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Pandemonium posted:Hijacking of this movement by DPP is well under way. Friend posted pictures on Facebook of her and her husband in several locations, and there were "Free A-Bian" banners in almost every picture.
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Mar 23, 2014 18:46
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I'm watching the stream now and seeing groups of people being led out, so I assume the building is being cleared? Unfortunately I am a Bad Person and can't read Chinese.
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Mar 23, 2014 18:49
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Yeah, that'll be the third wave of the clearout. Anyone want to take bets on how many more bloodied faces we'll see after this round?
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Mar 23, 2014 19:02
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https://www.facebook.com/hokwongwei He's a reporter for CNA live blogging it on FB. Check it out.
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Mar 23, 2014 19:06
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Some of the people that have come outside have been posting that there were cops specifically beating people who were blocked from cameras, and that cops doing the hitting had ripped their badge numbers off their sleeves. No proof from inside that I've seen yet, but that guy that on the news who was prone on the ground... The cops beat him to near death. He's unconscious with bilateral wheezing and stridor, having/had a focal seizure, and has blood/air in his chest cavity. e: estimated number of injured doubled, there are still injured inside. Some guy talking on the 濟南路 stream said cops were pulling people around and told them to put their phones away "because they are expensive", then the beating started after all the cameras and poo poo were put away sentimental snail fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Mar 23, 2014 |
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Mar 23, 2014 19:54
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Jesus loving Christ. I mean holy poo poo. Goddamn.
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Mar 23, 2014 20:00
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e: or maybe not. some news was posted about an injured guy but was proved false.
sentimental snail fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Mar 23, 2014 |
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Mar 23, 2014 22:07
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I'm seeing a lot of bad information in English on facebook right now and I hope one of the people here who is better informed on Taiwanese politics and the protests in general could explain precisely what is, and is not, happening. It's my understanding that this treaty is a continuation of the one signed in 2010 that was unpopular then and is unpopular now with the big concerns being that China is getting unprecedented access to Taiwan and Taiwan's government isn't following the will of the people by passing it. What it doesn't do is reduce Taiwan to a Hong Kong style extension of the Mainland. However, the concern is that this is a step in that direction. Further, I'm seeing nonsense about foreigners being barred from the protests unless they have press credentials. I don't think it's a wise idea for any foreigner to go near the protests for fear of having visas revoked, but I've seen nothing to suggest that foreigners near the area are getting harassed or detained. Anyone have anything to substantiate this?
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Mar 24, 2014 05:39
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Yeah I saw her posting as well, and don't want to believe the press credential thing because of the source, but it could definitely be true at this point. Police have been beating people, including the medical students doing the free first aid apparently, and that might be a time for whitey to just kindly get the gently caress out for a while. The concern is that this would give China a lot of access to our economy, and media especially. The "become like Hong Kong" thing is more about how China uses school textbooks and the news media in Hong Kong to "harmonize" things. The protesters have pretty reasonable demands and Ma has responded with "Eh?" and a shrug.
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Mar 24, 2014 05:54
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I think the protesters are as reasonable as they can be. They've stated clearly what they want have gotten gently caress all in response. There's actually been several people on my feed posting similar things, not just that one we share. I understand the fear in general that giving China any access to Taiwan is a bad thing, but I also disagree with the use of hyperbole in describing the situation. Anyway, could someone please explain to me the differences between the President, Vice President, Premiere, and Vice Premiere? I understand that the President is the only elected position out of those and I assume the VP has roles similar to those of the US VP, but I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell the premiere and vice premiere are supposed to do? Wikipedia tells me that they're appointed positions, but that's about it. I tried asking at work, but the response I got from my Taiwanese coworker was, "Honestly I don't know."
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Mar 24, 2014 06:00
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Atlas Hugged posted:Anyway, could someone please explain to me the differences between the President, Vice President, Premiere, and Vice Premiere? The VP is basically just the VP. Lee Teng-Hui was CCK's VP, hence his becoming president. Nothing else really special here. Obviously the VP is chosen (in theory) by the President-to-be as his running mate. The President of the Legislative Yuan, currently Wang Jin-pyng, is basically Speaker of the House. Pretty sure this is an appointed position. The Premier is to all intents and purposes the Prime Minister. He is the head of the Executive Yuan, and basically in charge of both that and of Executive-Legislative communication. Also appointed. The Vice Premier, as far as I know, is basically just the Premier's deputy. Presumably appointed, but I'll be buggered if I know by whom.
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Mar 24, 2014 06:41
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This is seriously the most confusing political system I've ever read about.
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Mar 24, 2014 06:45
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Atlas Hugged posted:This is seriously the most confusing political system I've ever read about. It's like someone had an overview of the US constitution and an overview of the parliamentary system printed out on individual sheets of paper in a binder together and they all fell out and got mixed together and someone beat the end result with a hammer until it made some sort of sense.
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Mar 24, 2014 06:50
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Eh, the president's the boss, the EY is senior management, the Control Yuan's accounting, the Judicial Yuan is security, and the Examination Yuan's HR. Can't figure a place that's right for the LY though.
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Mar 24, 2014 06:57
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Yeah, Sun Yat Sen actually spent quite some time in the States (at least Hawaii, though it wasn't a State then) and sorta half copied the US constitution with a bunch of other stuff thrown in. Taiwan's political system is still pretty understandable from a Western republic/democracy point of view though, it's just a variant, rather than a totally different type of system. It's not like China where huge swaths of the government are just rubber stamp organizations set up to fool the rest of the world into thinking it's a democracy; Taiwan actually is a democracy, if a sloppy one. Somehow I don't think anybody posted it directly in this thread, but a portion of the protesters dismantled the barricades and started occupying the Executive Yuan (whose function is described by other posters above) last night and this morning the police have started using violent methods (beating with sticks, tear gas, spraying with water hoses, etc) to remove the students. By 8:00 or so this morning the Executive Yuan was emptied of students, although there are still students and police struggling in the general area around outside the Executive Yuan. I was just saying that Taiwan was super cool with this peaceful huge protest, and now this  Really hope everyone is staying safe.Atlas Hugged posted:Further, I'm seeing nonsense about foreigners being barred from the protests unless they have press credentials. I don't think it's a wise idea for any foreigner to go near the protests for fear of having visas revoked, but I've seen nothing to suggest that foreigners near the area are getting harassed or detained. Anyone have anything to substantiate this? ACTUALLY, this was discussed prior so I went and dug up the relevant law and also conferred with a buddy of mine who used to be an immigration official, and this is the conclusion we came to: ROC Law posted:【中華民國入出國及移民法第 二十九 條】 My own mediocre translation posted:Republic of China Immigration Law Article 29 Key words here being "legal residents" (i.e., that have a valid ARC) and "legal protest activities" (so things such as destroying public property or occupying a Yuan would not qualify). If you meet both of the above conditions you are legally in the clear. I went down to see the protests almost every day last week and there were a decent number of foreigners around. Unfortunately I think last week was the ideal time for heading down and observing the protest area; now that the police have resorted to brutality to resolve the issue it's really, really not safe to hang around there anymore.
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Mar 24, 2014 07:22
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quote:This is seriously the most confusing political system I've ever read about. Not really. There are five branches of the Taiwanese government. "Branch" and "Yuan" are pretty much direct translations. The Legislative Yuan is a Unicameral legislature. It's almost exactly analagous to the US congress or British Parliament, except for the only having one house thing. The Executive Yuan is the cabinet. It performs all of the duties that the Cabinet in the US performs for the president. The only difference is that the president of Taiwan is not directly part of the Executive branch of government. Instead, that branch is administered by the Premier, Jiang Yi-huah. Anything that starts with Ministry or Department is part of this branch of government. The Judicial Yuan is the Supreme Court/other courts. Just like in the US. Appointed by president, ratified by legislature. So up until this point nothing requires you to understand anything that's not really very similar to the way the US works. Now we have two additional branches of governemnt. The Control Yuan Think of them as kind of the Ministry of Checks and Balances. They handle impeachments and investigations. Like Government Internal Affairs. President appoints. Legislature confirms. The Examination Yuan These guys run civil services exams in an ancient tradition of testing into cushy government desk jobs that goes all the way back to Imperial China.
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Mar 24, 2014 07:40
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The point that I found confusing was the separation between the head of state and the executive because it seems like you'd naturally have a power struggle between the two. It's not confusing in what the terms mean, it's confusing in how it would actually operate and how important each of those four positions would be.
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Mar 24, 2014 08:08
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Atlas Hugged posted:The point that I found confusing was the separation between the head of state and the executive because it seems like you'd naturally have a power struggle between the two. It's not confusing in what the terms mean, it's confusing in how it would actually operate and how important each of those four positions would be. You are correct. "The Constitution does not clearly define whether the president is more powerful than the premier, as it names the Executive Yuan (headed by the premier) as the "highest administrative authority" with oversight over domestic matters while giving the president powers as commander-in-chief of the military and authority over foreign affairs." So basically you can look at it in the way we look at Vice President of the United States. If Dick Cheney is VP, then it's the most powerful office in the land, if Joe Biden is VP then it's largely ceremonial and only has the slightests of effects on actual policy.
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Mar 24, 2014 08:46
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Atlas Hugged posted:The point that I found confusing was the separation between the head of state and the executive because it seems like you'd naturally have a power struggle between the two. It's not confusing in what the terms mean, it's confusing in how it would actually operate and how important each of those four positions would be. On top of that, being Taiwan there's one thing you can rely on: CKS hosed things up. Greedy poo poo that he was, he basically took over most of the duties of the premier, leaving the premiership with a bunch of influence and poo poo-all to actually do.
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Mar 24, 2014 09:49
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Confession time. How many of you have black Facebook profile pics now? And is that meant to be some sort of online show of solidarity? I have seen a bunch of foreigners change their profile pics this morning and this afternoon, and I must say it is one of the more eye-rolling, band-wagoning things I've seen so far.
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Mar 24, 2014 09:54
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I have never once changed my facebook pic to show support because it seems like the most useless kind of lip service ever.
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Mar 24, 2014 09:58
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I changed mine to show support because I had friends who did and I support those friends. I know a foreigner who crawled into the legislature itself, so maybe I have a higher threshhold for eye-rolling.
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Mar 24, 2014 10:17
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Spanish Matlock posted:I changed mine to show support because I had friends who did and I support those friends. I know a foreigner who crawled into the legislature itself, so maybe I have a higher threshhold for eye-rolling. No. And unless that foreigner was covering the event, they do not belong anywhere near this movement. This is not our fight, not in the least. Atlas Hugged posted:I have never once changed my facebook pic to show support because it seems like the most useless kind of lip service ever. Yes.
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Mar 24, 2014 10:31
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Pandemonium posted:I have seen a bunch of foreigners change their profile pics this morning and this afternoon, and I must say it is one of the more eye-rolling, band-wagoning things I've seen so far.
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Mar 24, 2014 10:44
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Pandemonium posted:Unless that foreigner was covering the event, they do not belong anywhere near this movement. This is not our fight, not in the least. Obviously. That's the point. It's fine to support what the protesters are doing. What that guy did was dumb, self-aggrandizing bullshit.
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Mar 24, 2014 12:35
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TetsuoTW posted:The premier is basically the general manager to the president's CEO. The president is officially in charge of everything, the premier does the actual work. So yeah, power struggle city in theory, but being that the premiership is an appointed position, you're only ever going to get the president handing it to one of his homeboys. I just realized there are parallels to the Russian system, so you could get a Putin/Medvedev situation where the president is elected but awards the premiereship to the man really running the show. Hooray cronyism!
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Mar 24, 2014 13:27
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http://www.hokwongwei.com/cpost/?p=517 Excellent blow by blow account.
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Mar 24, 2014 16:06
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drat, are the taiyangbing in Pingdong really that good?
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Mar 25, 2014 10:47
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No, it's the cake from Pingdong that's the point! Those 150 boxes of 太陽餅 will never suffice! That guy also had some porn movies in his office, but he's not complaining of those getting stolen for some reason...
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Mar 25, 2014 15:25
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Atlas Hugged posted:I'm seeing a lot of bad information in English on facebook right now and I hope one of the people here who is better informed on Taiwanese politics and the protests in general could explain precisely what is, and is not, happening. I haven't posted in this thread in a long time but I thought I'd pop in and see what people here were saying about this. It seems everyone in this thread is smart enough to see the bull from the bullshit as it were. I'm writing my thesis about the 2016 elections so this is a pretty interesting time and I'm curious to see how it will all play out. I've been down at the protests a couple times, there's usually a couple foreigners down there. The Executive Yuan occupation was a bit more violent in nature so that one got ugly but I'm actually amazed at the resistance shown by police given that people hurt firecrackers at them. I'm American so my french classmate and I were both shocked that everyone wasn't teargassed out on the first night. The early stages were extremely disorganized but it seems like they're getting their act together, the DPP still hasn't done a very good job capitalizing on the efforts of the students but that's kinda par for the course at this point.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:32
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TetsuoTW posted:drat, are the taiyangbing in Pingdong really that good? Yes  So good that the Internet had to dig up a meme at least half a decade old.
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Mar 25, 2014 23:10
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PaybackJack posted:I haven't posted in this thread in a long time but I thought I'd pop in and see what people here were saying about this. It seems everyone in this thread is smart enough to see the bull from the bullshit as it were. I'm writing my thesis about the 2016 elections so this is a pretty interesting time and I'm curious to see how it will all play out. I've been down at the protests a couple times, there's usually a couple foreigners down there. The Executive Yuan occupation was a bit more violent in nature so that one got ugly but I'm actually amazed at the resistance shown by police given that people hurt firecrackers at them. I'm American so my french classmate and I were both shocked that everyone wasn't teargassed out on the first night. The early stages were extremely disorganized but it seems like they're getting their act together, the DPP still hasn't done a very good job capitalizing on the efforts of the students but that's kinda par for the course at this point. I had a good chat with a bitter KMT voter last night. For him, he's mad about "the process of justice" and thinks Ma is up to something because of the urgency with which he wants to get the agreement passed. But he also wasn't aware of that DPPs dickheadedness in the LY leading up to the KMT just saying gently caress it to the vote. He strongly identified himself as Taiwanese, but said he actually would prefer to cooperate with the Chinese when it came down to it because, "gently caress the Japanese," which is honestly the first time I've heard that sentiment in Taiwan. He didn't think this agreement completely sold Taiwan out to China, but considered it a major first step. Basically, everything after this one is just a formality. But this was just one dude's opinion.
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Mar 26, 2014 01:32
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Hey guys any updates? I just read that Ma is willing to talk with the students. Anything else?
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Mar 26, 2014 11:59
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The students said "we want to talk to Ma," Ma said "sure, as long as there are no conditions going in," the students said "ok, here are our conditions" and that was the end of that.
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Mar 26, 2014 12:21
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Kind of. As I understand it, Ma offered to host a meeting with protest representatives at the Presidential Office, they responded by saying if there's going to be a meeting, it's going to be in public. It's a dick move on the protest organizers' part, but it's also transparently obvious that Ma's not actually interested in negotiating anything. [Edit: quote:During our press conference yesterday, we noted that we were willing to enter into talks without setting any preconditions. [...] However, following our press conference yesterday, we received notice that the latest bipartisan talks hosted by Speaker Wang Jin-Pyng had broken down. In response, we rightfully believe that President Ma has failed to act in good faith - on one hand asking us to sit down in dialogue, but on the other, forcing the breakdown of bipartisan negotiations. [...] We still welcome the chance for a dialogue at the Presidential Office, on the condition that the Ma administration acts in good faith and removes the threat of party disciplinary measures on their legislators. Also the students had been calling for talks (with preconditions - pull back the agreement, institute supervisory systems for cross-strait agreements) the entire time, Ma kind of sort of acknowledged the protest's existence on Saturday, poo poo went foul on Saturday night, and then he started gesturing towards talking to them. sub supau fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Mar 26, 2014 |
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Mar 26, 2014 12:46
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Also there's apparently a protest against the protest organized for Saturday. e: And Taiwan's very own Cousin Itt, convicted criminal Qiu Yi started leaking air again, and this time it sounded awfully like someone confusing sunflowers for a pile of bananas. sub supau fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Mar 26, 2014 |
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Mar 26, 2014 12:51
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TetsuoTW posted:Also there's apparently a protest against the protest organized for Saturday. Anti-nuclear protest soon too I thought. Or is the one you mentioned anti-anti nuclear.
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Mar 26, 2014 13:38
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Some posters/banners put up around NCCU (政大) today. http://imgur.com/a/O3rOa
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Mar 26, 2014 14:53
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I went and listened to some of the speakers tonight. They had some real good ones- not bad on the educational side of things either. At the very least, these protesters are getting a high quality civics course. Also 太陽餅 have officially jumped the drat shark.
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Mar 26, 2014 17:41
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Uhhh I do believe you mean bananas
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Mar 27, 2014 05:54
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