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This seems right to me as the architect specified the right materials. It is the builders fault
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Mar 20, 2014 16:15
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If the architect spec'd lags and the builder was all "gently caress it here are nails" why would the architect be responsible? The building inspector should be held liable though, I wouldn't mind seeing that start happening so inspectors start doing their actual jobs.
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Mar 20, 2014 16:21
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Elendil004 posted:If the architect spec'd lags and the builder was all "gently caress it here are nails" why would the architect be responsible? The building inspector should be held liable though, I wouldn't mind seeing that start happening so inspectors start doing their actual jobs. The architect was presumably held responsible because they charged a fee to keep an eye on things and then (apparently) only watched for look-and-feel kinds of problems, not structural integrity problems. Depending on what the contract said the architect's job was that could well be violation of contract -- you aren't doing the job you were paid to do.
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Mar 20, 2014 16:48
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Have any of these builders ever heard of LedgerLoks and TimberLOKs? It can't get any easier (certainly a lot less trouble than lag bolts...no pre-drilling) and they are structurally rated.
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Mar 20, 2014 16:56
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:The architect was presumably held responsible because they charged a fee to keep an eye on things and then (apparently) only watched for look-and-feel kinds of problems, not structural integrity problems. Depending on what the contract said the architect's job was that could well be violation of contract -- you aren't doing the job you were paid to do. The contract seems like a mess: quote:
At least from the bits excerpted in the article, I don't see how he wins that appeal. He's agreed to determine if the work is performed in accordance with the contract, and to assure that the workmanship and materials used conform with the contract document. The contract doesn't require him to "make exhaustive or continuous on-site inspections," but so what? He's still signed on to the responsibility of making sure the workmanship is up to snuff. "I agreed to make sure the work was done properly, but I didn't agree to actually inspect the work to make sure it was done properly" is almost incoherent: how do you do the former without doing the latter? Apparently, just take a few photos, blindly sign pay stubs, and hope for the best. And this argument is bullshit: quote:Allensworth, who teaches construction law at the University of Texas Law School and is a partner in the firm of Allensworth and Porter, said if the jury's verdict against Black stands, it will have a chilling effect on architects. Or maybe architects don't sign contracts like Black signed which *make them responsible for verifying the work was done properly*. If you don't want that responsibility, don't sign the loving contract accepting it.
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Mar 20, 2014 16:56
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HortonNash posted:The architect won his appeal. You mean like having liability in your designs? I know that this is a case where the builder didn't follow the plans and is a little off. But if you pay an architect extra cash to ensure that they follow your plans, he should be kinda culpable. Edit: yes that contract is garbage. I don't think that went through a lawyer or if it did he/she should be in trouble. "Pay us more to make sure poo poo is done a certain way, but we don't need to *actually* see it" Time was architects were the people with all the liability, which is why they were paid so well. They has been pushing liability off on the builders for a long while. ptier fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 16:59
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Was the inspector held at all liable in that case? Was the work even inspected?
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Mar 20, 2014 17:36
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Phanatic posted:The contract seems like a mess: This is all boilerplate contract language. It does not require the architect to be on-site daily inspecting every aspect of the work, that would be insane. There is no way he can inspect every nail and anchor on the job. He performs periodic inspections of the work to make sure it generally appears to be in compliance with the drawings and specs, and if there are obvious violations then he calls them out. Literally every project in the US includes language like this, and I'm sure in his reviews he had language like "this appears to be in compliance although it is not possible to inspect every element of a project". This is 100% the liability of the builders for not following the plans. ptier posted:You mean like having liability in your designs? I know that this is a case where the builder didn't follow the plans and is a little off. But if you pay an architect extra cash to ensure that they follow your plans, he should be kinda culpable. It is the liability of the builders to follow the plans, yes. E: Also, you may be surprised about who is making the big bucks if you look up incomes of architects vs general contractors. Papercut fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 17:59
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My understanding is you only make money as an architect if you own/are a partner in the company. I worked with two architects that came over to the GC side of things to make better money.
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Mar 20, 2014 18:45
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Architecture has the lowest pay vs schooling ratio of just about any professional career. It's all the work-reliability of being a self-employed artist and extremely little creative fun. If you work for a firm it's rarely long term, you get hired or fired month to month depending on if they need you for a project. If you're the senior partner or owner of a large firm you'll make some money, but only because you're paying all the architects below you like $25 an hour and everyone else even less, also you fire them all if you're having a slow month. Also tons of developers are utter poo poo and don't pay their architects. The last firm I worked at had about $90k outstanding from a few people who used shell companies that then went "bankrupt" if a project didn't move forward. The developer would then personally not lose anything, write off all the money he owned, then start a new company for his next project. Yet architects are so desperate for work there's no black-list for lovely clients. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Mar 20, 2014 |
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Mar 20, 2014 19:13
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You have to be kidding, $25/hour would be fantastic. Most K-12 education pays less than half that and takes a Master's in a lot of states.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:33
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Splizwarf posted:You have to be kidding, $25/hour would be fantastic. Most K-12 education pays less than half that and takes a Master's in a lot of states. Move to NJ, that is starting salary for teachers.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:43
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Getting a credential in a different state is not always trivial, but yeah, $12.50 an hour for a credentialed teacher with an MS is horrible. Teachers are chronically underpaid but that's ridiculous.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:51
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FogHelmut posted:Move to NJ, that is starting salary for teachers. For the typical teacher, $25/hour would mean between $50k and maybe $65k a year. e: welp, the internet says that apparently some schools in NJ actually do start at $50k (  ) and that NJ has the highest average starting salary in the US. So you're right!However, this also means everywhere else in the US pays shittier. 
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Mar 21, 2014 00:06
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I think the average starting salary in South Dakota is around 30k a year, if you still want to make that point. 
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Mar 21, 2014 00:11
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Keep in mind that elementary school teachers typically don't automatically have work for 10 weeks of summer, so the annual salary is for ~40 weeks of work rather than ~50 for a normal salaried worker. Teachers can sometimes pick up extra work doing summer school to fill in the time. On the other hand, teachers also spend a lot of uncompensated time after work grading papers and doing prep.
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Mar 21, 2014 01:23
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Yeah, people like to bring up the summer as "more time off than normal people get" but most teachers put in 10 to 12 hours a weekday during the rest of the year. Anyone teaching AP sections is likely doing the same again either Saturday or Sunday.Mr. Despair posted:I think the average starting salary in South Dakota is around 30k a year, if you still want to make that point. Virginia too, plus it's a Right-To-Work (ie unions GTFO also gently caress your "due process") state and the school budgets are mostly funded by property taxes, so in most districts there's been both a raise freeze and a hiring freeze for the last 7 or 8 years. Teaching in modern public education is an obviously-addictive and fairly destructive drug. Sorry for the derail; TLDR you could do a lot worse out of college than becoming an architect. Obligatory joke about an English degree. Splizwarf fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 01:34
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Splizwarf posted:but most teachers put in 10 to 12 hours a weekday And this is different from a lot of other "exempt" salaried workers exactly how?
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Mar 21, 2014 02:03
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Motronic posted:And this is different from a lot of other "exempt" salaried workers exactly how? They get paid like poo poo? Teachers have a disproportionately terrible work:pay ratio.
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Mar 21, 2014 02:22
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Splizwarf posted:Virginia too, plus it's a Right-To-Work (ie unions GTFO also gently caress your "due process") state Ahem.  I believe you're thinking of At-Will Employment. It's nice to see somebody saying Right-to-work correctly for once.From the schadenfreude thread: 
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Mar 21, 2014 02:24
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:They get paid like poo poo? Teachers have a disproportionately terrible work:pay ratio. This is in relation to all of those other exempt employees not getting the summer off. Or "off" if you pick up other gigs. Are teachers typically underpaid? Absolutely. Are they unique or anywhere close to the worst example of this type of thing amongst the academically educated workforce? Hell no.
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Mar 21, 2014 02:28
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Motronic posted:And this is different from a lot of other "exempt" salaried workers exactly how? It's not. The point was that a teacher making $30k/year is pulling down ~$12.50/hour in a position that typically requires 6+ years and >$50k of college; originally posted as an amused argument to quote:Architecture has the lowest pay vs schooling ratio of just about any professional career [...] at $25/hour. I don't know what you're getting at by 'exempt', overtime I guess? I wasn't trying to make any points about that. 
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Mar 21, 2014 02:33
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Motronic posted:This is in relation to all of those other exempt employees not getting the summer off. Or "off" if you pick up other gigs. quote:Are teachers typically underpaid? Absolutely. Are they unique or anywhere close to the worst example of this type of thing amongst the academically educated workforce? Hell no. They're unique in that having good teachers is absolutely vital to a functioning society at a fundamental level (like, more fundamental than, say, sewage workers) and yet we treat them like poo poo anyway.
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Mar 21, 2014 02:55
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:They're unique in that having good teachers is absolutely vital to a functioning society at a fundamental level (like, more fundamental than, say, sewage workers) and yet we treat them like poo poo anyway. Wow....I see there's nowhere left go go here with a comparison like that. Too many intended or unintended misunderstandings of long-vs-short term needs with overtones of intellectual superiority to boot. In any case, this isn't the thread for it so I'll just stop here. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 21, 2014 03:02
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MisterOblivious posted:Somebody dying Uhm... did I just watch somebody...
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Mar 21, 2014 03:13
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Probably not, it looks like the roof framing stopped short of the guy's chair and the other dude seems to have swum off. What the hell was that clip from, though? A movie? Real life?
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Mar 21, 2014 03:16
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ColHannibal posted:Uhm... did I just watch somebody... You can see the guy moving his arms through the framework. He's still sitting in his plastic chair.
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Mar 21, 2014 03:18
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Oh no the beer didn't make it!
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Mar 21, 2014 04:13
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Hey, careful, man, there's a beverage here!
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Mar 21, 2014 04:33
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Fantastic. So you can not make a living wage at teaching, and then in the summer you can try to pick up a lovely part-time job like wait staff or making sandwiches at Subway, and not make a living wage there too! *I am friends with numerous teachers. Their starting base pay is around $35k/year, which is pretty good for starting, and if they pick up coaching one extra curricular activity it adds about $5k per year. More importantly, the unions play the retirement game and 4 years before you retire you get gigantic loving raises so that your pension is huge. Oh, and in Illinois they don't have to pay into social security, they just put 10% into the pension fund. So their pay rate is not equivalent to mine.
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Mar 21, 2014 04:52
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Hey! Shut the hell up about teaching! I come to this forum to get away from that poo poo! (I'm a teacher)
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Mar 21, 2014 06:00
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MisterOblivious posted:poo poo falling down I am trying to do some back of napkin math here about the forces in play there. It is hard to tell how long the span is and the amount of sag because of the angle of the video, but I'm guessing about 1000-3000 lbs of horizontal force is applied to that column. Is it considered crappy construction if we don't overbuild enough to accommodate idiots with slacklines? Just think, we were probably just one $3 piece of rebar away from not having that hilarious video.
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Mar 21, 2014 06:57
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CopperHound posted:I am trying to do some back of napkin math here about the forces in play there. It is hard to tell how long the span is and the amount of sag because of the angle of the video, but I'm guessing about 1000-3000 lbs of horizontal force is applied to that column. Given the situation of that column (i.e. outdoors, next to a Then again, my inclination is to drastically overbuild whenever given the option. EDIT: VVV well if they can't be bothered to fill their giant hole in the ground with champagne, then they're clearly not high society, right? TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 15:05
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Given the situation of that column (i.e. outdoors, next to a poor), Do you wear a tophat and monocle? 
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Mar 21, 2014 15:18
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:EDIT: VVV well if they can't be bothered to fill their giant hole in the ground with champagne, then they're clearly not high society, right?
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Mar 21, 2014 18:09
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CopperHound posted:Is it considered crappy construction if we don't overbuild enough to accommodate idiots with slacklines? Just think, we were probably just one $3 piece of rebar away from not having that hilarious video. Well, I don't know. It looks like it was made by stacking pavers on top of each other with no reinforcement and that seems like something that's not up to code. Using nails on the shingles wouldn't have been a terrible idea either. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHVX0GcszJA
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Mar 21, 2014 18:34
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how do you nail clay tiles? Actually, I can't tell for sure, I just assumed it was clay because it wasn't nailed. CopperHound fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 18:40
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CopperHound posted:how do you nail clay tiles? There's a hole at the top of the tile. 
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Mar 21, 2014 18:58
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Yeah those are spanish-style clay tiles. I could be wrong, but the (blurry)plant in the foreground of that video looks like it could be seagrape, which means south coastal Florida. Which explains everything in that video.
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Mar 21, 2014 18:58
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They look an awful lot like clay to me. But either way, there's not much to nail the tiles to.
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Mar 21, 2014 18:59
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