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Except there are tons of references to orcs "multiplying", Azog is the son of Bolg, and Saruman made new orcs. It's a loving mess!
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Mar 28, 2014 15:58
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Where are all the women orcs 
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Mar 28, 2014 17:10
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They were in the movies, right next to the male orcs.
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Mar 28, 2014 17:13
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Are there more weapons with names than women?
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Mar 28, 2014 20:06
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Hogge Wild posted:Are there more weapons with names than women? Decent question and surprisingly difficult to answer. I think the answer is "yes" if you're just talking about on-screen characters and on-screen weapons in the primary stories but "no" if you're counting appendices, etc. Also depends on how much screen time the woman needs -- Rose Cotton, for example, only gets a few lines, I think Frodo's mother gets mentioned once or twice but is never on screen, etc. Same issue as to whether or not you count the Entwives, who actually get a few solid pages of discussion and poetry in the text and more in the appendices but are never "on screen" as it were.
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Mar 28, 2014 20:18
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euphronius posted:Except there are tons of references to orcs "multiplying", Azog is the son of Bolg, and Saruman made new orcs. Saruman's orcs were very specifically orcs bred with humans and the logistics of that are either hilarious or deeply disturbing. I have almost entirely allowed the movie version to become my mental image of the how Saruman's orcs were created.
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Mar 28, 2014 21:17
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Saruman's Orcs are Half-elven. So each chooses to be mortal or immortal.
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Mar 28, 2014 21:18
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rypakal posted:Saruman's orcs were very specifically orcs bred with humans and the logistics of that are either hilarious or deeply disturbing. I have almost entirely allowed the movie version to become my mental image of the how Saruman's orcs were created. I kind of assume that mix was done like through test tube magic or something and not what would probably actually be rape now that I think about it even slightly because even if there are female orcs I'm guessing normal human men wouldn't be all into that Levitate fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 21:37
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Decent question and surprisingly difficult to answer. I think the answer is "yes" if you're just talking about on-screen characters and on-screen weapons in the primary stories but "no" if you're counting appendices, etc. Also depends on how much screen time the woman needs -- Rose Cotton, for example, only gets a few lines, I think Frodo's mother gets mentioned once or twice but is never on screen, etc. Same issue as to whether or not you count the Entwives, who actually get a few solid pages of discussion and poetry in the text and more in the appendices but are never "on screen" as it were. In all seriousness though, would the lack of female characters necessarily make the work sexist? Because one thing that has always impressed me about Tolkien was that the women that did appear were fairly impressive and just as capable, if not more so, than their male counterparts. See Galadriel, Eowyn, and Luthien. If this is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened I apologize and I'll take back my question.
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Mar 28, 2014 21:46
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Hogge Wild posted:Are there more weapons with names than women? I'm not sure if this is trolling or not, but the answer is probably "yes" if you only count women with direct roles in the stories. That said, it's a question that implies a non-importance to women: a common criticism of Tolkien in some circles, and a misplaced one in my opinion. Wisest creature in Middle-Earth? Galadriel. Most valiant character in The Lord of the Rings? Eowyn (though you could make a decent case for Aragorn or Sam). Who held Melkor at bay? Hint: it wasn't Thingol. Who destroyed the Two Trees? Hint: it wasn't Melkor. Who did the Elves revere above all others (save Illuvatar)? Elbereth. And so on.
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Mar 28, 2014 21:50
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Levitate posted:Where are all the women orcs Tolkien posted:There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known.
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Mar 28, 2014 21:51
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To some extent probably...the major characters are all men, women play a secondary role in everything even if they are given more attention than just "sit there and look pretty". I feel like his women characters are generally done alright but like I said none of them are really major players, even in the Silmarillion more of the notables are men. I guess it'd be more interesting and accurate to have a woman's opinion on it.
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Mar 28, 2014 21:53
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euphronius posted:Saruman's Orcs are Half-elven. So each chooses to be mortal or immortal. The choice of fates isn't inherent to Half-Elves, just to descendants of Earendil.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:18
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I think how Tolkien left the origins of the Orcs ambiguous was actually a good idea even if he didn't want to. If anything it makes their brutal violence and remorselessness that much more frightening/interesting. It's the same thing with some other poo poo in the Silmarillion that was left unanswered; as in it made their story better in some ways, such as Ungoliant.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Decent question and surprisingly difficult to answer. I think the answer is "yes" if you're just talking about on-screen characters and on-screen weapons in the primary stories but "no" if you're counting appendices, etc. Also depends on how much screen time the woman needs -- Rose Cotton, for example, only gets a few lines, I think Frodo's mother gets mentioned once or twice but is never on screen, etc. Same issue as to whether or not you count the Entwives, who actually get a few solid pages of discussion and poetry in the text and more in the appendices but are never "on screen" as it were. The assburgers site says that 18% of Tolkien's characters were women, and that is more than I would have guessed. http://lotrproject.com/statistics/#raceandsex Looking at the Wikipedia's weapon list, there aren't many named things. Maybe it only feels like there are more named swords than women because they get so much screentime. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Middle-earth_weapons_and_armour Ynglaur posted:I'm not sure if this is trolling or not, but the answer is probably "yes" if you only count women with direct roles in the stories. That said, it's a question that implies a non-importance to women: a common criticism of Tolkien in some circles, and a misplaced one in my opinion. Wisest creature in Middle-Earth? Galadriel. Most valiant character in The Lord of the Rings? Eowyn (though you could make a decent case for Aragorn or Sam). Who held Melkor at bay? Hint: it wasn't Thingol. Who destroyed the Two Trees? Hint: it wasn't Melkor. Who did the Elves revere above all others (save Illuvatar)? Elbereth. It doesn't imply anything like that. Tolkien just liked writing more about men and swords.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:35
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Speaking of Ungoliant was Tolkien the first to do giant evil spiders? Because that's a less obvious staple fantasy cliché but not one to forget.
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Mar 28, 2014 23:49
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Eowyn is a hugely important character that always seems to get overlooked when people try and make their Tolkien is sexist points.
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Mar 28, 2014 23:56
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Levitate posted:To some extent probably...the major characters are all men, women play a secondary role in everything even if they are given more attention than just "sit there and look pretty". I personally consider Galadriel to be a major player. I think in many respects she embodies the entire story arc of the Noldor as a people. Her father was slain by Morgoth; her brother by Sauron. Yet she still had the pride to defy the Valar after The War of Wrath and stay in Middle-Earth to found her own realm.
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Mar 29, 2014 00:08
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Levitate posted:I kind of assume that mix was done like through test tube magic or something and not what would probably actually be rape now that I think about it even slightly because even if there are female orcs I'm guessing normal human men wouldn't be all into that Futurama did an episode about that combination. The other way is pretty awful to contemplate. Particularly when you consider Galadrial's daughter.
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Mar 29, 2014 00:27
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Levitate posted:To some extent probably...the major characters are all men, women play a secondary role in everything even if they are given more attention than just "sit there and look pretty". I'm a lady and in general happy with Tolkien's presentation of women. Yeah, there's aren't very many, but like others have said, the ones that are there are usually not only important but also completely under their own agency. Galadriel and Melian are both undisputed rulers above their husbands, Haleth is not only a warrior but the leader and namesake of an entire people, Eowyn is the obvious example of a woman taking charge of her own life and decisions and proving herself not only equal but even more capable than men, even Nienor is brave enough to defy her mother's orders and disguise herself as a man to take care of her family. Actually my biggest complaint about Tolkien's women is Luthien. She's immensely powerful, willing to make her own decisions and stand by them no matter what, and even takes back a Silmaril from Melkor almost by herself (yeah, Beren was there but he wouldn't have gotten anywhere without her). Yet despite all that what she's most remembered for is being beautiful. "You can be strong and beautiful" is a good message, but I can't help but feel that Luthien gets shorted in being primarily remembered just for being beautiful instead of a hero.
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Mar 29, 2014 00:31
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Didn't Luthien destroy a tower of Sauron by singing?
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Mar 29, 2014 00:38
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I don't think melian is quite an undisputed ruler, she's wise and powerful but generally lets thingol call the shots and do whatever he wants even when she knows it's stupid and will end poorly.
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Mar 29, 2014 01:06
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True. It would have been better to say undisputedly more powerful.
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Mar 29, 2014 01:13
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On re-reading The Lord of the Rings recently (my first time reading it as an adult), the problem I saw with Eowyn is that her character motivation seems to be almost entirely romantic desire for fey-blooded supermen. She desires Aragorn, is rejected, and seems to mix internalized depression from that with the entirely legitimate "Guarding the home is stupid if you losing destroys the world," and goes off to die in battle. On failing at that, she becomes despondent until her courtship by Faramir (mini-Aragorn). She's a great character, I like her, and I think her motivations make sense, but it's still awfully male-centric. (Loads better than Arwen, who doesn't utter a word until she's Mrs. Strider.  )
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Mar 29, 2014 01:13
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Ynglaur posted:I personally consider Galadriel to be a major player. I think in many respects she embodies the entire story arc of the Noldor as a people. Galadriel's father was Finarfin, who stayed in Valinor. Her uncle Fingolfin was killed by Morgoth in single combat.  Agreed about her story being the essential Noldor one, though. Up to and including spending the Second and Third Ages mourning for the lost glory of how things used to be, and using her power including that of the ring Nenya, to physically impede the progress of time in her little corner of the world. Talk about pride.
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Mar 29, 2014 01:49
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I think it sort of depends whether you believe Aragorn's view when he points out that Eowyn doesn't really love him, she loves the idea of him and the freedom he has. She doesn't fall for him as a person, she falls for the idea that being with him would be a way out from a suffocating situation. It's a little more complicated that just being motivated by romantic love, though it's still male-centric in that males embody the freedom she actually desires. I agree with you about the Faramir thing, though, as much as I love them as a couple because they are my two favorite characters.
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Mar 29, 2014 01:51
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Radio! posted:I think it sort of depends whether you believe Aragorn's view when he points out that Eowyn doesn't really love him, she loves the idea of him and the freedom he has. She doesn't fall for him as a person, she falls for the idea that being with him would be a way out from a suffocating situation. It's a little more complicated that just being motivated by romantic love, though it's still male-centric in that males embody the freedom she actually desires. I just listened to the episode the Tolkien Professor does on Eowyn, and I felt like he did a good job explaining her character's motivations and story arc. To summarize(poorly); Eowyn felt stifled by her society. The Rohirrim are mentioned as loving warriors and warfare for their own sake by Faramir, who goes on to say that as Gondor has declined, it has come to love war in the same way. Eowyn felt that she had to be a warrior in order to gain respect and status because thats the only way she knew how to make something of herself. This relates to why she seemed to idolize Aragorn and became depressed when left behind. She seems to grow in her confrontation with the Witch-King since she confronts him not for the thrills of being a warrior or gaining glory, but to protect and defend her lord and kin. Once in the house of healing, she doesn't seem to give a drat about all the honor they say she has won for herself. She cheers up after hooking up with Faramir, but not because she finally has an awesome Aragorn-esque guy. It's related to how he is able to broden her horizons. Earlier he had spoken about the old days when being a healer and protector were revered above the soldiers and warriors. In sharing this viewpoint with her, she seems to have found a calling and why they decide to start their own little "garden". Thematically, it also fits with Aragorn's crowning as being a throwback to the higher days of greater nobility and wisdom. TL,DR: She's happy not because she got a guy or can do "girly" things like gardening, but because she becomes like Galadriel in a way.
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Mar 29, 2014 04:27
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Oh man, that's really interesting. I never really thought about their work in Ithilien being analogous to Galadriel and Lothlorien but I guess it's pretty obvious thematically.
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Mar 29, 2014 04:32
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Tolkien professor completely redeem my understanding of Eowyn. And Balrog wings...
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Mar 29, 2014 04:36
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rypakal posted:Tolkien professor completely redeem my understanding of Eowyn. Tolkien Prof's guideline to fighting Balrogs: 1: Fight near a cliff, if at all possible. 2:You're still going to die...
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Mar 29, 2014 04:46
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That all makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing it! I need to remember the "stifled by society"/"desiring a free life" angle of Eowyn. It's interesting, much more so than how I had been characterizing her.
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Mar 29, 2014 05:00
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:Galadriel's father was Finarfin, who stayed in Valinor. Her uncle Fingolfin was killed by Morgoth in single combat. Fingolfin fought Morgoth when time stood still at the Iron Hill.  Galadriel's family is pretty badass, is what I'm saying.
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Mar 29, 2014 07:08
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Radio! posted:Actually my biggest complaint about Tolkien's women is Luthien. She's immensely powerful, willing to make her own decisions and stand by them no matter what, and even takes back a Silmaril from Melkor almost by herself (yeah, Beren was there but he wouldn't have gotten anywhere without her). Yet despite all that what she's most remembered for is being beautiful. "You can be strong and beautiful" is a good message, but I can't help but feel that Luthien gets shorted in being primarily remembered just for being beautiful instead of a hero. That was Tolkien complimenting his wife:  rypakal posted:Tolkien professor completely redeem my understanding of Eowyn. Go on...
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Mar 29, 2014 09:04
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Hogge Wild posted:Yeah, I remember this too. It's interesting that he said that, because I always thought that the kinslaying was supposed to be an equivalent for the Original Sin. That one act and all it's repercussions are pretty much what let Morgoth win before the intervention of the Valar and lead to pretty much everything elves ever made falling to pieces to eventually fade away.
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Mar 29, 2014 11:21
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I've been a Tolkien fan my entire life ever since my step father gave me a copy of The Hobbit, but as much as I love the man's works, I adore his courtship of his wife. There was a link somewhere that talks about their love and how they got together, and it's just so drat romantic I love it. I'm a huge sap at heart.
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Mar 29, 2014 13:24
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Gologle posted:I've been a Tolkien fan my entire life ever since my step father gave me a copy of The Hobbit, but as much as I love the man's works, I adore his courtship of his wife. There was a link somewhere that talks about their love and how they got together, and it's just so drat romantic I love it. I'm a huge sap at heart. Tolkien generally didnt care for the tendency for literary analists to look at an author's personal life to discover what may have influenced their works. But this point seems to have an exception. IIRC, he wrote in one of his letters that the scene where Beren was walking through a forest whwn he saw Luthien dancing amid the trees was almost exactly how he saw his own wife for the first time.
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Mar 29, 2014 20:44
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If you think you are a Tolkien nerd listen to about forty hours of Tolkien Professor.
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Mar 29, 2014 20:54
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Ahem, it's spelled "annalist", with two n's. Good catch on Galadriel's father. I always think of her as the last living heir to the Noldorian high kingship, but I suppose that rightfully belongs to Finarfin. Based on this thread, I think I'll go grab those Tolkien Professor podcasts.
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Mar 30, 2014 21:39
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Earlier, it was mentioned in the thread how the Ainulindale chapter of the Silmarilion can be interpreted as an older religious pantheon absorbed into the belief system that was current at the time of it's writing. Could that be interpreted as a deliberate attempt by Tolkien in how he wrote those chapters? Or was that simply a death of the author situation? He already framed the book as being copied from older elven manuscripts(by Bilbo in Rivendel?), so its clear he was aware of how the audience was intended to percieve the book. Not to mention as a medievalist and fan of ancient mythology, he had to have been aware of such things in the old stories he spent his life studying. Can his works be interpreted as the pseudo-Norse pantheon of the Valar having been co-opted by a monotheistic Illuvatar cult? And if so, could that cult have been founded by the men of Numenor? IIRC, that was the only place where overt worship of Eru was specifically mentioned.
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Apr 1, 2014 05:46
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Canemacar posted:Earlier, it was mentioned in the thread how the Ainulindale chapter of the Silmarilion can be interpreted as an older religious pantheon absorbed into the belief system that was current at the time of it's writing.
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Apr 19, 2014 21:57
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