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Yes, Pazzi was the corrupt cop that wanted to turn in Hannibal to Mason Verger for the reward money.
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Mar 27, 2014 21:04
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escape artist posted:This isn't Dexter, you guys. (Thank gently caress) Christ, Dexter was so awful at the point I stopped watching it (around the start of season two I think), and I heard it gets even worse. And it's retroactively even shittier after watching Hannibal and seeing what an actually good show with a serial killer main character is like.
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Mar 27, 2014 21:18
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marktheando posted:Christ, Dexter was so awful at the point I stopped watching it (around the start of season two I think), and I heard it gets even worse. And it's retroactively even shittier after watching Hannibal and seeing what an actually good show with a serial killer main character is like. You have no idea. I almost suggest you watch it for "TV Anthropology" reasons. Season 4 is pretty good, or its flaws were covered by an amazing performance by Lithgow. But everything after it... I mean, you couldn't have scripted a show to be more disappointing than this. It was a perfect storm of incompetency that led to the worst finale on TV. I'll just list some poo poo for you to save you time. Spoilered for those who for some reason still want to watch Dexter: - There are supposed to be two killers in Season 6. By the second episode, goons had figured out from obvious clues that one of the killers was in the other killers head. It took 7 more episodes until it was revealed, and they tried to play it off like an amazing twist. - Dexter goes to kill a serial killer. Has her naked on the table. Realizes she's super hot, and bangs her and lets her go. They start dating, but he eventually turns her in when she tries to poison his sister. This high profile serial killer escapes from prison. - She returns and poisons Dexter again... but only so she could ask him to help her kill off her new husband. And they decide to move to Argentina together, with his son. - Dexter's sister has incestuous feelings for him and smokes pot with his 13 year old stepdaughter. - Dexter's murderous girlfriend, whom he has barely known, is given Dexter's son... and Dexter decides to abandon them. So he fakes his death and becomes a lumberjack in Oregon. Leaving his child to be raised by a serial killer he barely knows in Argentina. Michael C. Hall, with Six Feet Under and Dexter under his belt, has the rare honor of being featured in both the most satisfying TV finale, and the most disappointing TV finale. escape artist fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 21:24
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I couldn't disagree more (books and movies spoilers in this post) Hannibal absolutely is a sadist. The defining trait of Hannibal isn't his sadism, however, it's his lack of impulse control. The only thing that will ever trump it is self-preservation. When Hannibal wants something, he takes it. Due to his education and extremely high I.Q., his impulsive desires materialize into the finer things in life, and he will do everything he needs in order to acquire them: That's why he committed most of his murders as the Chesapeake Ripper. It was not because he desired to eat human flesh first and foremost, that was a corollary and bonus side effect. What he wanted was the money of those rich clients, therefore making sure they changed their will to make him inherit substantial amounts of money before he killed them. That way he was able to continue his extravagant lifestyle. Another way his extremely impulsive character manifests itself is through those he kills because he finds them to be distasteful or have angered him. The woman from the pilot who ended up as field Kabuki (whose scene was cut off) was killed because she was acting rudely toward him. Yes, he wanted take Will out of his limitations and quite literally expose what he was missing while inspecting the murders of Hobbes, but that was still only a corollary and welcomed side effect of the murder. It was first and foremost because that person acted in a way that offended Hannibal's sensibilities. The same goes for the inspector who ended on his plate. Was Hannibal happy to have a new meal? Absolutely, but this was because the man insulted him first and foremost. The same applies to Franklyn. Franklyn did not die due to the fact that he was in the way of Hannibal, that he would be a witness or anything similar. Hannibal killed him because he considered him to be absolutely insufferable. You could see it from the moment Franklyn put the dirty tissues on Hannibal's pristine table that he would die. I am 100% convinced that even if he had taken out Tobias without Franklyn being in the mix, he would have waited long enough after he stopped visiting him as a patient and would have gone to kill him. It's true that the TV show has not really explored the side of Hannibal where he kills his patients to get their money (UPCOMING TV SHOW SPOILERS)but now that Mason Verger is going to be introduced by the next episode or so, I'm guessing we will start to explore that as well. Also, as I said earlier, Hannibal's lack of impulse control when it comes to the things he wants is trumped by one thing, his instinct of self-preservation. That's why, even though he really liked and respected his own psychiatrist, he broke into her house to kill her. She more or less guessed his secret, and at the end of the day even his relationship with hers doesn't matter as much as being free to do what he wants.
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Mar 27, 2014 21:27
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Hannibal Season 2: This isn't Dexter, you guys
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Mar 27, 2014 21:37
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I absolutely adore the first season of Dexter. I ignore everything after for the most part. I did like s2 but I totally gave up after the fourth.
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Mar 27, 2014 21:40
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Hahaha, so stupid. Except the incest thing almost makes sense- always thought those two had really bad brother/sister chemistry (always funny when an actor clearly fancies his tv sister). Was not surprised to hear the actors were a couple in real life.
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Mar 27, 2014 21:52
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beanieson posted:Hannibal Season 2: This isn't Dexter, you guys I just pretend anything after Season 2 didn't happen except for a few special excerpts of character development and reveals. There was a tiny bit of good writing there, just.. spread out over years.... and years.. New episode tomorrow! Mukozuke.
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Mar 27, 2014 21:57
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SoroScrew
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I knew Dexter had gotten bad (which is why I stopped watching it after trying to delude myself for far too long that it wasn't) but I had no idea that it got THAT bad 
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Mar 27, 2014 22:03
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Mu Zeta posted:Yes, Pazzi was the corrupt cop that wanted to turn in Hannibal to Mason Verger for the reward money. Not long before, Hannibal shows a slide of a painting of Pazzi's direct medieval ancestor being hung, disemboweled, from that same building (the Palazzo Veccio?) for treason. Pazzi, of course, being a drunk corrupt piece of poo poo who sold Hannibal out to Mason Verger instead of doing his detective duty. He offends Hannibal, and gets too close to catching him, and is killed as a traitor in the same manner as his medieval ancestor, the painting of which Hannibal is curating 
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Mar 27, 2014 22:05
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Did they ever explain how nobody seemed to catch on to some dude being mysteriously being added to all these people's wills right before they are murdered / disappeared?
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Mar 27, 2014 22:05
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It's fair to say the police force in this show is less effective than on most crime TV.
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Mar 27, 2014 22:14
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I wrote this piece on how putting Will Graham behind bars seems to have invigorated the show, giving it a more enjoyable and playful feel: http://www.inlander.com/Bloglander/archives/2014/03/27/how-putting-its-hero-behind-bars-freed-hannibal-to-cut-loose
Janitor Bob fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 22:15
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Kuiperdolin posted:It's fair to say the police force in this show is less effective than on most crime TV. I don't know, they seem pretty confident. Just their enemies are far more insane and competent then the villain of the week most cop shows deal with.
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Mar 27, 2014 22:38
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You know Twee, I respect your opinions. You come across as someone smart and erudite enough to know what you're talking about and not just pulling your theories out of your rear. But man do I ever disagree with you on a lot of things. I don't have the patience or state of mind right now to really debate you, but the short story is that in your most recent post I come from pretty much the exact opposite perspective on Hannibal's priorities with his killings. I'm not saying you can't be right, just saying I humbly disagree on your whole stance.
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Mar 27, 2014 22:49
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Kuiperdolin posted:It's fair to say the police force in this show is less effective than on most crime TV. At this point I'm more inclined to believe there's something in the water that makes people not report dozens of missing people vanishing every few weeks to the police.
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Mar 27, 2014 22:50
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Huh it's been a decade or so since I read the books but I don't remember anything about Hannibal killing for money. It seems a bit weird- surely Hannibal makes enough as a fancy shrink to support his lifestyle?
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Mar 27, 2014 22:54
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marktheando posted:Huh it's been a decade or so since I read the books but I don't remember anything about Hannibal killing for money. It seems a bit weird- surely Hannibal makes enough as a fancy shrink to support his lifestyle? I don't remember specifically, but I'm pretty sure it would be in Silence of the Lambs or Red Dragon when Lecter is being introduced. So a few easy to forget lines basically, it wasn't ever a main plot point since its all stuff that happened before he got caught. I don't think taking money from people is all that important to Hannibal either, he takes it from them because they are undeserving of their possessions. Or more generally he just thinks of everything in the world as his if he decides he wants it. He probably also enjoys the challenge of gaining their trust to such an extreme degree that they put him in their will. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 22:59
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Jerusalem posted:I knew Dexter had gotten bad (which is why I stopped watching it after trying to delude myself for far too long that it wasn't) but I had no idea that it got THAT bad It is the benchmark for terrible television. Like I said, even if the entire writing staff was malevolent, and their whole goal was to piss off viewers, they still couldn't have orchestrated a catastrophe so perfectly. It's fascinating.
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Mar 27, 2014 23:20
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Kuiperdolin posted:It's fair to say the police force in this show is less effective than on most crime TV. Let me tell you about The Following...
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Mar 27, 2014 23:21
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Twee as gently caress posted:I couldn't disagree more (books and movies spoilers in this post) I dunno, that's not really sadism. Sadism is getting pleasure or enjoyment, sexual or not, from causing pain and suffering. Hannibal doesn't kill for pleasure or enjoyment, he kills to meet an end, usually the manipulation of situations or people around him to be beneficial to his agenda. That he may enjoy the killing is not the primary reason or drive and seems very low on his priority list, first and foremost being manipulation and self preservation, second being creating his own hosed up brand of 'art' with displaying his victims and making statements with their murders, and third being his cannibalism. I think his choosing people who are rude to him or others is just him deciding on a target, someone that he's now deemed as a lesser human being and that deserves to be removed but whose death/murder can also be used to create a beneficial scenario for him or others. I think Hannibal, at least Mads' portrayal, is as a 100% truly neutral, chaotic entity. His ONLY priority in life is to keep himself alive to explore everything he can. He's learned everything he deems worth his time about medicine, psychology, high cuisine, art, music, etc. and now his goal is to learn everything he can about exceptional human beings like Will and Jack. He can help someone and five seconds later cut them apart and feel nothing the same as a normal person can draw a small doodle on a piece of paper and then rip it up. There's no emotional connection there to a piece of paper, just as Hannibal feels about other people. But human beings, societal standards of behaviour, the law, what he has to do to maintain his lifestyle, all requires that he at least have restraint and do what he does very carefully and calculated. He is literally acting as God but without omnipotence that would render him above consequences or the limitations of the human body. I do think however that Will and Abigail are/were special to him. He sees Will as this extraordinary person who is worth infinitely more time and attention than anyone else he's met so far. Will isn't a flat two dimensional piece of paper, he's a lump of clay that can be molded and smashed and carved into something beautiful and then crammed back into a lump of grey matter and then shaped into something different. Hannibal is using Will to create mental works of art and observing the consequences of it in the world surrounding him. Will is his biggest so far to learn and experiment. Abigail is different though. Hannibal took HUGE risks helping her and protecting her and only when she pushed too far and just barely crossed the line that Hannibal decided he could no longer protect her without any risk to himself. The "I'm sorry I couldn't protect you in this life" line has a lot of implications, the obvious being the backstory about his sister. I think that, if it really is something like that, then Abigail/Misha is the one little deviation from truly neutral that Hannibal has. It's hard to really figure out though until we learn more about what happened or the TV show version of Hannibal's past. Franklyn I think was Hannibal's limits being pushed with someone who was an utterly insufferable whiny oval office who served absolutely zero purpose in Hannibal's existence, and on top of that was becoming a creepy stalker. And he knew Tobias would most likely kill Franklyn, but then by doing it himself right there, he could again observe an interesting reaction from Tobias. Also the tissue thing was just mean, Franklyn had to beg for a tissue while sobbing, which Hannibal hesitated to give him, and then there was no waste paper basket. What did he expect!? 
Safari Disco Lion fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 23:30
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You bring up an interesting question. Why would Hannibal even take on a guy like Franklin who he knows instantly will just piss him off?
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Mar 27, 2014 23:36
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Basebf555 posted:You bring up an interesting question. Why would Hannibal even take on a guy like Franklin who he knows instantly will just piss him off? My guess is that Hannibal likes to challenge himself and practice molding weaker minds.
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Mar 27, 2014 23:39
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Basebf555 posted:You bring up an interesting question. Why would Hannibal even take on a guy like Franklin who he knows instantly will just piss him off? Bentleys don't pay for themselves.
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Mar 27, 2014 23:40
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Snak posted:My guess is that Hannibal likes to challenge himself and practice molding weaker minds. That or he didn't start off that way and just got more and more insufferable and stalker-y as the sessions went on. Did they ever mention how long Hannibal had been seeing him? Plus I think he was referred to Hannibal, or maybe I'm misremembering the Hannibal-gives-Franklyn-a-referral conversation.
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Mar 27, 2014 23:41
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escape artist posted:Let me tell you about The Following... or the Blacklist.
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Mar 27, 2014 23:49
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marktheando posted:Huh it's been a decade or so since I read the books but I don't remember anything about Hannibal killing for money. It seems a bit weird- surely Hannibal makes enough as a fancy shrink to support his lifestyle? It's been a few weeks since I read Hannibal (it's much better than the movie, that's for certain), and it doesn't mention Hannibal killing anyone for their money, rather he charms/manipulates his wealthy patients into giving him their money after their death. Maybe he helped some of them "die with dignity," but that's not spelled out in the book.
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Mar 28, 2014 00:10
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:or the Blacklist. Ugh, I made it through 3 episodes of that poo poo because somebody insisted it wasn't as bad as it looked. They were right, it was worse.
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Mar 28, 2014 00:11
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Jerusalem posted:Ugh, I made it through 3 episodes of that poo poo because somebody insisted it wasn't as bad as it looked. They were right, it was worse. I made it through 3 episodes because I was on plane, it was on seatback tv, and I was actually kinda hammered already. My Mother was luckier in that during the same equivalent time (on a different plane) she got to watch 6 episodes of Brooklyn Nine-Nein.
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Mar 28, 2014 00:13
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Franklyn was just such a perfect portrayal of the creepy fans that put Hannibal on a pedestal, down to trying to imitate his style of dress as a way of making up for all of their other deficiencies. It's humorous, but it's also interesting, because characters like Hannibal really do seem to attract people that are socially stunted yet crave external validation. quote:It's been a few weeks since I read Hannibal (it's much better than the movie, that's for certain), and it doesn't mention Hannibal killing anyone for their money, rather he charms/manipulates his wealthy patients into giving him their money after their death. Maybe he helped some of them "die with dignity," but that's not spelled out in the book. That's probably more accurate, I haven't read the books in years. Even still, given that assisted suicide is still very much illegal, you'd think it would be a bit suspicious. I have a hard time believing that a psychiatrist being added to a patient's will right before they kill themselves / die of whatever wouldn't attract a little attention, especially if it happens multiple times. Then again it's such a small detail and it probably only sticks out now because "murderer charming / threatening his way into a will" has become a cliche in poor fiction.
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Mar 28, 2014 00:17
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Basebf555 posted:You bring up an interesting question. Why would Hannibal even take on a guy like Franklin who he knows instantly will just piss him off?
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Mar 28, 2014 01:01
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Or its just that Franklin was a patient that got in the way at the exact wrong time. Hannibal must have had patients other than Will, Franklin, and Bela after all. I mean, if people acting like they have mental health issues (which, you know, they do) just pissed Hannibal off to point of murder, he must have killed every single patient he's ever had.
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Mar 28, 2014 01:17
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I think Hannibal killed Franklin quickly just to deny his friend (I can't remember his name sorry) the pleasure of seeing him suffer, not out of any sense of mercy.
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Mar 28, 2014 01:22
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Yea I guess I'm going on the assumption that Hannibal was going to kill Franklin at some point regardless, but after what happened we can't really say that for sure.
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Mar 28, 2014 01:26
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There's absolutely no way a man like Lecter wouldn't aboslutely despise Franklin, particularly after he started meddling with him outside of the office and being a complete philistine in Lecter's rich and cultured art circles. He wouldn't have acted on his urge to throttle him or any other of his patients because he is a very deliberate murderer and he does not want to attract any more unwarranted attention to himself than he already has, but he jumped at the opportunity to kill Franklin when it presented itself with the visit of crazy cello man. He couldn't really go for any suitably nasty deliverance on Franklin because he had no time for it, what with a violent murderer in the same room about to kill him too, and also because he needed to frame Franklin's friend for the murder.
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Mar 28, 2014 02:07
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Tiptoes posted:Plus he was such a harmless, pitiable creature. He didn't try to offend or disrespect Hannibal. He was just pathetic. There'd be no sport in killing him. Hannibal has brutally killed at least three teenaged girls in a single season of the show, sport is certainly not a factor with him.
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Mar 28, 2014 02:11
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I'll reply in more details later, but throughout the Hannibal books we learn that Hannibal has killed nine of his patients (aside from Franklin) and he got all of their money. They also say mention multiple that like fine wine, Hannibal drinks up people's pain and thrives on it.
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Mar 28, 2014 02:29
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Yeah, no way in gently caress does some unrelated person show up in the wills of nine murdered people and not have police all over the place after, you know, the first one. Harris is an interesting author; sometimes its obvious he spent a ton of time researching everything to make sure things feel legitimate and reflect reality, and then the next page he'll just go off the deep end. It like Tom Clancy, but with policework instead of military technology.
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Mar 28, 2014 02:35
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I keep forgetting Fuller explains this poo poo at length in interviews.quote:AX: Before Hannibal kills Franklin, he tells Franklin he should leave. Is he sincere in wanting to let him go?
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Mar 28, 2014 02:36
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Tiptoes posted:I keep forgetting Fuller explains this poo poo at length in interviews. very nice. thank you. some quotes both interesting and relevant from the interview on mads and hannibal. quote:but for me what did it was this film AFTER THE WEDDING. It’s a beautiful film and he plays this heartbroken man who is trying to get back a lost romance and he was so sweet and emotional and vulnerable, and I really wanted meet him, because I felt like [part of HANNIBAL is] about Hannibal Lecter trying to find a friend, because he’s lonely in his own way. I wanted to see that vulnerability, that bonding, that need for a companion to share his life with in a way that he thought would never be possible. Then along comes Will Graham, a man who empathizes with the worst of humanity, and perhaps there could be a chance for Hannibal to have a friend after all. It felt like it was such a fascinating place to take a villain. It would be very easy to [depict] Hannibal Lecter as a psychopath or a sociopath, and in the book RED DRAGON, Thomas Harris says, “He’s not really a psychopath or a sociopath, because he does understand empathy, so what kind of crazy is he, and the answer is, we don’t know.” Primarily because it’s a work of fiction, but he does not fit any of the kind of the categories of the multi-phasic tests for psychopaths. He doesn’t fit any of those columns, so [the series] looks at him not as a psycho, but as someone who was completely Other. and quote:Mads Mikkelsen’s approach to the character was not to play him as Anthony Hopkins did, but here he is, this fallen angel who is capable of horrific things, but yet has an awe for humanity and an appreciation of the [human] condition. And that felt like it was such a fascinating approach to the character. And when I see the episodes again, I look at him now not as Hannibal Lecter, but as this guy [who] has that really distant look in his eyes, that infinity of thought, that goes beyond a mortal man. It’s such a smart, interesting, fresh approach to this character that Mads has taken, not that we have altered course to accommodate it, but had it climb aboard and we were all set off to the same destination. I think an important point brought up here is that mads hannibal should not strictly be analyzed in context of either the books or movies as fuller/mads have interpreted hannibal in a new way. the books and movies set the story, but this hannibal is unique and not bound to the cannon's characterizations porkchop_express fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 02:56
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