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Well if that's what they like to get up to, maybe Diplomacy would have worked after all. The NCR love doing those things too 
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Mar 20, 2014 13:01
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You realize the NCR and khans violence is not at all one sided right? Like the khans do some raiding and poo poo and the ncr shoots them up and the khans run away and resettle and the NCR is like cool well leave you alone lol jk can we have that land oh look were fighting again lol. Neither side is innocent and the NCR is just as guilty as the khans. If theyre at all the good guys they should actually attempt peace and poo poo. Of course nothing justifies the wholesale murder of children courtesy of the NCR, but, y'know, they had it coming what with being born Khans.
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Mar 20, 2014 16:18
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Mortimer posted:This is the correct answer. He's a benevolent dictator for life. While I am super pro-House, I can't deny that benevolent isn't really the right word. I was looking through the ending slides on the wiki last night and the man can be a really petty dick, despite his claims to the contrary. If you get the Kings to work with the NCR, House responds by accusing them of "lying with a foreign invader" and wipes them out to the last man. If you don't complete G.I. Blues, House also wipes them out purely to expand his territory. The only way for House not to kill them is to make them attack the NCR. And if you get Primm NCR protection, House taxes them heavily as "repayment for their NCR loyalty." The man is a rear end, and theres only so much a Good Karma Courier can do.
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Mar 20, 2014 16:26
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Look sure the Great Khans are raiders and assholes, but Jack's one of them and that makes them a-okay with me. Plus Papa Khan isn't really that bad of a guy, I mean he's just trying to do what's best for his people at this point which is why I always go with trying to get them out of the Mojave so they can form a legit empire in the northern US.
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Mar 20, 2014 16:31
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Nephthys posted:While I am super pro-House, I can't deny that benevolent isn't really the right word.
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Mar 20, 2014 17:08
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2house2fly posted:They do that now, as revenge for the NCR massacring them. I'm also not sure if that isn't the only mischief they really get up to these days, what with being scared to leave their canyon and all. The only Khans I remember meeting or even hearing about out in the wasteland are the ones with Benny, who are fairly chill really, and the guy who's killing people at Bitter Springs. Oh, and Anders the drug smuggler. But people in Arizona probably wouldn't mind something to take the edge off, really. So scared to leave the canyon, they have a sniper team picking up drugs outside the NCR's quarry.
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Mar 20, 2014 17:47
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Paracelsus posted:The Good Karma House ending has you doing exactly that. "The Courier, fair and kind-hearted to those in the Wasteland, ensured that Mr. House would keep New Vegas stable and secure for future generations." That's assuming that you buy the notion that the Courier is going to stay in the area for a long time. Couriers travel a lot from place to place, so I think it's a bit unlikely that even Good Karma Courier is going to be around to temper House's natural benign asshattery. Ddraig posted:It's really no different than the literary tests they made black people take before they were allowed to vote. I think it's more like the modern "you need a valid ID to vote". It's a entirely trivial (and reasonable) level of security, but there's a boatload of  y nonsense about how it's such a Horrible Thing.The NCR wants to feed people, but thanks to Pacer they have to winnow it down to just NCR folks. So they have to take a simple test. 2house2fly posted:They do that now, as revenge for the NCR massacring them. And the NCR  massacring them can be traced back to the Khan's consistently ignoring envoys of peace in favor of barbarism. You make the choice of barbarism one too many times, you're going to suffer the fate of barbarians.SpookyLizard posted:You realize the NCR and khans violence is not at all one sided right? Like the khans do some raiding and poo poo and the ncr shoots them up and the khans run away and resettle and the NCR is like cool well leave you alone lol jk can we have that land oh look were fighting again lol. No, it's more like "Khans do some raiding, NCR shoots them up, Khans do more raiding, NCR shoots them up again, NCR tries to make peace with the Khans, Khans attack NCR, NCR makes plans to put them down for good." SpookyLizard posted:Neither side is innocent and the NCR is just as guilty as the khans. If theyre at all the good guys they should actually attempt peace and poo poo. The NCR attempted peace. The Khans refused. You don't get infinite chances to join civilization.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:16
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Ddraig posted:It's really no different than the literary tests they made black people take before they were allowed to vote. Except that it's nothing like those tests. Those tests were constructed to be nearly impossible to complete - and even if you did, final judgement was entirely up to your examiner. They are not the same literally, they are not the same in spirit, they are nothing alike apart from the concept of 'asking questions'.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:26
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MisterBibs posted:You make the choice of barbarism one too many times, you're going to suffer the fate of barbarians. SpookyLizard posted:Of course nothing justifies the wholesale murder of children courtesy of the NCR, but, y'know, they had it coming what with being born Khans. I'm getting a very 'legion' vibe from these quotes... Also SpookyLizard, those dead children didn't choose to be born Khans. If you ever find yourself thinking "this group had it coming, what with being born [blank]" make sure you remember  I get that you guys like the NCR but defending Bitter Springs is not the way to do so, especially considering Boone, who is a total NCR loyalist states pretty clearly and repeatedly that it was an act of total evil. Hell his entire arc is about him dealing with how traumatized he was from doing it, and he's a lucky one since he actually walked out of there alive.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:29
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MisterBibs posted:And the NCR
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Mar 20, 2014 20:37
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MisterBibs posted:That's assuming that you buy the notion that the Courier is going to stay in the area for a long time. Couriers travel a lot from place to place, so I think it's a bit unlikely that even Good Karma Courier is going to be around to temper House's natural benign asshattery. Except the Hoise ending specifically says he is and does. quote:I think it's more like the modern "you need a valid ID to vote". It's a entirely trivial (and reasonable) level of security, but there's a boatload of If you're trying to argue for something, it's probably not a good idea to link it to the modern day conservative scheme of "too many minorities and college kids are voting for democrats, how do we make it arbitrarily harder for them to vote?"
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Mar 20, 2014 20:57
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Bitter Springs was a fuckup massacre, I can't see how this is an issue. Were the Great Khans assholes who cause(d) problems for NCR? Yes. Is NCR imperialistic and constantly shoving the Khans out farther and farther? Yes. This isn't some 'truth in the middle' garbage, the NCR hosed up and killed children and old/sick people. The Khans are gonna milk the 'poor pitiful me' angle but to say the people deserved it is pretty odd. They try to cover it up by saying they're refugees but it's pretty clear from talking to Boone/Khans/Bitter Root/Manny that it wasn't a pretty sight out there. I also don't think that test they give you could compare to a literacy test. As mentioned before, literacy tests were designed to be difficult and keep the 'wrong people' (read: minorities) from voting. Even if you passed they could still be judged by the mercy of the polling person. Also the ID thing is way off tangent but not everyone has the proper ID needed to vote. Some don't drive, some did and they expired, or whatever. If it was compulsory to get an ID I wouldn't have a problem but it isn't so I have problems with it. Of course, this is kind of out of the scope of the thread. Stanos fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 21:04
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I'm 26 and I don't have a "valid" ID. I don't drive, have never been abroad so don't have a passport and it's a pain in the rear end to do stuff like opening up a bank account and such. There's probably a hell of a lot of people in a similar situation as me who don't drive and don't have a passport... Were voting to require an ID, myself and many, many people like me would be literally disenfranchised, not the practical kind that various other schemes try to do.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:04
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Ddraig posted:I'm 26 and I don't have a "valid" ID. The DMV has ID cards for people like you, grow up.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:10
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Ddraig posted:I'm 26 and I don't have a "valid" ID.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:11
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socialsecurity posted:The DMV has ID cards for people like you, grow up. Well I don't actually live in the USA so this isn't a particular help to me, but it was a hypothetical scenario anyway. Point is, democracy has been going on for a long, long time without ID requirements and we haven't had mass fraud (at least none that is attributable to people voting multiple times under the same name) It's an arbitrary requirement literally designed to disenfranchise people. There is absolutely no defending it, but this is getting way off topic now. So how about them NCR, eh?
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Mar 20, 2014 21:18
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PootieTang posted:I get that you guys like the NCR but defending Bitter Springs is not the way to do so Bitter Springs was a horrible fuckup that only existed due to the Khans being Khans and rejecting civilization. Ddraig posted:Were voting to require an ID, myself and many, many people like me would be literally disenfranchised, not the practical kind that various other schemes try to do. So from this thread, things that are Totally Horrible Things For A Government To Dare Ask Their Citizens: - Know one of the two presidents they've had - Know the largest city in the Nation - Know what the flag is - To (usually freely) get a small slip of plastic designed to fit into a thing you keep your money in.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:24
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Ddraig posted:Well I don't actually live in the USA so this isn't a particular help to me, but it was a hypothetical scenario anyway. Point is, democracy has been going on for a long, long time without ID requirements and we haven't had mass fraud (at least none that is attributable to people voting multiple times under the same name) Voter ID laws exist in plenty of non-US countries like Germany without anyone crying disenfranchisement.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:27
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Paracelsus posted:There are known issues with votes being cast on behalf of the deceased, fake identities, and people living in other jurisdictions but still registered in their former homes. Chicago has been notorious for this for the last century or so. http://voterfraudfacts.com/voterfraud-statistics.php Tell me more.  Germans also have required IDs for anyone over 16. Does the US? Nope. I'll give you one guess too who tends to not have ID cards!
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Mar 20, 2014 21:30
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^^^ Or that. ID's arn't free in the U.S. And more often than not, places you can get them are not easy to access for minorities, either because of the odd hours that DMVs have that are most likely coinciding with your job, or the fact they may be 10 miles away and you have no easy access to transportation. And the last election there was like 128 confirmed cases of voter fraud. So all your doing is stopping people more likely to vote democrat from voting. Republicans have literally said that is the reason for it happening. Voter fraud is complete bullshit. Don't use voter id laws to justify your opinion for a stupid thing in a video game. Roobanguy fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 21:30
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MisterBibs posted:Bitter Springs was a horrible fuckup that only existed due to the Khans being Khans and rejecting civilization.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:35
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MisterBibs posted:So from this thread, things that are Totally Horrible Things For A Government To Dare Ask Their Citizens: As a person of relative privilege, these seem like minor annoyances at best, but all of these can be objectively bad given the situations that the NCR (or indeed any real government) could find themselves in, if things are not adequately implemented. Voter ID laws can only be justified if absolutely everyone eligible to vote before they are implemented is able to vote after. If a single person who would have been eligible under the old system is no longer eligible, either to ID not being available or being available at an extreme, unworkable expense to them then that law is hosed up and shouldn't be implemented because it literally goes against the entire system of democracy, no matter how you cut it. So unless the government is willing to hand out the proper documentation to everyone that is eligible to receive it in order to ensure they can vote, then it's going to lead to people who would have been able to vote not being able to. This is the complete and total definition of disenfranchisement. As in, if you were to look it up in a dictionary this definition would fit perfectly. As for the questions thing, well I've already given my position on why this is a bad thing, particularly as it's the only determination of citizenship and is based on knowledge that not every NCR citizen would have access to. Right now, without looking it up, can you tell me the most popular US president? What is the largest city in the US? The flag? If you can answer all three, then congratulations you get food. Get one wrong? gently caress you, move along.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:39
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LividLiquid posted:They didn't reject civilization. They had their own. NCR tried to take that away from them. Their civilization was founded on raiding the NCR. They're raiders. With that being said, saying that women and children "Had it coming" at Bitter Springs is hosed up and people should really try to avoid that line of argument. Also, the "Citizenship Test" is in no way comparable to either Jim-Crow era literacy tests or the modern debate over voter IDs, and to argue that it is trivializes both issues. Edit: Washington, New York, Fifty Stars, Thirteen Stripes, you're exceedingly dumb. Edit edit: also you're allowed to take the test over if you fail the first time. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 21:41
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Ddraig posted:As a person of relative privilege, these seem like minor annoyances at best, but all of these can be objectively bad given the situations that the NCR (or indeed any real government) could find themselves in, if things are not adequately implemented. As was noted, 1/2 presidents, not the largest city but the founding city, and what animal is on the flag, numerous of which are flying all over the drat place - these are not difficult questions, the point of them is not to weed out particular groups of NCR citizens - it's entirely reasonable that the vast majority of NCR citizens would know these questions. Also the mood of the missionary giving the questions doesn't match your description in the slightest. Beyond that, and I realize this is because NV is a game, but I'm fairly certain you can just take the test again?
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Mar 20, 2014 21:44
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You can take it again but he gives you grief for it. Other options (taken from a wiki) - Talk to the ghoul/bribe him to give you the password - Pickpocket it from guards - Talk to Julie Farkas and she gives you an in
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Mar 20, 2014 21:47
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Stanos posted:You can take it again but he gives you grief for it. I didn't know about the ghoul option, or the pickpocket (I never bother with pickpocketing anyway... I hardly ever see the point) As for the Julie Farkas one, I believe she only gives you the opportunity to get information from the missionary handing out food, not a means to get in. You still have to get in yourself. By that point my speech is usually high enough to talk my way in.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:55
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LividLiquid posted:They didn't reject civilization. They had their own. NCR tried to take that away from them. Raiding others is not a civilization. It's barbarism. The Khans might disagree, but that's sort of why it's barbarism. Ddraig posted:As a person of relative privilege, these seem like minor annoyances at best, but Thanks for proving my point, that rather than do something simple that a lot of people do (have an ID, be capable of basic testing), they spend the effort talking about why they shouldn't have to do it instead of doing the basic task.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:56
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Stanos posted:- Talk to Julie Farkas and she gives you an in Incidentally, and this is a stupid place to pick up on it but there's so little mention of Julie in this thread... Why the gently caress does she have a mohawk?
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Mar 20, 2014 21:59
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Paracelsus posted:There are known issues with votes being cast on behalf of the deceased, fake identities, and people living in other jurisdictions but still registered in their former homes. Chicago has been notorious for this for the last century or so. Voter ID laws are being fought against everywhere in the U.S. because poor people without driver's licenses vote overwhelmingly democratic. Republicans pass these laws to gain an advantage. They do this by charging fees for the ID's, close issuing sites, and severely restrict their hours so people without access to reliable transportation cannot afford the money or time to go get one. In the State of Pennsylvania in 2012 there was not one suspected or charged case of voter fraud, for example, but Republicans passed a Voter ID law before the presidential election which was struck down. They mainly were attempting to disenfranchise the Democratic African-American residents of Philadelphia who voted overwhelmingly for Barack Obama in a swing state. You should read more politics from places other than Facebook
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Mar 20, 2014 22:00
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Nobody Interesting posted:Incidentally, and this is a stupid place to pick up on it but there's so little mention of Julie in this thread... She lives near a building that was inhabited by Elvis impersonator. I imagine hair gel is a common commodity.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:02
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Nobody Interesting posted:Incidentally, and this is a stupid place to pick up on it but there's so little mention of Julie in this thread... It's a callback to the founder of the Followers of the Apocalypse, Nicole.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:03
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E: ^^^^  ^^^^It's likely a callback to how the Followers looked in FO1 - the one girl you talk to there has a bitching mohawk too as did several of the npc's in the follower's base.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:03
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Nobody Interesting posted:Incidentally, and this is a stupid place to pick up on it but there's so little mention of Julie in this thread... One of the main Followers of the Apocalypse characters and one of the recruitable followers in fallout one had one. It's kind of a thing for the followers now.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:04
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Right I'm a terrible awful person who hasn't played more than a few minutes of the original Fallout. I need to get on that.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:05
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Good luck, FO2 was my first exposure and I try to make myself play the original sometimes. It just feels...clunky.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:07
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MisterBibs posted:Raiding others is not a civilization. It's barbarism. The Khans might disagree, but that's sort of why it's barbarism. MisterBibs posted:Thanks for proving my point, that rather than do something simple that a lot of people do (have an ID, be capable of basic testing), they spend the effort talking about why they shouldn't have to do it instead of doing the basic task.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:08
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LividLiquid posted:Were they raiding people from bitter springs?
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Mar 20, 2014 22:29
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Raygereio posted:Yes. It's the reason why the NCR struck back at them. The Khans made their living by raiding the neighbouring tribes, caravans and settlements and when the NCR arrived in the Mojave the Khans began to send warparties to attack NCR settlers and soldiers.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:33
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MisterBibs posted:Bitter Springs was a horrible fuckup that only existed due to the Khans being Khans and rejecting civilization. It's really not hard to say that the Khans provoked a military response by raiding the NCR and that the NCR committed a horrible war crime at Bitter Springs. They can both be true. LividLiquid posted:Where do we find this out? I mean, the "raiding" rings a bell, and the Khans were totally raiders in Fallouts 1 and 2, but the Great Khans seem more like an American Indian pastiche than anything else. 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 22:38
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LividLiquid posted:Where do we find this out? I mean, the "raiding" rings a bell, and the Khans were totally raiders in Fallouts 1 and 2, but the Great Khans seem more like an American Indian pastiche than anything else. And I suppose you could draw some comparisons between New Vegas' Great Khans and real-life Native Americans, but really the Khans are a bunch of raiders. Just one that pretends they have some sort of "noble history".
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Mar 20, 2014 22:53
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