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JT Jag posted:OOC: Basically the New Byzantines are a modern day Western political party. They claim they have principles but really they'll just go with whatever is popular at the moment, in an effort to create as large a voting bloc as possible. Sounds like a bunch of the New Byzantines have been Loyalists the whole time if you ask me!
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Mar 20, 2014 17:06
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((OOC talk)) Yeah, what DCB said. If we can't come up with a good concrete mechanically-supported goal, I would not be opposed to the New Byzantines just straight-up being dissolved, maybe with a 'Congratulations! We've achieved your goal. Now pack your poo poo and find a new party' from the Emperor in the fiction.
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Mar 20, 2014 17:07
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Some suggestions, by the way, for 'goals that are chaseable in-game that the New Byzantines could support that would not support either the Milvians or the Old Romans': 1) Conquer Russia. Get the Milvians on board by saying 'look, this land used to be Orthodox, it can be again.' 2) Conquer Persia. 'Let's take the Holy Land and just keep going until we run out of map.' 3) Conquer nothing. Might be less fun for Rincewind to play, but 'consolidate and build up' would be a viable political position at this stage. They're not all good ideas, mind, but at least they're examples of things that can be pursued that do not tie in to either the Milvian or Old Roman agendas. (I seriously think the only reason the NBs have been so popular is that they have the awesomest flag)
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Mar 20, 2014 17:12
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Some suggestions, by the way, for 'goals that are chaseable in-game that the New Byzantines could support that would not support either the Milvians or the Old Romans': I would have figured the Inclusionists to essentially be the pacifist party, which is fine by me. Gives the people that don't want us to grow so large before converting to EUIV an outlet alongside those that just want us all to get along and stop killing people. Stopping the actions of the Black Chamber would also be something they'd support - no more murdering child rulers, that poo poo's just not cool.
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Mar 20, 2014 17:20
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OOC talk: Personally I would prefer the New Byzantines to stand for a) conquering whatever is convenient b) investing in infrastructure alongside expansion c) cultural tolerance and religiosu conversion only by negotiation and d) whichever policy maximises income from republics. I do not find the restoration of the Pentarchy or the reconquest of rome to be particularly compelling narratives. If only because it's been done before. It would be interesting to see the empire expand into the Middle East, Hungary, Germany or the Steppes, but I have no desire to force that outcome.
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Mar 20, 2014 17:37
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OOC: I am strangely compelled by the idea of taking all of Persia. gently caress those Somalian merchant dudes, amiright?
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Mar 20, 2014 18:20
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Ratoslov posted:OOC: OOC; It's a neat idea, but it wouldn't do much to the Somalian merchants. If I had to guess, the Somalian merchants specialize in Indian/Red Sea trade that goes through Egypt, while Persia predominantly controls the overland trade from the Silk Road. If we really wanted to gently caress those Somalian merchants, our best bet would be to conquer Egypt and set up a merchant republic there to cut into their monopoly.
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Mar 20, 2014 18:43
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Caustic Soda posted:
 You dare to compare the work of Unitas to the Guiding Light? Preposterous! The New Byzantine schismatics that want inclusion should join Unitas! Only we want to include all citizens of the empire in our great civilization. You see, we believe that all men have equal potential. Most never live up to it. A man outside the Orthodox Church can not. A man who isn't one of the Romans, the greatest of all men, can not. However, as it is possible to convert to the True Faith, it is possible to become a Roman! This Senate, though, denies our conquests the opportunity by encouraging the appointment of heathens and foreigners to the themes, despotates, and patricianships! I know why you do this. None of you believe as Unitas does, in the potential of all men. Instead you would keep our conquests in poverty, trapped in the lesser ways that allowed for their conquest in the first place! Why? Cheap labor? Political points with the most naïve among us? It doesn't matter! In your oppression, your denial of the opportunity for greatness and shared civilization, you become monsters! You are tyrants, traitors, the lowliest of the Romans! You can change your ways, though, just as we can change the ways of the conquered! Improve yourselves by joining Unitas, and we will improve our subjects by making them Roman!
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Mar 20, 2014 18:48
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As you try to hash out platforms, remember that parties are as much about what kind of nation we'll be in EU4 (national ideas, events, what our culture and religions will look like, etc.) as they are about doing things in CK2. This also means that more flavor-based legislation might have a bigger impact than just being mentioned once or twice and forgotten.
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Mar 20, 2014 19:24
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  I am most pleased by the theocracies our beloved but gone Empress has made. I would like to say I support conquering Genoa, for they steal our trade and it seems we're bent on retaking Italy. I would also like to voice, though, that the Catholics are not the only competition for trade we have. The Somali merchants have made it, somehow, even to our shores. And they're heathens. I say, it must not stand! We must embargo them post-haste, and establish a Levantine trade republic to diminish their power in OUR Mediterranean.
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Mar 20, 2014 19:44
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Rincewind posted:As you try to hash out platforms, remember that parties are as much about what kind of nation we'll be in EU4 (national ideas, events, what our culture and religions will look like, etc.) as they are about doing things in CK2.  There's only one way to go!  Old Roman military autocracy
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Mar 20, 2014 20:02
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JT Jag posted:
 That's good, we're good with that, we all agree that the Komnenians are good, but we've always been about more than just that, right? Just what is it that we wanna do? We wanna be free ,we wanna be free to do what we wanna do, and we wanna get loaded, and we wanna have a good time, that's what we're gonna do , we're gonna have a good time. We're gonna have a party. _____ The Komnenian Party is all about parties, so why not make that part of our platform? Less war, more feasts, tournaments and popular customs tech ... just throwing that out there, man.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:18
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 My personal take on the New Byzantines so far was that we would look towards the East as an area of expansion. Where the Old Romans would look to the West to recreate the old Roman Empire, the New Byzantines would aim to expand eastwards and forge a new, more Greek than Roman Empire. Having said that, taking land elsewhere when the opportunity presents itself is not something that I oppose. So maybe, instead of splitting the party (and practically handing power over to the Old Romans), we could agree towards a policy more oriented towards the east.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:37
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sheep-dodger posted:
This might work if you were exclusively trying to conquer Persia, but with Rome restored I think (for myself at least) Old Roman goals will turn to the Levant and Egypt especially, since Aegyptus was probably the wealthiest of all provinces in the Eastern Roman Empire.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:51
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Why do the New Byzantines even argue? What they are is obvious! They are the builders of a great menagerie, zoo-keepers, deniers of the brotherhood of man through Christ! They see all non-Romans as animals to be herded, to be taught tricks, to serve! Why do they not believe in assimilation, in the possibility of a Roman world? Because they think they are unworthy by birth alone! That one can only be born Roman as they have been! They barely think the conquered are worthy of the true Faith! The New Byzantines would enslave all men to the Romans as they preach tolerance! One more beast of burden, unfit to stand among them! Unitas knows better. We know all men can become Romans, if only they have the will and the opportunity! Who could not have the will? None are greater than the Romans! The New Byzantines are threatened. They know what happened to the Senate of old: Romanized provincial elites dominated it! A Roman world would sweep their "new" oriental slave society away and that cannot be allowed! I say let all men become Romans. We need only give them the best examples and encouragement through Roman governors!
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Mar 20, 2014 20:52
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Gnooble posted:
Considering that the Milvans also want those areas too (albeit for different reasons), perhaps some kind of caucus could be reached? Although I guess the Old Romans also want to nab all the necessary provinces for the 'Reform the Roman Empire' decision, at least.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:13
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Samuel posted:
I realize the session has yet to begin, but pushing a professional military is a wise move. We have seen enormous loss of life in our last two wars, not due to inferior troops - obviously, we came out on top - nor inferior numbers - we have the largest and most powerful military in the known world, in my opinion - but to the inefficient laggards that call themselves douxes. Pulling in troops from a hundred different levies is inefficient, and, dare I say it, downright feudal. We need a standing professional military to be our primary focus, if we are to take back the holy lands and restore the Pentarchy. We need a standing professional military if we are to cut ourselves free from scheming, secular lords. We must make our cataphracts the largest and most powerful trained military force in the world, and we must make the douxes irrelevant.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:17
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While I realize that the time to propose laws is not yet nigh, I would like to make several modest proposals in the interest of recognizing those that have helped Rome return to some shade of its glory, in the hope that Rome shall one day return to ascendancy. >First, those of us that say we must strike at Iberia are looking at the wrong direction too soon! We have a law on the books demanding that we retake the Holy Land. I propose we go one step further: take Alexandria. It is a rich area, home to a seat of the Pentarchy of old. Restoring it would help reunite Christianity under our own terms, not that of the Pope-in-Exile. >Second, while I am a devout Christian I make an unusual request of the Senate: The establishment of an independent Jewish state. Do not think I am so mad to propose we hand them Jerusalem, but have not the Jewish moneylenders granted us money in Rome's darkest hour? Have they not proved with their blood, sweat, and children that they are men such as we? We are Romans yea, but we are also Christian men - it is our duty to love thy neighbor. Let us take Ethiopia or Somalia, and make it a new Jewish state. >And finally, when it becomes time to take Iberia - because it was once Roman, after all - would it not save time to have them travel by ship? We do so already, but what if we had more ships? Let us invest in our naval levies. Experience crafting ships, experience with the Greek fire should make us a formidable naval force should we choose to travel the world. AdventFalls fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 21:34
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 Since no one else seems willing to make the icon, I have went ahead and commissioned one done. I probably should have not gone for the cheapest artisan available, but money is tight, alright! For the time being, the Pragmatists will remain a sub-party of the New Byzantines. Our central policy will revolve around the destruction of threats to the Empire. The core of these threats come from the east, both the Turkish Empire of many names and the infidel Mongols. Expansion into other regions should be done only if it can be achieved at little cost and the conquered province will be able to add to the Empire's strength, either in arms or in capital. We support the development of a strong economic infrastructure, but primarily through more advanced castles, as their defensive capability makes them a more stable investment than the towns or churches. Those that wish to join the Pragmatists are encouraged to do so when the votes come down, or sooner.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:02
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Rejected Fate posted:I would also like to voice, though, that the Catholics are not the only competition for trade we have. The Somali merchants have made it, somehow, even to our shores. And they're heathens. I say, it must not stand! We must embargo them post-haste, and establish a Levantine trade republic to diminish their power in OUR Mediterranean. Wait, wait wait. The Somali are real? I thought they were just a tale told by granddad to scare us. Had I not been shown an actual Somali ship sailing through our Bosphorus, I might still be in doubt! And now you say they are stealing our trade? This cannot stand! *looks at map* How did they even get up here? Did someone install a canal in Egypt when I wasn't looking? But it does look like they are near the lands the Miaphysite? I wonder. Speaking of which, I'll admit I'm not all that familiar with branches of the faith other than the Papists. Grandad used to tell stories about the Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Assyrian Churches and how they conduct services by way of sacrificing turtles. I'm not sure he's the most reputable of sources. What is our stance on them?
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Mar 20, 2014 22:06
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I really do hope that we never impede the Somalians in any form. They're one of the more delightfully ahistorical components of this timeline, thus far.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:15
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 The New Byzantines Steppes and Republics After hearing Unitas prattle on about "assimilation" senate session after senate session, I would like to counter propose a solution other than "ALL MUST BE GREEK BLARG". I propose the κατανέμονται ως ένα Act(divided as one). This act would allow the fusing of minority culture with Greek culture. This would allow them to become "Greek" while keeping their cultural heritage and language while combining it with Greek heritage and language. This would allow the cultural unity that Unitas so desires without force-assimalating other cultures at sword-point. OOC: What i'm trying to state here is that when we convert to EU4 instead of having a bunch of non-accepted cultures in our provinices we make them a new culture in the Byzantine culture group( which has very few cultures in it anyway). Cumans and Pechanegs become Greco-Altic, Turks become Greco-Turkic, Arabs become Greco-Arabic, Italians become Sicilian, etc. As the Byzantine Empire is already the cultural union of the Byzantine culture group we would get no penalties from said cultures.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:21
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I commend you, Senator Blackunknown! You are a fine example to all of our newly acquired citizens! This is what I wanted: an attempt. An opportunity. Imperialization, even on a small scale, will make our people more loyal. Some regional difference will always exist, after all. I am no Epirote! However, this will sow the seeds of an empire-wide brotherhood not seen since the once-Latin West! I would go further, of course, but this will do. OOC: This was pretty much my goal from the beginning. We can't have a bunch of rebellious minorities going forward.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:45
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Actually Rincewind what is left before we can take the Restore the Roman Empire decision, as that is essentially the most Old Roman choice we could ever make. It should just be Italy right as we have already reformed the Theme System?
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Mar 20, 2014 22:57
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:
The New Byzantines Steppes and Republics Ha!, must be a cold day in hell for us to agree on something Senator Cyrahzax. In any case this is a comprimise that is best of both situations. The minorities keep their languages and cultural heritage and become partially Greek.
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Mar 20, 2014 22:57
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Horsebanger posted:Actually Rincewind what is left before we can take the Restore the Roman Empire decision, as that is essentially the most Old Roman choice we could ever make. It should just be Italy right as we have already reformed the Theme System? Is it actually Reformed? Last I saw the theme was merely undecayed.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:00
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 I would like to establish an inter-party coalition, the Paint it, White initiative. What is our goal? I see a Black Chamber and I want it painted white No colours any more, I want them to turn white I see the assassins walk by, dressed in their killing robes I have to turn my head, lest my turn to die comes I see a line of coffins and they're all painted black With flowers and a note saying never to come back I see people turn their heads and quickly look away Like a fresh dead corpse, it just happens every day I look inside myself and see my heart is still I see the Black Chamber and must have it painted white Maybe then I'll fade away and not have to face the facts It's not easy facin' up when your whole world is black No more will my deep blue Bosphorus turn a deeper red I can just foresee this thing happening to you Etc., etc. In short, we want an immediate dissolution of the Black Chamber. No more will we allow the state to murder those it finds inconvenient, without due trial, without mercy, without honour. We want transparency in the government, we want accountability amongst the ruling class, we want the free men of this Empire to know no-one will come to kill them in the night on a whim of a Basileus. For starters.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:00
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This I can disagree with. What man would throw away his weapons before a fight? A fool! We cannot afford any weakness or mercy towards our enemies. What is better, a dead sultan, or thousands of dead Romans? What the men of the Black Chamber do is different from military action only in that it costs less lives.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:07
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:This I can disagree with. What man would throw away his weapons before a fight? A fool! We cannot afford any weakness or mercy towards our enemies. What is better, a dead sultan, or thousands of dead Romans? What the men of the Black Chamber do is different from military action only in that it costs less lives. Unitas is on the scene, as despicable as ever. Bark all you want, you twisted offspring of a mole and a dog. If you cannot see how we would throw away nothing but the shackles of our oppression, the tools of our eternal demise, and the most wretched instruments ever vested in the hands of a Christian leader, you are nothing other than blind or idiotic and deserve but the scorn the more noble individuals of this senate are always ready to heap upon you.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:14
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Tevery Best posted:
What Black Chamber? My Dear Senator, you must be mistaken. Emperor Traianos himself said there was no such organisation. Run. Now. Don't turn around, don't stop until you're clear of the city. Give it at least a month: Those with sharp blades have long memories but demanding duties, any that overhear will likely be off renaming the Turkish empire. A laudable initiative but a suicidal one.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:19
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The Black Chamber doesn't exist. The creation of a coalition to stop its nonexistent activities seems counter-productive. What we should be worried about are those hash smoking killers of the east, who are certainly real and I have some pamphlets you probably should read about them. But again, there is no such thing as the Black Chamber and they absolutely are not keeping my loved one's hostage so that I continue to support their activities in the Senate.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:20
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Tevery Best posted:
You know, you might as well just join the Inclusionists, if they ever get off the ground. If the Black Chamber existed, it would probably be fought by them as an institution of terrible calculation, where nobody is safe from the stabbings. Thank God it doesn't exist.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:23
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Governor Samuel nudges the royal spymaster, and nods towards the senator. Him, as soon as operations allow.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:25
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Tevery Best posted:Unitas is on the scene, as despicable as ever. Bark all you want, you twisted offspring of a mole and a dog. If you cannot see how we would throw away nothing but the shackles of our oppression, the tools of our eternal demise, and the most wretched instruments ever vested in the hands of a Christian leader, you are nothing other than blind or idiotic and deserve but the scorn the more noble individuals of this senate are always ready to heap upon you. The New Byzantines Steppes and Republics Fellow Senator for once I must agree with Unitas. To throw away a tool that can be used is foolhardy. Besides if The Black Chamber even existed, which i'm not saying it does, it would be even more foolhardy to openly oppose them.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:26
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And even if there were a Black Chamber, which there most certainly is not, I would think we could all agree that dead Turks are something we could all celebrate. Not that dead Turks are at all attributable to this non-existent Black Chamber rather than natural causes or terrible accidents.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:27
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Tevery Best posted:
Sir, surely you jest! The Black Chamber is nothing more than mere propaganda created by the enemies of the Empire, and anyone who says otherwise is quite obviously insane. That's why they all end up dead very quickly. Insanity.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:32
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 The People *A man dressed in black approaches and whispers into his ear* Oh of course there's no Black Chamber, that's absurd. Now if you excuse me I have business in the east. Please ignore the black chariot waiting for me outside.
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Mar 20, 2014 23:41
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 I for one have grievances with the current banner of the Pragmatists as it looks like something that would adorn the walls of an Azeri preschool (no offense or malice towards good Senator Meinberg or his efforts), and propose the motion that this should be the emblem for our new and glorious faction. Secondly, I motion for the Senate to officially petition the Black Chamber, if it does exist (DISCLAIMER: THIS PROPOSAL IN NO WAY CONFIRMS THE EXISTENCE OF THE BLACK CHAMBER), to quietly silence all supporters of the Paint it White initiative for insisting on wasting precious time and resources working towards the abolition of an imaginary boogeyman. Then again, I've no idea where to send the petition, since the Chamber totally doesn't exist. I guess you put "Black Chamber" on the envelope and the postal service does the rest, like it does with letters to Agios Nikolaios. EDIT: and a hearty congratulations to Senator Meinberg for being the first brave soul to champion our cause. beefart fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 23:49
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beefart posted:
Excellent, my plan falls neatly into place. By putting forth my own terrible design, I have encouraged someone with more skill to generate one with greater artistry! I support this new icon for our glorious new faction.
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Mar 21, 2014 00:04
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Flesnolk posted:You need complete control over these duchies: Latium, Venice, Ferrera, Sicily, Genoa, Capua, Apulia, Thrace, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Athens, Tunis and Croatia. Oh I meant back to the 106ad borders. I've got the SPQR, but I'm so large now that the empire is consistently falling to pieces. Every few years I'm fighting off a holy war and each new ruler has to prove their metal by defeating a massive rebellion or two. EDIT: For that achievement on steam, where you reconquer every land in the old SPQR realm at it's height.
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Mar 21, 2014 00:10
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