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PlaceholderPigeon posted:If one were to physically remove the camera from the Music Club's transmission apparatus, and then place it in the conference room, would it would still broadcast as intended? I'm gonna say yes. The conference room thing would be pretty pointless if there was no way to broadcast from there.
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Mar 20, 2014 05:02
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The initial target had to have been Ibuki, because this wasn't a spur of the moment murder, and nobody knew precisely where Saonji would be, except Sonia. Which, I guess could point to her, but if she were the killer, she probably wouldn't have said anything to Hinata. Ibuki was in one place, and even more importantly, could be ordered about, so if the killer wanted her to follow them to a place, she would. If as I suspect, this was a killing based purely off of leaving the islands, then nothing about the murder victim matters except how easy a target they might be.
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Mar 20, 2014 05:15
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Spatula City posted:The initial target had to have been Ibuki, because this wasn't a spur of the moment murder, and nobody knew precisely where Saonji would be, except Sonia. Which, I guess could point to her, but if she were the killer, she probably wouldn't have said anything to Hinata. I don't think we actually know if this was a spur of the moment murder or not - aside from the method of death being close to or actually being hanging, all of the scene setup could have been done after Ibuki was dead and I don't think it would change much. We're still lacking a lot of insight into how and why the killing itself happened. Assuming Ibuki did not hang herself at the time Hinata saw the video, then it seems most of the evidence is about things that happened after she was killed. We can't even be sure about the scene of the murder yet!
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Mar 20, 2014 05:39
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Baron O Beefdip posted:I'm gonna say yes. The conference room thing would be pretty pointless if there was no way to broadcast from there. The cameras actually went with the opposite transmitter. So bringing the Music Hall camera to the Hospital actually brings it closer in range. That's the whole point. Despite Souda's posturing about increasing the range, ultimately all he did was switch the cameras.
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Mar 20, 2014 05:46
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lets think for a bit. What exactly did the killer have to do during the window of opportunity? As far as I remember, though Ive probably forgotten things, the main differences are the pillar, the door and the second camera. One could reasonably do all that in ten or so minutes if they rush, especially if they have the heat pre-melting the glue on the pillar.
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Mar 20, 2014 07:44
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Mioda was absolutely the intended target. Look at the two coverups; Mioda's coverup required planning and extensive setup; coming up with the idea of the fake recording, changing the club to look like the conference room, duplicating elements from the real crime scene, all in an effort to make a crime look like a suicide (which would let the killer get off scot free if they voted it as such). This part of the crime had to have been planned. By contrast, Saionji's coverup is haphazard and spur of the moment. There isn't really any good coverup at all, the killer just hid her behind a fake wall for like 10 minutes in order to disguise when exactly she died. But there's no effort to hide that she'd been murdered, hardly any false leads, and the unlikelihood of anyone knowing she was going to leave her room means they couldn't really plan around it. All the components used in hiding Saionji are things the killer could easily find at the club itself, whereas Mioda's coverup includes several components from the supermarket and hospital.
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Mar 20, 2014 08:06
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Given that we managed to find our fake crime scene in the hospital, even if the specifics of how the footage got transmitted to the receiver aren't clear yet, and that the 'suicide scene' happened while the 'despair fever' was still in effect, I think it's safe to narrow down the culprit to those who were confined to the hospital side during the quarantine. Narrow timing, granted, but so was DR1, Case 3. I concur that the fact that Saionji had a perfectly legit reason for being at the music club that only Sonia knew about would mean that her murder was unplanned, so I'm going to posit that the killer probably only intended to kill Ibuki and have it passed off as a suicide. Most likely scenario at the moment is that the culprit was making preparations for Ibuki's murder when Saionji entered the picture. The fact that Saionji's obi is tied backwards most likely means that she had enough time to take it off herself before the culprit retied it, which in turn means that the culprit probably arrived after she did. Not sure what, if anything, that changes though. I can't say why the culprit chose to reveal Saionji's body at the particular time they did, but her murder would become apparent eventually, so maybe they thought it might be more confusing this way? I will say that the whole hiding Saionji behind a fake pillar thing seems like either a bad attempt at creating an alibi, which doesn't work well since the culprit still had to be in the music club to remove the pillar at the time when people think Saionji's murder happened, or an attempt to hide Saionji's body from Ibuki when, and if, they killed her in the music club after Saionji's murder. Why go through with Ibuki's murder if Saionji is already dead in a way that makes it obviously murder is beyond me, but I can't think of anything else the culprit stands to gain from hiding her body.
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Mar 20, 2014 12:57
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Aw man, I guess it only could have been Tsumiki. She was the one who brought Hinata to the hospital lobby before anyone else woke up. He needed to be there to see the fake suicide transmission, which was sent from the hospital at a time when she was the only ambulatory person. Kuzuryuu could have been her alibi for the time someone took the paper off the pillar and faked locking the door, but they went in different directions and Kuzuryuu didn't go near the club. We don't know exactly what went on in the club that ended up with Saionji dead, but that doesn't really matter now.
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Mar 20, 2014 14:30
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So if Tsumiki was the killer, was it a Despair-Fever induced thing?
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Mar 20, 2014 14:37
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Austrian mook posted:So if Tsumiki was the killer, was it a Despair-Fever induced thing? My prediction would be "no" since people affected by Despair Fever had spirals in her eyes and she didn't. Saying that she actually had it, but didn't display all the symptoms of the others who had it would seem disingenuous to me at least.
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Mar 20, 2014 14:39
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timp posted:My prediction would be "no" since people affected by Despair Fever had spirals in her eyes and she didn't. Saying that she actually had it, but didn't display all the symptoms of the others who had it would seem disingenuous to me at least. Then why kill the two of them?
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Mar 20, 2014 15:05
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Austrian mook posted:So if Tsumiki was the killer, was it a Despair-Fever induced thing? Probably just the result of bullying and a large chunk of spite. Assuming Mikan is our killer then I'd imagine the basic motive was Saionji's bullying. Simple and straightforward. At some point Saionji insulted Mikan and after so much hard work and lack of sleep Mikan just broke. Mioda was the spiteful bit, Saionji being forced to see something she loved being taken away. Mioda was so compliant that Mikan could have just told her to kill herself and she'd have probably done so. There's lots of questions if this is the case but I just can't see a scenario where Mikan kills Mioda intentionally and then kills Saionji as collateral damage. While all the evidence does point to the most effort being put into Mioda's murder I really suspect it was all to get at Saionji.
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Mar 20, 2014 15:07
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Austrian mook posted:Then why kill the two of them? I believe she killed Mioda because she thought she could get away with it and wants to get off the island, but Saionji walked in while she was setting it up and had to be silenced. If you're asking about her actual personal motive for committing a murder at all, I have no idea. As others have said with this game it seems best to just let the evidence point you towards the culprit and wait to hear their motive during their confession, not discover their motive and use that in your accusation.
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Mar 20, 2014 15:08
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The whole 'fake hanging' currently makes no sense because it's clear there was a murder, what with the other dead body, and the murderer has taken pains to make it look like the other one died after the hanging victim. So why make it look like Mioda killed herself? I can only think of two possibilities: a) Plans went wrong. A plan to make a fake suicide was disrupted when Saionji discovered it and the killer didn't have the time to fix things. The weird thing is, it's totally fixable. Just make it look like Mioda killed Saionji and then herself. With the 'locked room' setup, people would conclude Mioda was the killer, and that would be that. So either the killer is stupid or something else is going on. b) Chessmaster scenario. There's some reveal coming that some of this evidence is planted to point suspicion on someone else. Layers within layers. edit: Seriously, here's how to do the murder in a better way and would probably get away with it. I don't get why the murderer didn't do this: - Kill Mioda and Saionji. Plant their bodies in the room as before, but make it look like Mioda was the one who slashed Saionji's throat. Smear some blood on her hands or something. - Pre-smash the camera in the music room. Seal the door. Do all this stuff ahead of time. - Don't wake anyone up early. Just let things move at their own pace. - When protagonist and gangster go to make the morning call, be up in the projector room and do the whole fake video hanging thing as before. - Good guys freak out, arrive on scene, break down door, and find scene almost exactly the same as it is now. Except: the characters aren't looking for another killer (the real one) and you don't have to spend so much time altering things at the last second. Bobulus fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 15:15
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Bobulus posted:edit: Seriously, here's how to do the murder in a better way and would probably get away with it. I don't get why the murderer didn't do this: Heck, they don't even need to do the whole fake suicide video thing, either. The Motel group would be going there already to check in. There's absolutely no reason to do any of the things that they did unless they specifically want to frame someone for a very specific reason. Incidentally, that's why I'm still not sold on the Mikan-as-Culprit theory. There are just so many other opportunities she has why even bother with this ludicrous set-up. I know this is an anime game, but still, it seems way out there. I mean, it's fun, but it just requires such precise timing that I don't exactly know why they bothered. And I doubt Mioda was the initial target simply because then there'd be no point to hiding Saionji's body. The unveiling of Saionji's body happened within an incredibly tight window and we know from the fact that it was put back on the roll in the storage room that someone had to do it by hand. Bobulus's way would have been way smarter if Saionji had simply been a target of opportunity, but I'm pretty sure she was taken by surprise. We'll see, though.
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Mar 20, 2014 15:44
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Bobulus posted:a) Plans went wrong. I still kinda think this is what's going on. If you ignore Saionji entirely, the killer's thought process is crystal clear: Exploit Mioda's suggestibility to get her to the club, string her up, then perform the fake suicide in front of the camera and watch everyone assume Mioda hung herself due to despair fever. Clean up the conference room, dispose of the evidence, everything is neat and clean and the murderer gets off the island when everyone votes that Mioda killed herself. It's a neat plan, and that part of the situation shows clear signs of planning and preparation. If Saionji is thrown into the mix halfway through - perhaps because she happened to be in the storeroom practicing tying her obi when Mioda and the killer showed up - then the killer is now forced to deal with an unexpected corpse that has not only appeared in the middle of what they want to look like the site of a suicide, but the victim has died rather messily, getting blood all over the stage, ladder, Mioda's slippers, etc. But there is one huge issue which I still can't figure out: why did the killer feel a need to disguise the order of deaths? What's so important about everyone believing Mioda died first? It makes no sense, from the killer's perspective, to want to create that illusion. As you said, it would make for a far better ruse to make it seem like Mioda killed Saionji, then hung herself in remorse. But the killer went to a lot of trouble, constructing and removing a fake pillar under incredibly tight time constraints, just so that people would believe Saionji died in that short interval. Why? I can't figure it out, but it has to be important. I'm not buying the idea that the killer did unreasonable things just to make everything confusing. That's sloppy writing, for one thing, and you can apply that logic to everything about the case. It doesn't lead anywhere, it's just idle speculation. Focus on the things that move the case forward and shed light on the killer's motivations for doing things.
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Mar 20, 2014 16:18
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You're right, Bobulus, making it seem like Saionji was killed by Ibuki does seem to make more sense than doing it the way the killer did - and the timing is a lot more lenient. Maybe it was a case of being too clever for their own good? It probably wouldn't have fooled everyone. "Where's the candle", "how did the equipment get smashed", "why would the completely compliant person murder someone for no reason", but still, it's not a bad setup. It would mean that no one has an alibi, though. *** I find the complete lack of physical evidence troubling. Where is it? Missing Evidence:
CuppaGodot posted:Heck, they don't even need to do the whole fake suicide video thing, either. The Motel group would be going there already to check in. There's absolutely no reason to do any of the things that they did unless they specifically want to frame someone for a very specific reason. Let's turn the chessboard around and assume that Mikan is completely innocent. Her story is that before resting, she went to check on the patients, found Ibuki missing, went outside waited for Kuzuryuu, then they spit up to search, and Mikan met the rest at the motel. Lacking evidence of a third scene where it could have been filmed, the killer probably filmed the scene in the hospital - quite risky if they weren't one of the people supposed to be there. That makes their timing problem even more absurd, because they have to wait for Mikan to leave and stay out of her sight on the way to the club. By definition, that's even less time than Mikan would have had. The only way a non-Mikan killer works is if the suicide scene was actually filmed at the music club, but that doesn't match the evidence (where did the missing stepladder go?).
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Mar 20, 2014 16:40
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Lacking evidence of a third scene where it could have been filmed, the killer probably filmed the scene in the hospital - quite risky if they weren't one of the people supposed to be there. That makes their timing problem even more absurd, because they have to wait for Mikan to leave and stay out of her sight on the way to the club. By definition, that's even less time than Mikan would have had. I think we can agree that the fake scene was the conference room. And as the investigation proved, someone could hide in the conference room quite easily. I can't dismiss the possibility of Mikan or I would, but I maintain there are opportunities for someone to film the scene and still get around Mikan without seeming too out of place. Like I've said, Kuzuryuu is acting awfully suspicious this time around and the more he talks the more suspicious it gets. We know Mikan said that she went to wake him, which I don't see any reason for that being a lie. Even if she had succeeded, and acting as the mastermind lured the both of them to the Music Hall, everything would still have proceeded the same. It probably would make her more suspicious, but it also would have allowed her more opportunity to move around. However, he didn't wake up and his door was locked. That could mean she just didn't manage to wake him up for some reason, of course, but it in no way proof positive of his whereabouts before the morning announcement. Plus, if it was him, it would help explain the blood on the stage that was hurriedly wiped away and the bloodstain on Mioda's slippers. I think we can assume rather safely Saionji was killed in the supply closet, and yet the blood is on the stage, where the victim has no other wounds. How it got there seems relevant. That said, Mikan still has the most window of opportunity and that does put her under more intense scrutiny.
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Mar 20, 2014 17:08
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Mikan actually serves as Kuzuryuu's alibi. She met him at the entrance of the clinic after Hinata left for the club. Even if he wasn't sleeping like he said for some reason, he wasn't in the clinic. Someone could have hid in the conference room despite the fact that there is no evidence to that effect, but it couldn't have been him.
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Mar 20, 2014 17:20
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E: Nothing to see here.
Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 18:06
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The thing I don't understand is that even if Ibuki was strangled on the ground and then hung from the lighting rig post-mortem there is still no reason to have the faked video. People would still assume it was suicide regardless. The video only serves to add additional clues for the others to pick up on.
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Mar 20, 2014 18:27
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Who What Now posted:The thing I don't understand is that even if Ibuki was strangled on the ground and then hung from the lighting rig post-mortem there is still no reason to have the faked video. People would still assume it was suicide regardless. The video only serves to add additional clues for the others to pick up on. The faked video provides a fake time of death. Notice how the Monobear Report specifically excludes time of death? If you see the video and rush over to 'rescue' Ibuki, you obviously assume Ibuki died just then as opposed to whenever she really died.
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Mar 20, 2014 18:30
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Yeah, the fake hanging video and the fake pillar thing are there to make it seem like they were just killed then The students are all assuming the killer had to have time to kill Saionji AND string her up with all that tape during that specific window of time, when really all they had to do was grab the paper and stuff it in storage. 30 seconds instead of 10+ minutes lets you have an alibi for the "time of the murder". Same with the video, and the thermostat. Ibuki could have been killed much earlier, in the middle of the night, when nobody had an alibi. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 19:03
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Remember that the cast's prevailing theory is that these were copycat murders replicating Monobear's "movie". And it's going to be on that particular basis that Hinata is going to be accused. (He had the best access to the crime scene at the presumed time of at least Saionji's murder.) The unnecessarily complicated setup is to frame Hinata. Too bad he can prove he never watched the movie before the murders.
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Mar 20, 2014 19:18
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Dr Subterfuge posted:The unnecessarily complicated setup is to frame Hinata. Maybe Hinata did do it, has had despair fever all along, and we're not seeing what we're supposed to.  But in all seriousness, what purpose does faking the time of death serve anyway? Normally, you'd do something like that in order to provide an alibi for yourself. "I couldn't have done it, because she died at this time, and I was elsewhere then!" Except, no one has any kind of alibi for the fake time of death either. Pretty much everyone was on their own, so what does the killer think they stand to gain from faking the time of death? Framing Hinata is a possibility, but there isn't any other evidence implicating him other than him not having an alibi... just like everyone else.
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Mar 20, 2014 19:46
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Wasn't there only like 5-15 minutes between Hinata leaving the club and that group breaking down the door? I'd say that qualifies as an alibi for anyone who was spotted even briefly during that time (Saionji was taped up pretty extensively) until they realize it was just a matter of quickly removing the paper.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:52
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Maybe Hinata did do it, has had despair fever all along, and we're not seeing what we're supposed to. We just got an evidence bullet saying that Mikan was alone "for only a short time". That sounds like an alibi for the fake time of death to me.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:58
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Ditocoaf posted:I'd say that qualifies as an alibi for anyone who was spotted even briefly during that time But who would that be? Hinata was alone in the lobby, the despair fever patients were alone in their rooms, Tsumiki was alone god knows where, and none of the others mentioned seeing any of the others at the time of the murder, only afterwards. At the fake time of murder, literally everyone seems to have been on their own. E: ^^^^^ It doesn't do anything for Mioda's time of death, and it's a pretty watertight alibi for everyone for Saionji's murder, since everyone seems to agree no one could possibly have actually murdered her and taped her to the pillar in that short time. So that doesn't really help exonerate anyone, or cast suspicion on anyone else. The way the murderer faked things, there's one murder that no one has an alibi for, and one murder that seems entirely impossible. Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 21:01
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Remember that the cast's prevailing theory is that these were copycat murders replicating Monobear's "movie". And it's going to be on that particular basis that Hinata is going to be accused. I thought everyone could only see the movie once. Hinata seeing the movie after the murders would nip that argument in the bud. -EDIT- Didn't Hinata get a time-stamped ticket stub and everything? If it does come up it'll be babby's first puzzle for this case. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 21:11
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Who What Now posted:I thought everyone could only see the movie once. Hinata seeing the movie after the murders would nip that argument in the bud. Yeah, I had all that in mind when I was writing my post. It's part of my basis for why he's going to get accused at all. Chekov's exonerating evidence bullet.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:28
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LukanFox posted:
Saionji was having trouble tying her obi in her room, and was apparently going to the club to use the mirror to do it properly. So I'd guess that the obi tied in the front means that she tied it that way herself so that she could get there without her kimono falling off, and then was murdered before she could retie it correctly.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:30
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KillerEggplant posted:Saionji was having trouble tying her obi in her room, and was apparently going to the club to use the mirror to do it properly. So I'd guess that the obi tied in the front means that she tied it that way herself so that she could get there without her kimono falling off, and then was murdered before she could retie it correctly. It's hard to make too much sense of the bow being in front one way or another--if the killer tied it, you'd think that they would tie it in back, and why would they tie it at all? If Saionji herself tied it, couldn't she rotate it around to her back before heading back to her room? I mean, unless she wanted to be able to examine it in more detail back it her room, which I suppose is a possibility. If I had to guess, I'd lean towards Saionji having been in the back room when the murder happened, and then coming out, as opposed to her walking in from outside. That way she's cornered from the moment she realizes something's wrong.
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Mar 21, 2014 00:09
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I'm mostly surprised that Tsumiki would take advantage of and murder one of her patients. Unlike some of the others, her whole identity seemed to be based around her SHSL talent. She hasn't shown any symptoms of despair fever, either.
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Mar 21, 2014 01:28
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Serious Frolicking posted:I'm mostly surprised that Tsumiki would take advantage of and murder one of her patients. Unlike some of the others, her whole identity seemed to be based around her SHSL talent. She hasn't shown any symptoms of despair fever, either. Super High School Level Münchausen By Proxy
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Mar 21, 2014 02:12
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Serious Frolicking posted:I'm mostly surprised that Tsumiki would take advantage of and murder one of her patients. Unlike some of the others, her whole identity seemed to be based around her SHSL talent. She hasn't shown any symptoms of despair fever, either. If she had the disease, it would have presumably run its course by the time she woke up Hinata before the bodies were discovered, since Nagito had recovered by then. So, other than the incidents where she fell asleep on top of our protagonist, were there any instances where she was acting abnormally while the others were infected?
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Mar 21, 2014 02:23
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Wyvernil posted:If she had the disease, it would have presumably run its course by the time she woke up Hinata before the bodies were discovered, since Nagito had recovered by then. Komaeda was still delirious before the lobby transmission. He was blabbering about the Olsen twins.
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Mar 21, 2014 02:31
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Wyvernil posted:If she had the disease, it would have presumably run its course by the time she woke up Hinata before the bodies were discovered, since Nagito had recovered by then. Neither Ibuki nor Owari had the whole getting deathly sick thing, so I'm going with it being something Monobear did specifically for Nagito in order to make the 'fever' seem scarier to make Mikan, Kuzuryuu and Hinata more panicky, and therefore more likely to commit a murder. So even if Mikan hypothetically caught the 'fever', there's no reason to think she would have gotten sick as well. And, yes, I maintain that this is an entirely hypothetical scenario; I'm standing by my assessment that the motive wasn't infection by 'despair fever', but to avoid catching it. Edit: I also just realised that we never did find the weapon used to kill Saionji, so I'm expecting more evidence to come out during the trial itself. LukanFox fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 10:57
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LukanFox posted:Edit: I also just realised that we never did find the weapon used to kill Saionji, so I'm expecting more evidence to come out during the trial itself. There's a lot of missing evidence in this case. I'm not sure where the killer hid it, never mind when they had time among all the other things. The killer had access to the hospital, at least to get the robe. If the murder weapon was a scalpel, it's probably been rinsed off and put back.
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Mar 21, 2014 12:51
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LukanFox posted:Neither Ibuki nor Owari had the whole getting deathly sick thing, so I'm going with it being something Monobear did specifically for Nagito in order to make the 'fever' seem scarier to make Mikan, Kuzuryuu and Hinata more panicky, and therefore more likely to commit a murder. That or losing a patient, or being so close (remember, Komaeda was pretty much dead at a point) broke her, especially having to face the others after having failed to save of their own. That way, she planned a murder just to get out, one way or another. That would fit the "Despaired murderer" hint Komaeda gave us.
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Mar 21, 2014 13:54
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I don't really see how it can be any one other than Mikan or Kuzuryuu. Komaeda not only seems to know ( or at least strongly suspect) who the killer is, he also seems to know what their motive is. Komaeda has been completely confined in the hospital since his collapse until after Ibuki was found. He even states himself, twice, that he's quite in the dark about the events that passed prior to his arrival at the music club. Hinata also mentions that Komaeda hasn't been around. Komaeda is clearly quite intelligent, and is probably the most competent investigator, but unless there's something everyone, including us, are missing, I don't see how he could just show up at the club and be able to deduce the motive, unless he noticed something at the hospital, where he only saw Mikan or Kuzuryuu (and Hinata). That seems to be more a mark against Mikan than Kuzuryuu. Aside from Mikan almost suffocating Hinata, there's no time during the Despair Fever that Hinata has any physical contact with either Mikan or Kuzuryuu, is there? The high temperature seems to be the one symptom common to all victims. On some non-speculation notes: Monomi's angry expression with the light in her eyes is unnerving. I don't think there's anything to that, just a comment. What exactly is Hinata referring to with thinking that he hopes the after effects of Akane's fever stay around a little longer? Is there any reason why Kuzuryuu is so hostile to Monomi? It's really standing out in this case, where he's dialled back his attitude with everyone else.
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Mar 21, 2014 14:16
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