Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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Catsplosion: Aug 19, 2007; I am become Dwarf, the destroyer of cats.

Spoilers Below posted:

I could see Gandalf

Well Sauron was a maia like Gandalf. So Gandalf would definitely be able to and would be just as powerful as Sauron if he wielded it.

# ? Mar 25, 2014 10:43

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# ? May 9, 2024 00:32

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Found a letter of Tolkien's that deals with this subject:

From a Letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (draft), September 1963 posted:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him � being an emissary of the Powers
and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of
Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and
supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.
But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with
imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen
in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous
thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now
adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient
generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by
force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine
the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On
one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron
was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and
expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been
for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken
from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the
master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained
'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the
benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great)

Unfortunately that seems to be the end of the letter, so Gandalf-as-Ring-Lord isn't expanded upon further.

# ? Mar 25, 2014 11:04

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

euphronius posted:

I understand Bombadil as evidence that the Elves understanding of the gods and creation of the world (as transmitted fictionally through JRRT's works [which are all from the POV of elves {and closely associated men}]) is incomplete (and thus somewhat flawed.)

Relatedly we don't have a good explanation or understanding of Orcs because the Elves didn't care about Orcs. And we don't know about the East and South because the Elves never lived in the South and lived in the East like 8 billion years ago and left.

Gandalf actually mentions the fact that Elves have are self-involved in writing their histories but can we really blame anyone for writing down what they do and not going out to find and write down what other people are doing? They're elvish historians not elvish anthropologists. It's not their fault that nobody else was writing things down.

# ? Mar 25, 2014 11:30

Catsplosion: Aug 19, 2007; I am become Dwarf, the destroyer of cats.

Arglebargle III posted:

Gandalf actually mentions the fact that Elves have are self-involved in writing their histories but can we really blame anyone for writing down what they do and not going out to find and write down what other people are doing? They're elvish historians not elvish anthropologists. It's not their fault that nobody else was writing things down.

Poor elves. They get blamed for everything.

# ? Mar 25, 2014 11:38

TildeATH: Oct 21, 2010; by Lowtax

Radio! posted:

Found a letter of Tolkien's that deals with this subject:

Unfortunately that seems to be the end of the letter, so Gandalf-as-Ring-Lord isn't expanded upon further.

Wow, I never saw that. That's great.

# ? Mar 25, 2014 15:17

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Radio! posted:

Found a letter of Tolkien's that deals with this subject:

Unfortunately that seems to be the end of the letter, so Gandalf-as-Ring-Lord isn't expanded upon further.

Now I want to read about Ring Lord Gandalf unleashing goose-stepping Hobbits against Middle Earth.

# ? Mar 25, 2014 15:29

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Arglebargle III posted:

Gandalf actually mentions the fact that Elves have are self-involved in writing their histories but can we really blame anyone for writing down what they do and not going out to find and write down what other people are doing? They're elvish historians not elvish anthropologists. It's not their fault that nobody else was writing things down.

Holy crap that's from like a year ago.

That letter from JRRT I think is good evidence for my position last page.

# ? Mar 25, 2014 16:36

redshirt: Aug 11, 2007

"The Lord of the Rings" refers to Sauron, right?

If so, I've long pondered what the title actually means. What is it saying, really? Other than "Sauron".

# ? Mar 25, 2014 19:48

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

It refers to how he is the creator and ultimate master of the One, the Seven, and the Nine (but not the Three).

# ? Mar 25, 2014 20:42

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

You could maybe also make an argument that Frodo was the ultimate "lord of the rings" as he destroyed the One and broke their collective power. If there's a twist in the title's meaning I'd say that's it. I suspect somewhere there's a letter from Tolkien on this subject debunking that theory and just saying "It's Sauron" though.

# ? Mar 25, 2014 21:11

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

In Fellowship of the Rings they call Frodo the Lord of the Rings, then Gandalf (or was it Elrond?) says that that title refers to Sauron, because he alone is the one with authority over them, and proposed instead calling him "ring-bearer." Calling him the lord of something he destroyed would be rather more Roman than English, anyway.

# ? Mar 25, 2014 21:13

Juaguocio: Jun 5, 2005; Oh, David...

Plus, the Red Book Of Westmarch is also known as The Downfall Of The Lord Of The Rings. That title even showed up in the RotK film.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 00:06

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Frodo did not destroy the Ring though. Frodo was overtaken by the Ring in the end.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 00:18

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

That reminds me of the first part of the letter I quoted earlier, where Tolkien directly addresses Frodo's failure to destroy the Ring at the end:

quote:

Frodo indeed 'failed' as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he
gave in, ratted. I do not say 'simple minds' with contempt: they often see with clarity the simple
truth and the absolute ideal to which effort must be directed, even if it is unattainable. Their
weakness, however, is twofold. They do not perceive the complexity of any given situation in Time,
in which an absolute ideal is enmeshed. They tend to forget that strange element in the World that
we call Pity or Mercy, which is also an absolute requirement in moral judgement (since it is present
in the Divine nature). In its highest exercise it belongs to God. For finite judges of imperfect
knowledge it must lead to the use of two different scales of 'morality'. To ourselves we must present
the absolute ideal without compromise, for we do not know our own limits of natural strength
(+grace), and if we do not aim at the highest we shall certainly fall short of the utmost that we could
achieve. To others, in any case of which we know enough to make a judgement, we must apply a
scale tempered by 'mercy': that is, since we can with good will do this without the bias inevitable in
judgements of ourselves, we must estimate the limits of another's strength and weigh this against
the force of particular circumstances.�
I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring
would reach its maximum � impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long
possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he
could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation
in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his
sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy
towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.
...
Frodo undertook his quest out of love � to save the world he knew from disaster at his own
expense, if he could; and also in complete humility, acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate
to the task. His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on
the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that. I do not myself see that the breaking
of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a moral failure than the
breaking of his body would have been � say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling
rock

Source is The Letters of JRR Tolkien edited by Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien.

Radio! fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Mar 26, 2014

# ? Mar 26, 2014 00:30

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Pretty sure that link is filez, man. That book's still very readily purchaseable.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 00:35

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

I actually ran into this same question once with another ebook in old GBS. The mod told me since the book was readily findable on google it wasn't a problem to link. If Hieronymous Alloy feels otherwise though I'll take it down.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 01:23

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Radio! posted:

I actually ran into this same question once with another ebook in old GBS. The mod told me since the book was readily findable on google it wasn't a problem to link. If Hieronymous Alloy feels otherwise though I'll take it down.

I ran this by the admins and, yeah, let's edit out the direct link. If it's readily findable on google you can just say "you can find a link to [thing] easily on google" and that's fine; if it isn't readily findable on google then we risk the forum turning into a warez site.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 04:14

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Radio! posted:

I actually ran into this same question once with another ebook in old GBS. The mod told me since the book was readily findable on google it wasn't a problem to link. If Hieronymous Alloy feels otherwise though I'll take it down.

That's the oddest reasoning I've ever heard. Everything is readily findable on google.

Since you removed the link can you mention the source it was? I assume Letters but wanted to be sure.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 09:41

100YrsofAttitude: Apr 29, 2013

This is such a good series. I recently re-listened to the LotR on audio book and it gave me a whole new appreciation for the poetry, which was always a bit tough to get through. Unfortunately, I don't have any real memories of growing up with the series discovering it only after seeing the Fellowship of the Ring. I'm always a bit ashamed by the fact and it's a bit disappointing that because of the movies I have trouble making my own mental image of some the characters and places, but thankfully Tolkien's power of description is quite elaborate so that helps. I feel the movies were pretty well cast for the most part, except maybe in the case of the hobbits. The plus is that I can see both movie and books as fairly separate since I saw the weaker medium of the two first.

It was always odd I missed reading this originally considering I read mythology non-stop as a kid. It's a large reason why I find the Silmarillion so readable and why I love it now. I'd never really recommend it to people who aren't history buffs or into myths because frankly it's not an easy read.

Anyway my question is in regards to translations. I recently ran across the French version of the Hobbit and was already surprised to see the Shire called Le Comt�. Same thing happened in the subtitles of the French version of the film. Considering the weight and history behind so many names in Tolkien's mythos it's weird to think that every language around the world is only familiar with specific names. I'm curious to find out what the translations for other proper names were in other languages and how exactly Tolkien dealt with this, considering he was alive for most of the publications.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 10:01

Canemacar: Mar 8, 2008

Thats actually a good question. Tolkiens works are so steeped in english literary history that I could see some of the subtext getting lost in translation.
Speaking of, I read a post on another forum that claimed Tolkien's dedication to his love of the old Germanic languages was so great that he deliberately avoided using words that came into english through the romance languages. Any truth to this?

# ? Mar 26, 2014 10:35

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

100YrsofAttitude posted:

Anyway my question is in regards to translations. I recently ran across the French version of the Hobbit and was already surprised to see the Shire called Le Comt�. Same thing happened in the subtitles of the French version of the film. Considering the weight and history behind so many names in Tolkien's mythos it's weird to think that every language around the world is only familiar with specific names. I'm curious to find out what the translations for other proper names were in other languages and how exactly Tolkien dealt with this, considering he was alive for most of the publications.

Well first you might tell us what the French name means to give us some context.

Second, Tolkien provided translations for place names in a bunch if different languages, though I'm sure some translators ignored him. He didn't necessarily think a place name should remain unmolested, because the place names often have meaning that's more important. So he would have been on board with the translation using a word describing a place like a medieval shire

# ? Mar 26, 2014 10:48

100YrsofAttitude: Apr 29, 2013

rypakal posted:

Well first you might tell us what the French name means to give us some context.

Second, Tolkien provided translations for place names in a bunch if different languages, though I'm sure some translators ignored him. He didn't necessarily think a place name should remain unmolested, because the place names often have meaning that's more important. So he would have been on board with the translation using a word describing a place like a medieval shire

So looking at a French copy of the Hobbit, it's generally a quite literal translation. The Hill of Bilbo's residence is La Colline, the River Running becomes La Rivi�re Courante, Iron Mountains are Monts de Fer, etc. On the other hand some names remain the same such as Mirkwood and Long lake (though they use lac).

Le Comt� means the County hence shire. My copy calls Rivendell Combe Fendue and the Last Homely House is La Derni�re Maison Simple or literally the Last Simple House. Combe is the same as in English and Fendue is a conjugated form of the verb Fendre to split hence Split valley or Rivendell. However, looking through other translations Rivendell has also been called Fondcombe. Fond being 'in back of, background etc' though more rarely things like bosom and crux so perhaps heart of the valley. My copy also keeps Baggins but the movies called him Bilbo Sacquet (sac being bag) and it seems a recent written translation had him as Bessac, this last few things via the French wikipedia entry.

Other funny things I've found. Chapter Six: Out of the Frying Pan and into the Fire was re-written De Charybde en Scylla in reference to the Greek monsters since obviously such a phrase doesn't translate literally into French. I'm not sure though if De Charybde en Scylla is an actual idiom. I'll have to find out. The map in my copy also kept the name Rivendell on it despite changing a lot of the other labels. I guess that's just a small oversight.

It seems Tolkien ended up writing Nomenclature of the Lord of the Rings, instructions to translators, but it seems to be focused on mainly Germanic languages.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 11:45

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

100YrsofAttitude posted:

Considering the weight and history behind so many names in Tolkien's mythos it's weird to think that every language around the world is only familiar with specific names. I'm curious to find out what the translations for other proper names were in other languages and how exactly Tolkien dealt with this, considering he was alive for most of the publications.

Practically all the names of places (and those of a lot of characters) in the Lord of the Rings were translated into French when they were in English (or rewritten to look like the French spelling of Medieval English or German names). It's fairly appropriate since the book is supposed to be a translation in the first place.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 15:48

rypakal: Oct 31, 2012; He also cooks the food of his people

Kassad posted:

Practically all the names of places (and those of a lot of characters) in the Lord of the Rings were translated into French when they were in English (or rewritten to look like the French spelling of Medieval English or German names). It's fairly appropriate since the book is supposed to be a translation in the first place.

A good example is that Tolkien would want Brandywine translated, but not Baranduin.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 16:16

100YrsofAttitude: Apr 29, 2013

Kassad posted:

Practically all the names of places (and those of a lot of characters) in the Lord of the Rings were translated into French when they were in English (or rewritten to look like the French spelling of Medieval English or German names). It's fairly appropriate since the book is supposed to be a translation in the first place.

That makes a lot of sense actually. So people were at liberty to translate Westron but leave the Elvish.

# ? Mar 26, 2014 17:42

MadDogMike: Apr 9, 2008; Cute but fanged

Ynglaur posted:

With regards to Galadriel the Ring-bearer (or Ring-wielder), I think she would have dominated the Nazg�l to her will. There is some small evidence that Frodo was able to do so during the attack on Weathertop. While characters in the book conjecture that the Nazg�l retreated because they did not expect resistance, and were surprised by it, I always wondered if Frodo's cry of "A Elbereth Gilthoniel!" was not in some ways a command. While he did not claim the Ring, his mere possession of it may given his words enough weight, so to speak.

I seem to recall somewhere (one of the Tolkien letters?) saying the One Ring had some power over the Nazgul (by way of ruling all the Great Rings) but Sauron had the ultimate allegiance of the Nazgul by possessing the Nine (which he took back from them after they did their work). Came up in the context of if Frodo had claimed the One Ring at Mount Doom without Gollum interfering and the Nazgul made it back in time as I recall; suggested the Nazgul couldn't directly turn on Frodo but they could make a show of bowing down to him while discretely luring him away from the lava (and sealing the entrance behind them) by way of suggesting he "look out upon his new domain". Basically hold him there until Sauron made it out there, whereupon Frodo's chances would have been... slight. Can't track down where I read this, so take it with a grain of salt though.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 03:33

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

That's really interesting. I always assumed the Nazg�l possessed the Nine, but I think "which he took back from them..." is correct.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 04:04

redshirt: Aug 11, 2007

Is there a gain/loss equation in Sauron's rings? Which seem like the opposites of Feanor's creations, in function.

That is, by Sauron investing X amount of his power in the Rings, he was weakened by Y.

The Sil states clearly (I think) that Melkor was irreparably weakened by his actions in Middle Earth, so it would fit if Sauron was as well.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 04:09

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

redshirt posted:

Is there a gain/loss equation in Sauron's rings? Which seem like the opposites of Feanor's creations, in function.

That is, by Sauron investing X amount of his power in the Rings, he was weakened by Y.

The Sil states clearly (I think) that Melkor was irreparably weakened by his actions in Middle Earth, so it would fit if Sauron was as well.

I don't think there's like a mathematical equation anywhere but I'm virtually certain it's stated in several places that Sauron put much of his own power into the One Ring, which is why he was so diminished when it was lost and would be essentially destroyed if it were destroyed.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 04:12

redshirt: Aug 11, 2007

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

I don't think there's like a mathematical equation anywhere but I'm virtually certain it's stated in several places that Sauron put much of his own power into the One Ring, which is why he was so diminished when it was lost and would be essentially destroyed if it were destroyed.

Yeah, I didn't mean like a D&D level power measurement (though no doubt D&D is based on exactly this story), but rather Sauron must have known the risk he was taking by creating the Rings as such. He obviously thought it was worth it since he did it, but I wonder about his own calculations - he must have been doing some kind of cost-benefit analysis. Heh. Like, literally if I put X percent of myself in these Rings I'll lose Y percent of my own vitality.

I've always assumed that's a difference between Sauron and Melkor. Melkor just did stuff, out of sheer ego. Sauron had Melkor's example in front of him, and a much lesser set of foes.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 04:20

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

redshirt posted:

Is there a gain/loss equation in Sauron's rings? Which seem like the opposites of Feanor's creations, in function.

That is, by Sauron investing X amount of his power in the Rings, he was weakened by Y.

The Sil states clearly (I think) that Melkor was irreparably weakened by his actions in Middle Earth, so it would fit if Sauron was as well.

I think of it like it was an effort that took a lot out of him and it would probably be another billion years before he recovers his energy to do something that great again. Melkor, for example, will return eventually and recover his strength, but by that point the world will be over. There's no mathematical formula, it's just that doing all the stuff they did eventually drained their mental and physical energy and it will take time for them to recover. But their recovery time is so long that it might as well be eternity. Elves age the same way. Those that went to Valinor have a lot less stress and the magical protection of the valar keeps them young for much longer. But those that stayed on Middle Earth age and grow weary more quickly. Cirdan, for instance, eventually grew a gray beard he stayed on Middle Earth so long.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 04:41

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

There also seems to be a notion in Tolkien that artists have one "Great Work" in them and aren't endlessly creative. Feanor tops out with the Silmarils, etc.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 04:46

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

There also seems to be a notion in Tolkien that artists have one "Great Work" in them and aren't endlessly creative. Feanor tops out with the Silmarils, etc.

Yeah, but he usually prefaces it by saying something "until the end of the world" "never again on this world" implying that after the end of the world things get reset, for the immortals at least. No one knows what happens to mortals. Men apparently will have a place in the next music of the Ainur.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 04:59

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

There also seems to be a notion in Tolkien that artists have one "Great Work" in them and aren't endlessly creative. Feanor tops out with the Silmarils, etc.

I got a chuckle thinking of Melkor waxing poetic on this like Feanor and Olwe:

And Melkor spoke before the Valar, saying: "The Fire of my Might has passed away, and lives now only in the memories of Beleriand and the shadows of the destruction I have wrought. Foresighted was I! Even for those who are mightiest under Il�vatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Marring of Arda I brought into being, and within E� I can do so never again. Yet had I release from the Void for but a little while I could recall life to the Valaraukar, the Uruloki, and many other things, ere they pass for ever from Middle Earth; and then your healing should be once more hurt, and the malice of Melkor be reborn anew."

# ? Mar 27, 2014 05:13

TildeATH: Oct 21, 2010; by Lowtax

I'm surprised somebody still hasn't written LoTR or Silmarillion from the perspective of a Romantic Sauron or Morgoth. Sauron could represent the long-oppressed East and Orcs, it would be easy. Morgoth would be harder and would have to be Gothic Romantic as per Folderol.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 05:42

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Gianthogweed posted:

Yeah, but he usually prefaces it by saying something "until the end of the world" "never again on this world" implying that after the end of the world things get reset, for the immortals at least. No one knows what happens to mortals. Men apparently will have a place in the next music of the Ainur.

This got me thinking, did Tolkien ever address what happens to orcs after death or is it one of those things he sort of hand-waved away? If you look at it from the perspective of orcs being corrupted elves I could see an argument for their just going to the Hall of Mandos they would have had they not been corrupted, except that there's still the weird disconnect with elves being immortal and orcs being mortal (presumably?).

# ? Mar 27, 2014 06:22

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

Radio! posted:

This got me thinking, did Tolkien ever address what happens to orcs after death or is it one of those things he sort of hand-waved away? If you look at it from the perspective of orcs being corrupted elves I could see an argument for their just going to the Hall of Mandos they would have had they not been corrupted, except that there's still the weird disconnect with elves being immortal and orcs being mortal (presumably?).

So little is known about the orcs and what is known is often disputed or in conflict with other facts. No writing from the orcs perspective has survived so there's no way to know for sure of their fates or how they came to be. I'm pretty sure Tolkien did this on purpose. His writing style was such so as to appear only as a translator of ancient texts that had recently been discovered. Since the orcs ultimately lost the conflict and died out as a race we never did get to see things from their perspective. It's only in the post modern age that you actually see history from the loser's perspective.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 06:33

SoggyBobcat: Oct 2, 2013

Were Orcs ever described as mortal in the same vein as Men or even Dwarves? I had always assumed that they were immortal like the Elves.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 06:48

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Gianthogweed posted:

I think of it like it was an effort that took a lot out of him and it would probably be another billion years before he recovers his energy to do something that great again. Melkor, for example, will return eventually and recover his strength, but by that point the world will be over. There's no mathematical formula, it's just that doing all the stuff they did eventually drained their mental and physical energy and it will take time for them to recover. But their recovery time is so long that it might as well be eternity. Elves age the same way. Those that went to Valinor have a lot less stress and the magical protection of the valar keeps them young for much longer. But those that stayed on Middle Earth age and grow weary more quickly. Cirdan, for instance, eventually grew a gray beard he stayed on Middle Earth so long.

I always thought that Cirdan's beard symbolized his wisdom or magic or something, but he has it just because he's old. I thought that elves were immortal. But then again Cirdan is the most ancient living elf on Middle Earth.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 07:23

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# ? May 9, 2024 00:32

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

TildeATH posted:

I'm surprised somebody still hasn't written LoTR or Silmarillion from the perspective of a Romantic Sauron or Morgoth. Sauron could represent the long-oppressed East and Orcs, it would be easy. Morgoth would be harder and would have to be Gothic Romantic as per Folderol.

Is Jacqueline Carey's The Sundering close enough? I've never read it, since Kushiel's Dart bored to oblivion, so I can't comment on tone or quality.

And I guess there's Michael Aquino's Morlindal� too, if you want a Satanist's take on the mythology....

# ? Mar 27, 2014 08:22

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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