural flow of the characterization.
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Mar 20, 2014 04:12
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Gianthogweed posted:I think he's starting to realize that he's going to have to resolve some plot threads and start closing the story up or he'll lose it completely, but he hates that because that involves planning, and may go against the natural flow of the characterization. Don't be so sure... GRRM posted:Spartacus went back and told a prequel season. That’s also an option. We have prequel. We have the Dunk and Egg novellas, which take place a hundred years before. And I’ve just published The Princess and the Queen, which takes place two hundred years before. So there’s lots of Westeros material out there, if we want to keep doing Westeros projects, but not necessarily that. But, you know, I realize—I don’t want to sound too glib about this. This is a serious concern. The man will do any say anything to avoid writing TWOW and ADOS. Anything.
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Mar 20, 2014 05:09
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Aerys actually demanded that Jon Arryn send him Ned and Robert's heads, it's actually Jon Arryn who declared open rebellion. If you buy into the 'Southron Ambitions' fan-theory Jon, Hoster Tully and Rickard Stark were planning to make a move against Aerys for a while, whether it was a full out rebellion or not is not clear but they were probably scheming to form a strong alliance between their houses and the Baratheons (as Robert was already head of house Baratheon at the time) and be less than completely loyal to the iron throne. Yea. And also, technically speaking, the ruling power can't 'start a rebellion' against its own power. So while Aerys may have overstepped into tyrannical lunacy, his vassals were still obliged to honor their vows. Whether or not their ambitions were 'pure' - whatever that means within feudalism - they still broke their vows and started a rebellion.
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Mar 20, 2014 05:37
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Only Jon and Hoster and Tywin broke vows I'm pretty sure. The Baratheons had died very recently I thought and obviously Rickard etc. Ned and Robert never swore fealty.
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Mar 20, 2014 06:01
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The timeline for the Baratheons is kind of hosed up since wasnt Robert and Ned supposed to have been like 18 or something at the start of the rebellion and Stannis was leading the defense of the siege of Storm's End as a child I guess?
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Mar 20, 2014 06:03
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I don't understand what's so hard about setting some modest weekly goals for finishing the books rather than trying to set up some contrived way of delaying the end of the show. If he wrote a mere page a day it'd be close to done already and there'd be no danger of the show finishing first.
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Mar 20, 2014 06:04
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jsoh posted:The timeline for the Baratheons is kind of hosed up since wasnt Robert and Ned supposed to have been like 18 or something at the start of the rebellion and Stannis was leading the defense of the siege of Storm's End as a child I guess? Based on the wiki it looks like Stannis was 17 at the start of the siege and Ned and Robert were 19. Old enough for him to be in charge, even if only technically so because it was his older brother's castle.
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Mar 20, 2014 06:13
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TOOT BOOT posted:I don't understand what's so hard about setting some modest weekly goals for finishing the books rather than trying to set up some contrived way of delaying the end of the show. If he wrote a mere page a day it'd be close to done already and there'd be no danger of the show finishing first. With all the touring and blogging and editing and so on that he does, I think he actually sits down to work on the novel itself around 100 days a year 
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Mar 20, 2014 06:21
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Hedrigall posted:With all the touring and blogging and editing and so on that he does, I think he actually sits down to work on the novel itself around 100 days a year So, four pages a day, then. That's actually what most novelists shoot for and it's a completely reasonable pace. The best irony is, The Winds of Winter Is Not Coming 
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Mar 20, 2014 07:32
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If he was truly desperate to get the books out before the show he would have hired a ghostwriter by now. He can't be that stubborn about it right? Right?
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Mar 20, 2014 07:41
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CapnAndy posted:Desperation is good. Desperation will make him write. How often does a cognitive dissonance situation (I'm a great writer; then why don't I write?) resolve in the person's actually doing the thing? I hope he's more self-conscious than that, being a writer and an otherwise smart man - but it's much more likely it'll make him hate HBO when the inevitable comes. Crisco Kid posted:Season 4 costuming video. I love how Margaery's wedding dress is covered in thorns. I loved it, too. It's a nice idea for a wedding dress, having thorns on it  .I still don't really like the fact that they are not dressing Marge and Dany in their house colours, although it's pretty understandable why. Hopefully Dany will transition to black+red at some point, though.
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Mar 20, 2014 08:04
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meristem posted:I still don't really like the fact that they are not dressing Marge and Dany in their house colours, although it's pretty understandable why. Hopefully Dany will transition to black+red at some point, though. I'm hoping Dany will go red and black when she's in full-on war mode, regardless of whether or not she turns into one of the evil Targs by that point. I'd love to see her in a version of Rhaegar's armor.
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Mar 20, 2014 08:29
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On a sidenote, all this flailing around from GRRM makes me like him less and less. A lot of writers would kill for the fame, attention and respect that he and his work get, yet he drags his heels like a moping teenager.
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Mar 20, 2014 09:34
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bobjr posted:If he was truly desperate to get the books out before the show he would have hired a ghostwriter by now. He can't be that stubborn about it right? Oh, my sweet summer child... The man writes on a loving black and green DOS word processor because it was what he started out writing on back in the early 80's, and he's ordered his notes on the series be burnt in the event of his death because if he can't finish the series, then no one will. He is obstinace compressed in a spherical mass of flesh. I'm legitimately surprised he actually told Weis and Bennioff anything when they met with him at his home last year. I wonder what kind of pressure they had to put on him to get him to actually go through everything on a character level to give them material to start crafting an ending for the show. EDIT: As for actual show talk, I really hope we get a follow up to Margaery's "I can only imagine how it must feel to squeeze your finger here and watch something die over there" line from last season. Like just a two second shot as Joffrey's choking and everyone's panicking just have this look between them where she smirks for a second like she's going "Yeah, I killed you" without saying as much before she goes back to pretending to panic. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 10:06
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He actually told them the ending to The Pear Shaped Man instead.
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Mar 20, 2014 10:09
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nooneofconsequence posted:He actually told them the ending to The Pear Shaped Man instead. He probably just said "I have a massive heart attack. Deal with it." before having Ty escort them out of the house.
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Mar 20, 2014 10:17
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nine-gear crow posted:He probably just said "I have a massive heart attack. Deal with it." before having Ty escort them out of the house. Ty Franck? A guy who has managed to co-write 4 books in 3 years, has time to buttle for the human sloth who has failed to write anything in the same time. Perhaps George should ask him for some tips...
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Mar 20, 2014 11:51
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nine-gear crow posted:Don't be so sure... gently caress you GRRM. Spartacus did a prequel season because the main star had CANCER you poo poo, and the writers wanted to give him a chance to recover. Then he died. THAT is a circumstance where you put a show into suspended animation, not when a writer can't concentrate on producing actual material for the show but can somehow have fifteen different side projects, constant convention attendance and a busy schedule of watching football on the go while not writing a word of the only project 99% of his audience give half a poo poo about.
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Mar 20, 2014 11:52
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e: nm
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Mar 20, 2014 12:43
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Part of me thinks a huge budget movie to finish the series would be kind of cool, but that would take loving forever and there's also a chance it'll end up just being horrendously bad. So I don't know. Either way, sort your act out, GRRM.
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Mar 20, 2014 12:48
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A lot of people seem to not realise that GRRM doesn't owe us poo poo.
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Mar 20, 2014 12:52
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George R.R. Martin is not your bitch.
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Mar 20, 2014 12:55
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Vitamin P posted:A lot of people seem to not realise that GRRM doesn't owe us poo poo. It's still funny to see him scrambling to find some extra time as he slowly realizes he'll never finish before HBO catches up. Maybe we can make a three season Dunk & Egg prequel series? Elman fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 13:01
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maybe he doesnt owe anybody poo poo but he should probably stop pretending hes writing more books.
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Mar 20, 2014 13:01
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