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Back in journalism college here in Brazil, we had a much beloved political journalism teacher that was a reference in the field: one of the few brazilians to cover the Afghanistan-USSR war live, arrested by half a dozen different right-wing regimes across South America, the works. He was a former communist, but had mellowed out to a socialist-libertarian in the mold of Chomsky, believing a swedish-model fusion of capitalist production and socialist-humanist organization were as good as we could hope for. He was openly a hardcore leftie, but detested flashy Guevara-shirt-wearing college types and took delight in demolishing their arguments. He loved to debate and could argue from any position; I saw him put a spirited defense of Austrian economics lacking any strawmen once just to make a New New Deal proponent have to work for his grade. More than once, back in the 2004-2008 period, he would shake his head as we discussed foreign policy and say "Back when we were all frothing communists, we'd dream of smashing the USA. It's kind of humbling that american conservatives are managing to do it better than we ever dreamed". He was being facetious, of course. He had a profound admiration for a lot of the american ideals and achievements and would often blow the minds of america-hating lefties who believes the American South was something out of Deliverance by making them compile the number of museums, opera houses and libraries in Texas ("Having wealth to spare can be more progressive than any soviet", he'd also say). Even so, I'm not willing to discard accelerationism out of hand, especially when the alternatives seem to be having as much success in standing up to the cleptocracy's advance as a sqaure of tissue paper against a sandblaster. The thing is, for it to be a choice at all, you need to have a structured alternative in place, or else it's just heaping a ton of suffering upon people during the crash to replace it with chaos or something worse afterwards. Waiting too long to attack/remove a system runs a big risk of allowing "prussian revolution" to take place; the Gramscian concept of the elites sensing trouble and performing changes from the top down, changing as little as possible so they can retain their privileged position but also escape retribution from the previous era's fuckups (Brazil's history is a long succession of such false reformations). People who think there's still room to improve and change things now should be focusing on changing campaign finance laws, redistricing schemes and enhancing accountability for the managerial class, while creatng a politicalculture to communicate to people at large why such things matter. Acclerationists would be well served to figure out why the Kochs and Adelsons and NRAs will not have as much power or more after the next crash comes along.
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Mar 28, 2014 00:21
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I hope nobody's advocating for the "do-nothing" form of accelerationism, and instead are advocating for the "go into the streets and commit actions that will necessarily induce reaction" form of accelerationism.
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Mar 28, 2014 00:39
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Sephyr posted:
This. This man knows what's going on. We do not have any "structured alternative" to kleptocracy right now. I think it can be argued that we've already passed that Gramscian point by observing what has been allowed to be passed under the Obama administration. Look at our gains on the "left": we have a neutered, half-functioning health care bill that's given far more gas to the kleptocrats and their astroturfed Tea Party than it has to the poor who need it, we have cannabis decriminalization, and we have judicial progress on same-sex marriage. What have the rich LOST by allowing the passage of these bills? Meanwhile, all the economic turnaround of the past six years has gone to the top 10%. The banks who hosed us got bailed out. The Kochs and Adelson own our political future. It's almost like they've allowed us to have a few social justice sops as the magician's right-hand flourish while his left hand steals our wallets. And how loving dare you, rscott, imply that it is still possible in this corporate controlled, top-down, heavily-surveilled nation, that pushing old ladies across the street or voting for the Green Party will make a difference? That that a new and socially-aware political system can be created when it would be so shockingly unprofitable for the billionaires who own this nation? Do you just have no awareness whatsoever of the stakes we're playing for? The straight game has been bought out, right out from under us. Nearly 50% of the voting populace voted for Mitt loving Romney, and you're telling me if I push Aunt Buttfuckula across the street, corporations will lose their right to spend uncountable millions in political races, or the Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich will magically disappear, and we will benefit from the taxes they duly owe to the nation they operate in? Your plan is no plan. It is the kind of self-serving, feel-good bullshit that allows them to rape us since we "feel" like we're making progress. The supremacy of the corporatocracy MUST BE TOPPLED for this nation to be healed, and until I hear a concrete, better plan, I am still going to campaign and argue for Judo. Let them have all that they want, and let us cease to be the opposing force that holds them up, and let them fall very far and very hard and very publicly, so that their evil may be exposed to all. Let me be the first person they shoot.
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Mar 28, 2014 00:56
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Um so your plan is to let the country fall apart and you think they're going to shoot you for it? They'd clone you if they could.
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Mar 28, 2014 01:04
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SedanChair posted:I hope nobody's advocating for the "do-nothing" form of accelerationism, and instead are advocating for the "go into the streets and commit actions that will necessarily induce reaction" form of accelerationism. You called my previous point hallucinatory, but yes, I am advocating the active, campaigning form, and over the next few months, we'll see what can be accomplished. I honestly and genuinely believe that the only viable path for dethroning the Kochs and Adelsons of this world is for people to support them and give them no victims to blame, no opposition to demonize, no excuse for their horrific abuses of power. I am angry that we have become so complacent. I am angry that people somehow seem to still believe that we are living in a system that allows change from within the system, despite the mountainous evidence that we have become pawns. I am angry that Obama was the loving best we could do. Were you here for the Obamatar thing? Campaign Obama made me believe, and then I got this poo poo sandwich. He dismantled the VFA grassroots movement, and has passed nothing but tepid-rear end poo poo while surveillance and militarization only increase. And now what do you have to offer me? Hilary loving Clinton, for Christ's sake? Leading a probable GOP House and Senate? What magical fairy-tale horseshit is this system going to crap out for me in 2016? No thanks, I'd much rather see a bunch of victorious Freepers gloat about President Cruz or President Paul, and then see them just get their way. They are nihilists, hoping for this nation to burn as long as the niggers burn first, and god drat it, they will never die until they are made to sit in a theater like former Nazi soldiers and watch first-hand what their ideas did to this country.  There's a reason we instantly shun Nazis today. They got their way, and it was pure, distilled horror.
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Mar 28, 2014 01:12
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McDowell posted:Television is reality, and reality is less than television. Keeping people out of the streets has been a high priority to the Establishment for the past 100 years, and I fear that bad times will make us even more like Russia, not less. I might go out on a limb and say that most Americans would not raise a finger if people were being publicly murdered for being a dissident. If those people were "terrorists" according to corporate media.
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Mar 28, 2014 07:38
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Quidam Viator posted:I honestly and genuinely believe that the only viable path for dethroning the Kochs and Adelsons of this world is for people to support them and give them no victims to blame, no opposition to demonize, no excuse for their horrific abuses of power. They'll ALWAYS have someone to demonize. If they don't have a division to exploit they'll manufacture one, if they can't do that they'll look abroad. quote:There's a reason we instantly shun Nazis today. They got their way, and it was pure, distilled horror. Except they won't be Nazis, and you'll have to go through pure distilled horror to get the new ones shunned. I'm not convinced you're wrong, BTW. Just that you seem to think accelerationism can avoid the risk of pure, distilled horror. They want the country to burn, you want to let them burn it, but you never come right out and say "poo poo's gonna burn, go get some marshmallows."
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Mar 28, 2014 09:39
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I oppose accelerationism for one reason only: I don't think it works. When workers are winning battles, they gain confidence and keep fighting to win more battles. They need to keep moving forward and keep the right on their toes so they can't roll back any changes or regain the upper hand. It works the other way as well. With every defeat for the left, people become more discouraged, turn on each other and fragment. The right becomes stronger, better organized, and more experienced so they can make it harder for the left to ever fight back again. You risk accelerating so far that the left is utterly crushed and when everything does finally collapse the people will turn to the only remaining organized political group that seems to come from "outside" the system: fascists. You can't rely on the frog to realize it's being boiled when you turn up the heat, sometimes it will start attacking another the other frogs in the pot and then they all die.
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Mar 28, 2014 09:49
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Jesus, this is like arguing with an omelette or something. First off, I'm not in the US, so I can't really relate to Obama, though he sounds like a lovely deal. As you yourself so astutely noted, party politics are a dead end. However, popular movements against the austerity groups, banks and enviromental destruction are catching wind, and the really effective political change, history-wise, has never had anything to do with parties or "campaigns". So, to re-iterate: You don't want to do anything besides vote, and you got what you deserved. If you won't fight for what you believe in (and voting doesn't count) you can expect to be ignored. Being a crybaby, but continuing to do nothing, won't change that. E: too early for grammar 
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Mar 28, 2014 09:56
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OwlBot 2000 posted:I oppose accelerationism for one reason only: I don't think it works. When workers are winning battles, they gain confidence and keep fighting to win more battles. They need to keep moving forward and keep the right on their toes so they can't roll back any changes or regain the upper hand. It works the other way as well. With every defeat for the left, people become more discouraged, turn on each other and fragment. The right becomes stronger, better organized, and more experienced so they can make it harder for the left to ever fight back again. Aren't you kind of assuming the left has not already been crushed? Quidam's arguments are considerably more persuasive if you consider the left to already be crushed and scattered and therefore incapable of providing meaningful, organized resistance. I do not think he is too far off the mark here or otherwise closer to the truth than people arguing that wheeling grannies is going to be a substantive counter-force to the now near complete domination of the right wing in American politics. Edit: For the record I am in the "poo poo is going to burn" camp, things are too far gone for it to not end up that way. I am also skeptical that the left has the motivation, organization, and ideological coherence to respond properly in this scenario. This isn't something to be celebrated though, it is merely how I think things are going to end up given the current situation. Although I should add that I am merely using "poo poo is going to burn" in a purely hyperbolic sense. There will be no apocalypse as I suspect the kind of order they will build to be largely stable in the short to medium term. Miserable, yes. But stable in that narrow time frame. AstheWorldWorlds fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 10:44
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Grognan posted:I might go out on a limb and say that most Americans would not raise a finger if people were being publicly murdered for being a dissident. If those people were "terrorists" according to corporate media. What if they weren't being murdered but instead they were systemically targeted and placed in prison for being criminals?
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Mar 28, 2014 15:48
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Quidam Viator posted:You called my previous point hallucinatory, but yes, I am advocating the active, campaigning form, and over the next few months, we'll see what can be accomplished. I honestly and genuinely believe that the only viable path for dethroning the Kochs and Adelsons of this world is for people to support them and give them no victims to blame, no opposition to demonize, no excuse for their horrific abuses of power. I am angry that we have become so complacent. I am angry that people somehow seem to still believe that we are living in a system that allows change from within the system, despite the mountainous evidence that we have become pawns. I am angry that Obama was the loving best we could do. Were you here for the Obamatar thing? Campaign Obama made me believe, and then I got this poo poo sandwich. He dismantled the VFA grassroots movement, and has passed nothing but tepid-rear end poo poo while surveillance and militarization only increase. And now what do you have to offer me? Hilary loving Clinton, for Christ's sake? Leading a probable GOP House and Senate? What magical fairy-tale horseshit is this system going to crap out for me in 2016? No thanks, I'd much rather see a bunch of victorious Freepers gloat about President Cruz or President Paul, and then see them just get their way. They are nihilists, hoping for this nation to burn as long as the niggers burn first, and god drat it, they will never die until they are made to sit in a theater like former Nazi soldiers and watch first-hand what their ideas did to this country. Here is a better idea, the 27% of this country that are right wing to a t, closet racists, people who in their hearts really do want to kill all the gays, people who have somehow convinced themselves that they would be on top if the gilded age happened have a faction within that if they really did see power, actual power, slipping through their fingers. They would in fact react violently. Push them to that point, make it so you do have a armed right wing rebellion. Because I would also argue giving Charles Kochs own claims he is saving America that at least some of the rich sociopaths supporting them also believe this and get them behind it. When the trash is crushed under foot afterwords put in measures to eradicate such ideas from Americas conscious, do to the socioapths what Wilson did to socialists, and you effectively strangle it. Also in order to have an effective left one must build it, the progressives have actually worked against charter schools with some effectiveness and other neoliberal poo poo that has it origins with Charles Koch, so to claim that this subhuman cannot be defeated except by giving it what it wants is showing a profound distrust in Americans general dislike of large businesses. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 17:54
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Crowsbeak posted:Here is a better idea, the 27% of this country that are right wing to a t, closet racists, people who in their hearts really do want to kill all the gays, people who have somehow convinced themselves that they would be on top if the gilded age happened have a faction within that if they really did see power, actual power, slipping through their fingers. They would in fact react violently. Push them to that point, make it so you do have a armed right wing rebellion. Because I would also argue giving Charles Kochs own claims he is saving America that at least some of the rich sociopaths supporting them also believe this and get them behind it. When the trash is crushed under foot afterwords put in measures to eradicate such ideas from Americas conscious, do to the socioapths what Wilson did to socialists, and you effectively strangle it. Also in order to have an effective left one must build it, the progressives have actually worked against charter schools with some effectiveness and other neoliberal poo poo that has it origins with Charles Koch, so to claim that this subhuman cannot be defeated except by giving it what it wants is showing a profound distrust in Americans general dislike of large businesses. This is compelling in some respects, but I am not sure there is a clear path to elicit that kind of reaction as beyond some social issues the right wing largely gets what it wants.
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Mar 28, 2014 18:26
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:This is compelling in some respects, but I am not sure there is a clear path to elicit that kind of reaction as beyond some social issues the right wing largely gets what it wants. The reason why this is even happening is that progressives have began to build their own institutions. Of course I would argue that progressives must be willing to play a long game, not be unwilling to play to the base instincts of certain voters to get what they want passed, like saying so one should not have healthcare in the greatest nation on earth, as well as be willing to use fox news tactics on creatures like the kochs.
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Mar 28, 2014 19:07
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Quidam Viator posted:This. This man knows what's going on. We do not have any "structured alternative" to kleptocracy right now. I think it can be argued that we've already passed that Gramscian point by observing what has been allowed to be passed under the Obama administration. Look at our gains on the "left": we have a neutered, half-functioning health care bill that's given far more gas to the kleptocrats and their astroturfed Tea Party than it has to the poor who need it, we have cannabis decriminalization, and we have judicial progress on same-sex marriage. What have the rich LOST by allowing the passage of these bills? Meanwhile, all the economic turnaround of the past six years has gone to the top 10%. The banks who hosed us got bailed out. The Kochs and Adelson own our political future. It's almost like they've allowed us to have a few social justice sops as the magician's right-hand flourish while his left hand steals our wallets. If all lefists are as lazy, entitled and cowardly as you it's no wonder why we can't get anything done. You are disgusting. Yes, I am aware of the stakes at hand. That is exactly why accelerationism is so loving stupid. Do you like actually have a clue what it's like to be poor in this country? Not reading it from mother jones or whatever tumblr blog, but actually viscerally experiencing what it's like to live in poverty in this country? Accelerationism is only going to make that existence worse for literally hundreds of millions of people for an undetermined time until things get so bad that society collapses. Then maybe the glorious communist revolution can happen? But what will be left? How many lives must be sacrificed, how many people must suffer before you lift a finger to help? When the battle is already won and all those poor meanies are out of your way? If you want to martyr yourself for some cause go light yourself on fire or in front of the white house or something, don't think that taking the rest of us down with you is a viable ideology. You're worse than useless, you're actively detrimental to the causes that you profess to believe in.
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Mar 28, 2014 20:11
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I'm not sure that a "Marsch durch die Institutionen" is all that viable. The political realignment in the 1980s and 1990s pretty much killed that dead. The only thing I can see that came from it is the Green movement in Europe and while Red/Green coalitions did spring up, when the "red" part of the coalition is a party that heavily favors neoliberalism I'm not sure you can really call that meaningful leftward movement. Especially since Green Parties tend to focus more on neo-luddite pet projects as well as broader environmental and social platforms as opposed to economic issues, you end up with a Neoliberal economic policy coupled with stricter pollution controls, an expansion of gay rights and GMO labeling. Stricter pollution controls in the US would be awesome! But if that's all the reimagined permanent revolution within the system produces I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze. Edit: And I'm being really generous with what it accomplished. More realistically, all it did was help neuter the RAF and other extremists. It would have been interesting to see if they had served as a legitimate voice for them, as per the Armalite and Ballot Box strategy of the IRA. Not that any of that really applies to America since we have no equivalent movement. Shbobdb fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 20:22
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I've already seen articles listing other companies prepping cases if the Hobby Lobby thing goes bad (damned if I can find them now). Even if it ends up going just "closely held corporations" route. Well I think something like KII fits the definition of a private closely held corporation, which scares the hell of me. If the senate flips in November. I think we'll see a lot of crazy. They wouldn't have the votes to convict on an impeachment, but I bet the crazies start screaming hard for impeachment proceedings if both houses are (R). I think there will be a lot of very crazy poo poo vetoed for two years. Qiadom, I been thinking about it. And I keep coming back to the same thing. What has happened when this has been done before. "The real enemy was the ethos of aggression, possessive individuals- so highly prized by roman society-- that had percolated into even the most seemingly innocent social and religious structure of everyday life." (The Message and the Kingdom) I find a parallel in that description with the situation now. There is an event that gets left out the New Testament. Most people don't know the context of letters to the Romans. In those letters there are some very "follow the rules obey the authorities" type statements. What most people don't know is that Paul was preparing to go back to Jerusalem with a massive collection of wealth raised from all the churches he'd visited, intended to be given to God / the Jerusalem community in the temple. That was intended to be an acceleratory act. It would have made a statement to Rome that could not be ignored, and it was intended to start the apocalypse. It was a public gently caress you to the patronage system, power, Rome, and most importantly to an ideology of aggressive selfishness and greed. Basically "Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities" was more of a hang on guys don't gently caress up now, we are about to start this poo poo. In other words Paul set out to commit a blatant acceleratory act. It doesn't go well. It goes so badly that it gets left out of Acts. This event ends up so embarrassing that a community centered around a deeply embarrassing scandalous event (the cross) doesn't want to talk about it. The giant temple donation intended to make a statement gets rejected. But the poo poo hits the fan anyway. Paul gets arrested and sent to Rome to be executed. James (Jesus' brother) get martyred as part of a power grab inside the Jewish groups. This all ends the radical egalitarian character of the early Jesus movement and pushes it towards a monarchical structure. It also sets in motion the events (with a little help from the 64 CE fire) that lead Nero's persecutions and eventually to Titus being sent to stomp the poo poo out of Jerusalem. I think the words you used sum it up "pure, distilled horror", that's where it goes. But even if it goes there, that doesn't mean change will come. You might get "pure, distilled horror", no Kingdom, and a unintentional legacy of "Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities"
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Mar 28, 2014 21:00
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rscott posted:Accelerationism is basically desiring the suffering of millions of people for the chance that they might wake up one day and do what you want. It's lazy awful garbage, a justification to resolve whatever moral qualms you might have about enjoying your middle class 1st world lifestyle without actually raising a finger to do anything, nothing more. It also doesn't make much historical sense. Most mass insurrections of the past (French revolution, Irish land war, etc.) that were based on living conditions happened just after the worst period of degradation, when the situation started to improve. I suppose an accelerationist would just say "well yeah, but you still need things to get worse first". Maybe, but current first world problems (not being dismissive of them, I can't think of a better label) are not the same as those of the past. I doubt that the economic situation would ever get bad enough to force that kind of rising, and even if it did, we live in an age of inescapable mass media that affects perceptions. Weldon Pemberton fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 21:56
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Brandor, your post is very relevant. I'm a History teacher, and I just taught about Masada, Titus, and the annihilation of the Jewish state. If I was living in a province of the Roman Empire, you'd never hear me venting out all these extreme opinions. Supposedly, 2,000 years of civilization, open communications, transitions to the idea of democratic republics and the rule of law have bought us, as modern humans, the right to have an active role in our self-governance. The Jews, with their (at the time) bizarre fixation on monotheism, were not considered true stakeholders in the nation that occupied them. Sadly, the Israeli treatment of Palestinians best approximates the Roman attitude toward Jews. We're Americans, in America, supposedly living under and being part of a political system that should simultaneously represent, empower, and protect us and our freedoms, in exchange for our adherence to the law and participation in the political process. I promise you that if I believed that any of the elements of the American social contract were still functional, I would not be putting myself out there like some crazed Cassandra, exposing myself to all this scorn and ridicule. Anyone with one eye to see can tell that money is what makes policy in this nation. The illusion of choice remains, but actual choice of policy is increasingly held by bastions of wealth that we as normal Americans cannot even touch. But if you still believe the ILLUSION is real, you'll keep yelling against me and saying to fight within the system, vote for third parties, and be an activist. Anyone with one eye to see can tell that we still have the right on paper to a free press, to the establishment of our own enterprises and appropriate representation in the republic. Go ahead and start a news institution: I dare you to take on CNN and Fox News, who win not through competition or proper oversight of the government, but through collusion. I dare you to open your own private supermarket or hardware store in America, and see what WalMart, Home Depot, and Lowes do to you. More than anything, I dare you to try to get into our political system and NOT engage with the lobbying, purchasing, gigantic powers that be and represent the real needs of average lower- and middle-class people, and pass even one piece of legislation that takes power away from the kleptocracy. This is not despair talking; this is reality in 2014. I dare anyone to tell me specifically how they plan to undo this carefully-orchestrated replacement of our rights, freedoms, and laws with merest illusion. Everyone keeps acting like I'm some trust-fund hipster that wants to sit back in luxury and sip pinot noir while everyone else dies. DO I really need to respond to these ad hominem attacks? DO I really need to tell you I'm a teacher in a district that has raped us and doubled our workload without offering even cost-of-living increases in four years? That I've spent 8 months homeless, living outside when I was pink-slipped from teaching when the state cut the district's budget? I am a direct victim of the corporatization of education, a direct victim of the destruction of the political process by moneyed interests trying to kill public schooling. When you live in an illusory republic, you are fed propaganda that we have legal processes as citizens that allow us to effect change through the system. rscott keeps calling me stupid. I contend that if you are sucker enough to swallow the illusion that you still have rights and power as a citizen, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, then it is not I who am the stupid one. I keep asking for an alternate plan. Thanks to Crowsbeak, we have ONE valid opposing idea, which I think has some element of realism. We crank up the liberalism until the 27% on the opposite extreme rise up in violent revolt so that they discredit their policies. THIS COULD WORK. The only thing we would need is a sufficiently powerful, sufficiently well-represented LIBERAL, left-wing movement in this country, enough to rile them up. OK, let's talk about the leaders we have who can do this. I'll make a nod toward Barney Frank. Then... silence. The KII strategy isn't about the presidency; it's about eating up local, state, and congressional offices, and they are loving killing liberalism. Look at Scott Walker in Wisconsin. QED. Is anyone still angry about how he raped the teachers of that state? The world is on fire around you, and your elected officials, your corporate news-bringers, and your corporate overlords have still managed to convince you all that blood and fire aren't necessary, that if you just sit back and allow yourselves to be entertained, everything will be just fine. So, I'll continue to play Cassandra to this forum, desperately trying to throw a torch at this corporate Trojan horse you guys are wheeling into town, yelling and screaming like a maniac that it's a trap, knowing the whole time that you won't listen and that your entire city is being gutted from the inside. Or would you rather than I just shut up because I'm dumb? I can do that. Either way, this will end in flames and death. It's your choice of who shall burn.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:24
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Annnd chalk another big win for the Kochs and Adelsons. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/03/us/politics/supreme-court-ruling-on-campaign-contributions.html?hp&_r=0
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Apr 2, 2014 17:52
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Sephyr posted:Annnd chalk another big win for the Kochs and Adelsons. gently caress it, abandon all hope. America for the rich, by the rich.
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Apr 2, 2014 18:02
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Honestly all that previous talk about acceleration-ism versus slow and steady is moot since it seems like acceleration-ism is being forced on us regardless of who we vote for.
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Apr 2, 2014 18:09
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Quidam Viator posted:were not considered true stakeholders in the nation I think this exact type of situation is developing now. Language like "Socialist Keynen Muslim" hides a deeper trend, they're saying people we disagree with must not be American. When they say "liberal", "communist" or "socialist", that's the same as "not a true stakeholder in the nation." Othering of that exact type is going on. On the fringes it's getting hideous. The state rep who is a Son of the Confederacy in Florida who is trying to prevent a union war memorial in state park (in a place where far more union than confederate soldiers died). The Klan declaring itself a "religious social organization" to horn in on "religious freedom" arguments. That very type of hate is bubbling up and expressing. This has happened before and it came from the same place . This is a Bircher pamphlet from Dallas in Nov 63.  http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/10/the-john-birchers-tea-party.html Same fucker handing those out was the guy who organized the resistance to James Meredith's enrollment University of Mississippi. So when I see news articles about a noose around the neck of that statue, well If I'm honest I don't have a coherent argument linking these things. But it looks very much like the same kind of hate and I'll think we may see the violence that follows that kind of hate. Some of these groups and individuals are getting to the point of feeling that they can express these things in public again. You are very much taking the same risk as standing against Rome. And I am aware of what's going on in Florida. My father has worked retail grocery in that state for nearly forty years. And I have many family members in the public education (teachers and a grant writer) system spread across half dozen counties. One of them suffered the exact same thing you did, loss of home when her job was cut (Ag teachers got canned real drat quick). And it's not just government they are hollowing out. It's businesses too. The place (trailer park) I grew up in was run by private partnership that got bought out by a large holding company run by a hedge fund (that manages in the style of KII). Going back for the holidays over the years, it's been rough watching my childhood home in a real physical sense get eaten by a management theory. I'm also very aware of Wisconsin and the Walker business, I have inlaws from there. He (Walker) and Preibus are very much Koch creatures. Some of us must reconcile family (that are otherwise good individuals) supporting this craziness. Quidam Viator posted:I promise you that if I believed that any of the elements of the American social contract were still functional, I would not be putting myself out there like some crazed Cassandra, exposing myself to all this scorn and ridicule. There is a cold war sermon I love: "We have not experienced it; and we cannot believe that we could be caught in such a destruction. And yet, I see American soldiers walking through the ruins of these cities, thinking of their own country, and seeing with visionary clarity the doom of its towns and cities. I know that this has happened, and is still happening. There are soldiers who have become prophets, and their message is not very different from the message of the ancient Hebrew prophets. It is the message of the shaking of the foundations, and not those of their enemies, but rather those of their own country. For the prophetic spirit has not disappeared from the earth. Decades before the world wars, men judged the European civilization and prophesied its end in speech and print. There are among us people like these. They are like the refined instruments which register the shaking of the earth on far-removed sections of its surface. These people register the shaking of their civilization, its self-destructive trends, and its disintegration and fall, decades before the final catastrophe occurs. They have an invisible and almost infallible sensorium in their souls; and they have an irresistible urge to pronounce what they have registered, perhaps against their own wills. For no true prophet has ever prophesied voluntarily." So I don't disagree with the prophetic framing. Quidam Viator posted:The KII strategy isn't about the presidency; it's about eating up local, state, and congressional offices, and they are loving killing liberalism. Look at Scott Walker in Wisconsin. QED. And I would go further than you do here. I would not contest that they are trying to eat up very local elections. But they want more than that. I've been focusing on the Kochs and Birchers but there's another side to this, the Dominionists. They bring something problematic to the table. There are ideas in Christianity that are parallel to, very similar, to the Marxist critique of ideologies. It's apocalyptic thinking, like what you are engaging in. Some of the Christian right-wing groups do and can think in this way. So it becomes a part of the right wing thought in general. And they don't just want to make the world and the government to be in line with their ideology. They want us to be too. They'll pick fights they know they are going to lose, just to use specific language to have it repeated in the media. They want things framed in certain ways (the king of this Mr. Ales at Fox also got his start with the Birchers) so as to create a whole world view, they want certain words or combinations of words used so as to affect the very structure of our thoughts. They aren't just after the government. They're attempting to change our souls, our minds. I guess what I'm saying is that I think some of these people would recognize accelerationism for what it is, because they have very similar intellectual tools. I don't mean they'll look at and reach the conclusions that other people here on SA do when they respond to you. I mean they'll understand what you are doing in way that is similar to how you understand it. When you advocate this they know what it is and how it works. You want to change hearts and minds, by having those hearts and minds witness horror and suffering. They know how that works. It's been used against them before. These are the ideological children of the people who used clubs, fire hoses, nooses, bombs and dogs against the civil rights movement. Accelerating their ends is problematic, because one of those ends is the re-framing of reality, altering the ideologies of all of us in a way so as to make us not change our minds when we are finally confronted by horror and suffering. The goal is to change us, without ever having to convince us, so that we are participants. It's not just to kill liberalism, how do I say it? That's it. Market-Based man. That's what they want. That's the end goal, to make all of us that. Radish posted:Honestly all that previous talk about acceleration-ism versus slow and steady is moot since it seems like acceleration-ism is being forced on us regardless of who we vote for. There's a word for this, Kairos. The appointed time or the decisive time. These very rich people think their appointed time is coming, they're probably going to win some fights in Nov 14. That may double down the crazy, again. Qiadom, you want to do Judo with ideas. Kairos is the moment in which that is possible. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 19:29
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Quidam Viator posted:Brandor, your post is very relevant. I'm a History teacher, and I just taught about Masada, Titus, and the annihilation of the Jewish state. If I was living in a province of the Roman Empire, you'd never hear me venting out all these extreme opinions. Supposedly, 2,000 years of civilization, open communications, transitions to the idea of democratic republics and the rule of law have bought us, as modern humans, the right to have an active role in our self-governance. The Jews, with their (at the time) bizarre fixation on monotheism, were not considered true stakeholders in the nation that occupied them. Sadly, the Israeli treatment of Palestinians best approximates the Roman attitude toward Jews. Protip, the problem is liberalism in general, maybe in all of your whining and moaning about how things are just too hard and too impossible to change and to fix you should like, I dunno consider that as the lynchpin to your whole problem? I mean Christ, you want to burn the whole thing to the ground and then build another liberal capitalist "democracy"?
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Apr 2, 2014 19:54
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BrandorKP posted:I think this exact type of situation is developing now. Language like "Socialist Keynen Muslim" hides a deeper trend, they're saying people we disagree with must not be American. When they say "liberal", "communist" or "socialist", that's the same as "not a true stakeholder in the nation." Othering of that exact type is going on. On the fringes it's getting hideous. The state rep who is a Son of the Confederacy in Florida who is trying to prevent a union war memorial in state park (in a place where far more union than confederate soldiers died). The Klan declaring itself a "religious social organization" to horn in on "religious freedom" arguments. That very type of hate is bubbling up and expressing. This has happened before and it came from the same place . This is a Bircher pamphlet from Dallas in Nov 63. Perhaps its time we take some of their tools, why not subtly suggest conspiracies exists? Why not dehumanize these creatures? Why not engage in every dirty trick to stop them? Why not be willing to bring pistols to the knife fight? Why not see every battle lost as a lesson rather than a defeat? Why not play up to the American public's paranoid culture so they can fear these creatures? Why not suggest that they are not true Christians? Why not suggest that they are enemies of man?
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Apr 2, 2014 20:12
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Crowsbeak posted:Perhaps its time we take some of their tools, why not subtly suggest conspiracies exists? Why not dehumanize these creatures? Why not engage in every dirty trick to stop them? Why not be willing to bring pistols to the knife fight? Why not see every battle lost as a lesson rather than a defeat? Why not play up to the American public's paranoid culture so they can fear these creatures? Why not suggest that they are not true Christians? Why not suggest that they are enemies of man?
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Apr 2, 2014 20:13
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I'm reminded of the liberals in the Russian Parliament 100 years ago who would storm out in protest (allowing the bolsheviks to control all procedures) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB4dYaHewYw
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Apr 2, 2014 20:29
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Nessus posted:But you see, we should not stoop to their methods, therefore-- Could you really, though? Would you be up for suppressing the votes of people voting for the other side? To say with a straight face that they should pass up on health care education or job opportunities if those come as a result of policies by your rivals, knowing the human cost this will have as a direct result of your actions? Back in college Ethics our teacher posed us a scenario. Say you are a candidate for governor who miraculously managed to get funded without compromising your ideals and your integrity. You're facing a radical candidate with a fundamentalist platform. Then your PR guy lands some prime political TNT: he has pics of your opponent in a gay bar kissing a dude. You can release it (though a separate channel, of course) and have it in the bag. The question is: can you? You know being gay is no sin. You know you'll be relying on the faction of the public that goes "Me vote for a fag? No way!" to win and help perpetuate opinions you despise. It'll help make a lot of minorities fair game in coming election cycles. At the same time, can you NOT release it? You have people working for you, putting in time and energy and cash hoping you are committed and want to win. Letting your opponent win means a ton of harmful policies will get enacted. And despite the facile saturday morning cartoon cliché, there's a question of how much you can use their methods without becoming them. Howard Dean was a somewhat independent firebrand and having to wade in this morass turned him into a bought apologist for tyrants. Hell, even Dick Morris was somewhat less loathsome before going full "pragmatic".
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Apr 2, 2014 20:35
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Sephyr posted:Could you really, though? Would you be up for suppressing the votes of people voting for the other side? To say with a straight face that they should pass up on health care education or job opportunities if those come as a result of policies by your rivals, knowing the human cost this will have as a direct result of your actions? Yes you do, your enemy must be destroyed or forced submission, thinking of these things as humans has allowed them to enslave America, it is time to do whatever is possible to restore it. Also how do you hurt minorities, the only people you hurt is your opponent, his family, his campaign, and ensure his mouth breathing supporters stay away from the polls. All together I say you come out on top. Even better the revelations could keep people from voting for like minded candidates of your opponent in the legislator giving you a easy way to pass legislation. We must treat politics as war in order to win, we have to realize that we are not remembered if we are defeated despite sticking to our guns, but whether we were the last ones standing. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 20:53
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Sephyr posted:Could you really, though? Would you be up for suppressing the votes of people voting for the other side? To say with a straight face that they should pass up on health care education or job opportunities if those come as a result of policies by your rivals, knowing the human cost this will have as a direct result of your actions? e: Like to give an example here, there was the recent article in Mother Jones about how Hobby Lobby's had a lot of money in companies that make the stuff they're fighting to the Supreme Court to not have to pay for. Leaving aside the unstated but probably true fact that the purpose of this case is to overturn restrictions on companies, this isn't saying that it is bad to have morning after pills, it's saying they're giant hypocrites who speak with forked tongues. Are you saying something like that shouldn't be used in a political argument?
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Apr 2, 2014 21:08
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gently caress morals in an election. We're fighting for the future of the country. Fight to win this election, and the one after it. Outing your regressive opponent as gay means his career is over. His supporters have wasted their resources on a loser and will have to spend more next time to unseat the incumbent. If fighting dirty during an election means I can do the right thing after the election means I get to actually steer the country in the right direction rather than lose going, "welp at least I fought a fair fight" while shitlord continues to ruin the world. EDIT: Not that it matters, how many stupid regressive candidates have done the most hateful, backwards stuff, openly, and been able to brush it off because they say they trust in god more than the other guy or was in the army or some other stupid reason half the redeck backwoods morons in this country support no matter what because at least "he aint no lib-ruhl" SopWATh fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 21:19
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Rob Ford is the future.
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Apr 2, 2014 21:30
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I wonder if Americans would be better served by many of us just leaving the country altogether instead of trying to alter an unalterable course and sticking around to get purged. Granted this isn't going to save the poor but let's be frank: they are not going to be saved regardless and especially if those most concerned are dead or in prison.
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Apr 2, 2014 22:03
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:I wonder if Americans would be better served by many of us just leaving the country altogether instead of trying to alter an unalterable course and sticking around to get purged. Granted this isn't going to save the poor but let's be frank: they are not going to be saved regardless and especially if those most concerned are dead or in prison. Well thanks for writing me off? This is the leftist equivalent to going Galt and it's just as stupid as when Ayn Rand thought it up.
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Apr 2, 2014 22:13
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:I wonder if Americans would be better served by many of us just leaving the country altogether instead of trying to alter an unalterable course and sticking around to get purged. Granted this isn't going to save the poor but let's be frank: they are not going to be saved regardless and especially if those most concerned are dead or in prison.
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Apr 2, 2014 22:59
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rscott posted:Well thanks for writing me off? This is the leftist equivalent to going Galt and it's just as stupid as when Ayn Rand thought it up. Well think of it this way: You are likely hosed regardless if people leave or stay and get purged. You may be considerably less hosed if there is a group of people who can fund and lobby something to get people out of the country if things become truly bad and especially as people will stay and help get you out so you have internal as well as external support. A violent revolution or some kind of mass movement is honestly not going to happen and the legislative avenues are closing every year. What do you propose people with the means do? EDIT: Also my ancestors have only been here for just under a century on my mother's side and considerably less on my father's. Can someone explain why individuals in a nation of immigrants are reprehensible for wanting to leave? Were my ancestors shitmen for fleeing Portugal when things were quickly accelerating from merely bad to terrible? I assure you I don't mean this in the sense of "pack up and gently caress em" but building up a base of external support so we can help people get out. AstheWorldWorlds fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 23:00
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Yeah of course! You guys can be American leftists-in-Exile providing encouraging words and feeling so sympathetic for those poor Americans stuck in that godawful country while you live a life of comparative security. Cool. If you want to leave, fine but don't try and moralize your cowardly behavior by pretending it's actually better for everyone if you peace out. It's FYGM just the same. e: I'm not making this argument out of nationalistic grounds either, just to be clear. I just firmly believe the answer is not to run away from problems, or to go along for the ride because you think it's hopeless, especially when you're obviously privileged enough to not be terribly affected by the downward spiral of this country. That poo poo is weak. rscott fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 23:22
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rscott posted:Yeah of course! You guys can be American leftists-in-Exile providing encouraging words and feeling so sympathetic for those poor Americans stuck in that godawful country while you live a life of comparative security. Cool. If you want to leave, fine but don't try and moralize your cowardly behavior by pretending it's actually better for everyone if you peace out. It's FYGM just the same. Isn't this just arguing that immigrants are cowards, though? I am fairly sure that most immigrants leave their countries due to domestic troubles of varying degrees of severity, so isn't a broad brushed demand for people to tough it out making a very basic claim that the act of emigration itself is cowardice? It is the case that my own ancestors left their nations due to problems ranging from fairly minor (escaping family) to quite severe (escaping brutal oppression). It just seems bizarre for an American to make a claim that emigration is an act of cowards when, essentially, the bulk of us are therefore descended from cowards? Also what makes you think people emigrating are privileged enough to be insulated from a downward spiral? I know that I would be deeply affected by such an event and I am certain most other people considering or outright planning emigration would also not be sufficiently insulated, as wouldn't this very insulation eliminate a desire to emigrate from one's own country in the first place?
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Apr 3, 2014 00:47
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:It just seems bizarre for an American to make a claim that emigration is an act of cowards when, essentially, the bulk of us are therefore descended from cowards? Not to be a drive by pedant, but I'm pretty sure every human being alive today has somebody somewhere in the entirety of their ancestry that could be reasonably called a coward. That really doesn't have a lot of bearing on a given person's moral fiber.
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Apr 3, 2014 00:54
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It's difficult for me to get across how disappointing it is to see the same "how to prevail over the oligarchs" canards getting thrown around. Oh maybe we should get mean in supporting Democratic candidates. Maybe we should use hurtful words and out gays as gay. Maybe we should leave the country! That would make them eat their words. Listen to me. A great holocaust was committed against the collective memory of the working people of the United States. Massacres were committed. People with labor or anarchist backgrounds were barred from entering the country. Until we fix the gap in people's memory this is a losing battle from the start.
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Apr 3, 2014 01:08
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