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A few of the Sail charms we've seen have looked pretty dual purpose, like they'd give you some concrete water/boat-related benefit but also a more generally useful amount of endurance or lore or whatever. If you are going to keep all nine Attributes and twenty five Abilities (which I think was a dumb idea, but here we are) then I think you have to be okay with a healthy amount of bleed between them, such that someone with lots of Melee magic and purely mortal Ride and someone with purely mortal Melee and lots of Ride magic are both extremely dangerous when engaged in a cavalry charge. Maybe it's for slightly distinct reasons in game-mechanical terms, and maybe they even both have access to the same charm reachable through two different sets of prereqs.
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Mar 29, 2014 00:21
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A_Raving_Loon posted:Gonna stop you right here. Not exactly, because I never see a charm like "my horse is the fastest." Instead it's always charms like "my horse is 20% faster" which is mathy and can easily become useless unless you're playing in a game where exact horse speeds are important and tracked. "My horse is the fastest" is a clear delineated answer to a question. "Can that guy catch me? No, because my horse is the fastest" vs "I dunno, how fast is my horse normally and how much faster is it now and how fast is his horse?" Now if there was a "My horse is the fastest" charm, then we're totally on to something positive.
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Mar 29, 2014 00:51
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Not really because if two people have that charm you have to have a system to determine the winner of a contest (which would probably just default to a ride roll) which creates a boring arms race.
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Mar 29, 2014 00:56
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It's always been an essence roll off at that point I believe.
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Mar 29, 2014 01:05
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Ferrinus posted:A few of the Sail charms we've seen have looked pretty dual purpose, like they'd give you some concrete water/boat-related benefit but also a more generally useful amount of endurance or lore or whatever. If you are going to keep all nine Attributes and twenty five Abilities (which I think was a dumb idea, but here we are) then I think you have to be okay with a healthy amount of bleed between them, such that someone with lots of Melee magic and purely mortal Ride and someone with purely mortal Melee and lots of Ride magic are both extremely dangerous when engaged in a cavalry charge. Maybe it's for slightly distinct reasons in game-mechanical terms, and maybe they even both have access to the same charm reachable through two different sets of prereqs. This seems like a very reasonable way to go about it. Naturally, that means we'll get the exact opposite of it when the game finally releases. 
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Mar 29, 2014 01:14
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theironjef posted:Not exactly, because I never see a charm like "my horse is the fastest." Instead it's always charms like "my horse is 20% faster" which is mathy and can easily become useless unless you're playing in a game where exact horse speeds are important and tracked. "My horse is the fastest" is a clear delineated answer to a question. "Can that guy catch me? No, because my horse is the fastest" vs "I dunno, how fast is my horse normally and how much faster is it now and how fast is his horse?" Because the game has then placed that "20% more speed!" in a system which fails to make that number mesh with the game. A permanent +Essence on all rolls and static values related to maneuver, evasion, and pursuit while on horse because your horse is fastest and you know how to ride it just right to get that extra edge, is a workable charm. (Or whatever sort of benefits are meaningful in the context of the rest of the system)
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Mar 29, 2014 01:33
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A_Raving_Loon posted:Because the game has then placed that "20% more speed!" in a system which fails to make that number mesh with the game. A permanent +Essence on all rolls and static values related to maneuver, evasion, and pursuit while on horse because your horse is fastest and you know how to ride it just right to get that extra edge, is a workable charm. (Or whatever sort of benefits are meaningful in the context of the rest of the system) Well yeah. That's exactly the point I'm making. The problem with the old Ride Charms (and the Craft charms, and the size of familiars) is that they give these mathy numbers that don't have anything to do with how Exalted is played. Same with the Archery range-adders. They don't do anything in 1st and 2nd edition Exalted and that's bad design that I hope they correct.
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Mar 29, 2014 02:00
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theironjef posted:Well yeah. That's exactly the point I'm making. The problem with the old Ride Charms (and the Craft charms, and the size of familiars) is that they give these mathy numbers that don't have anything to do with how Exalted is played. Same with the Archery range-adders. They don't do anything in 1st and 2nd edition Exalted and that's bad design that I hope they correct. Aren't range increases actually pretty decent in 2e? After all, when a dude has to cover half a kilometer before getting into fighting range, his life is miserable and you get a ton of free potshots.
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Mar 29, 2014 02:10
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Yeah ranges are actually meaningful because there are hard numbers for movement rates. edit: Which is not to say most people pay attention to those numbers or that they aren't a terrible system. cenotaph fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 02:48
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They're also absolutely horrible to use without figurines and a map. Nothing like having to stop and do some trigonometry in the middle of a fight to figure out where each of the five combatants are positioned relative to each other.
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Mar 29, 2014 02:56
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remember that your mobility penalty removes movement from your speed at 1 yard/point, and you can have up to 5 Yards/tick movement pre E5. 11 if you dash. A Power bow has a base range of 350. It really makes the onus of movement on the guy with the sword, essentially. The range guy can be pretty sure he's moving away roughly as fast or faster then the guy with the sword, so it's up to the swordy guy to run him down. There's charms and such, but not looking at those, and excepting some melee charms there aren't too many in the way of Athletics charms for chasing people down, and the Bowman can have those too. 3E puts the onus of keeping far away on the guy with the bow, instead of putting the duty of getting close on the guy with the sword.
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Mar 29, 2014 03:18
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cenotaph posted:Not really because if two people have that charm you have to have a system to determine the winner of a contest (which would probably just default to a ride roll) which creates a boring arms race. If you're at the point where two Exalts whose horses are the fastest are chasing each other, going to an Essence + Ride roll off to find out whose horse is the fastestest is still a lot easier than messing about with exact movement speeds. Ithle01 posted:They're also absolutely horrible to use without figurines and a map. Nothing like having to stop and do some trigonometry in the middle of a fight to figure out where each of the five combatants are positioned relative to each other. Zone-based combat like Starblazer Adventures or a range number line like Diaspora would make me really happy, but I'm not that optimistic about it. Roadie fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 03:58
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Stallion Cabana posted:remember that your mobility penalty removes movement from your speed at 1 yard/point, and you can have up to 5 Yards/tick movement pre E5. 11 if you dash. A Power bow has a base range of 350. It's kind of amazing just how many tax charms Melee had in 2e. Off the top of my head you needed a perfect defense (could be as many as four or five charms right there including prereqs, minimum two), your Lightning Speed/Shadow Races The Light equivalent to close distances, an anti-surprise charm, Hungry Tiger Technique or equivalents if you weren't using a big two-hander, and probably an anti-DV reduction charm like Bulwark or Fivefold Bulwark Stance so a flurry doesn't make mincemeat of you, given how a big weapon can turn you into red paste on the floor. Did I miss anything? I really hope at least a couple of these get folded or that you get lite versions of these charms as part of package deals. Compared with how easy becoming socially capable was, the steep costs of melee combat always stood out to me.
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Mar 29, 2014 04:26
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Roadie posted:If you're at the point where two Exalts whose horses are the fastest are chasing each other, going to an Essence + Ride roll off to find out whose horse is the fastestest is still a lot easier than messing about with exact movement speeds. That's boring and I'm absolutely not saying exact movement speeds are good. Also I wonder what essence minimum "the fastest horse" should be and, if it's not the pinnacle, what charms come after it. But really Ride is a garbage skill when compared to things as encompassing as War, Occult or even Bureaucracy. I think it was the Diaspora guys that, when determining their skill list, asked it would be an interesting skill to have at the top of the pyramid. I think that's a good way to look at it when you have a defined list of skill, especially a relatively short one. Usually "awesome horseman" is mentioned after Warlord, Conqueror, Statesman, Sorcerer or what have you.
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Mar 29, 2014 05:16
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Or you could do what I think they're doing which is that charms that could belong in two categories, like a cavalry charm, and make available from both charm sets. So you could be specialised at War and have the cavalry charm, but not be able to do all the other cool stuff from the Ride set.
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Mar 29, 2014 05:43
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Transient People posted:It's kind of amazing just how many tax charms Melee had in 2e. Off the top of my head you needed a perfect defense (could be as many as four or five charms right there including prereqs, minimum two), your Lightning Speed/Shadow Races The Light equivalent to close distances, an anti-surprise charm, Hungry Tiger Technique or equivalents if you weren't using a big two-hander, and probably an anti-DV reduction charm like Bulwark or Fivefold Bulwark Stance so a flurry doesn't make mincemeat of you, given how a big weapon can turn you into red paste on the floor. Did I miss anything? I really hope at least a couple of these get folded or that you get lite versions of these charms as part of package deals. Compared with how easy becoming socially capable was, the steep costs of melee combat always stood out to me. This was a standard for all combat, and got worse in 2.5. in 2E Exalted, the buy-in cost for Combat would be sometimes two or three times heavier then any other ability. To be a good crafter, you need an Excellency and Craftsmen Need No Tools. Everything else is a bonus. That's only three of four charms, compared to the number you just rattled off. This was increased later by Overdrive charms as well, plus tick and action length PDs. In 2.5, the number increased even further. You needed Resistance as well, at the least, so that's two or three charms provided you don't suck it up and buy the armor- which will be inefficient compared to buying the charms-, but then the dude with the bow has you by the balls for the entire combat and it takes forever to put that poo poo on. And even with the abilities you already had, you had to get more. No longer could you rely on the cheap 4m PD to keep you safe in combat, you needed even more stuff, meaning 'I want to not die in Combat' turned from 'PD' to 'Get these 5-6 charms' It was basically power creep, but rather then introducing charms that could do anything old ones could but better they continually raised buy-in cost for combat. Well in theory it would, at least, but considering how rarely 2E actually stated characters up as enemies or w/e, and how badly they are, it mostly comes down to a weird bargaining scenario with the ST. Stallion Cabana fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 06:30
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Out of curiosity, what was the resistance charm(s) you needed to buy? The in-combat heals? Ox-Body? Adamant Skin Technique-alikes?
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Mar 29, 2014 06:36
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cenotaph posted:But really Ride is a garbage skill when compared to things as encompassing as War, Occult or even Bureaucracy. I think it was the Diaspora guys that, when determining their skill list, asked it would be an interesting skill to have at the top of the pyramid. I think that's a good way to look at it when you have a defined list of skill, especially a relatively short one. Usually "awesome horseman" is mentioned after Warlord, Conqueror, Statesman, Sorcerer or what have you. If Sail, Ride, and Survival were combined into Wayfaring it would at least be a good central place for Odysseus†/Aragorn/Tintin††/Dora the Explorer†††/Pi Patel/Lemuel Gulliver††††/Dante flavor without being diluted by Charms being picky about the exact manner in which you're traveling, navigating, and living off the land. † Well, he was actually kind of terrible at wayfaring, but I guess we can just blame that on the gods screwing with his rolls all the time. †† Seriously, that guy can just fly a plane like it ain't no thing? I thought he was supposed to be a reporter! ††† That map is at least an Artifact 1 to keep changing all the time. †††† That reminds me, Lilliput would make for a cool Wyld-tainted land in the West. But the writers decided to keep the same skills from 2e (except make them worse with the stupid Brawl/Martial Arts thing) so 
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Mar 29, 2014 06:43
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I don't think the answer for Sail or Ride is, "The game must have meaningful subsystems for these traits to be of value." Ride Charms should be valuable and desirable any time you're on, near, or inside of a mount. The reason I found +numbers to SpeedStats to be boring has nothing to do with the subsystems those things use because I want my Ride charms to be useful even when we're not zooming into Chase Scene or whatever. The problem with +numbers to mechanical whatsits that only apply to subsystem XYZ (see page 291) is that unless that particular widget gets broken out all the time, your Charms are not very good, and if it does get broken out all the time, you're the only one interacting with the subsytem meaningfully. Basically I don't want my Ride Charms to only be useful when we're explicitly in Horse Race Time. I want them to be useful in combat, when riding through town, or when trying to get to a destination, which is why a person gets Ride in the first place.
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Mar 29, 2014 06:48
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Transient People posted:Out of curiosity, what was the resistance charm(s) you needed to buy? The in-combat heals? Ox-Body? Adamant Skin Technique-alikes? the new Ox-Body Soak Tree. Because it became cheaper to use those then a PD, your best bet in 2.5 was to, as always, have a super high PDV, then a lot of Soak- a lot of which came insanely cheapely for Solars, who could get 8-10 Soak per charm-, in case something got past you. The inability to PD just anything meant that you replaced the idea of a 2E 2/7 Filter with a PD/Parry/Soak filter. Hardness was still 100% useless, but the lowered Overwhelming meant that it wasn't completely unviable to take a punch or two. Though at the same time as I say that any splat that had Post Soak damage was not one you wanted to get hit by. So you would PD anything with Crippling, Parry anything that had high damage or overwhelming, because these were generally combined with poo poo accuracy, and anything with low Damage you could soak off, because they had lovely Overwhelming but high Accuracy. This wasn't perfect, because if you only had high Soak, for example, not only would you get punched by high damage weapons that cut through your soak, but the High Accuracy, Low Damage weapons could use Post-Soak damage enhancers, Hungry Tiger Technique, and things like that to cut through your soak. But you couldn't just have high PDV either, because there were a ton of charms that halved DV now extremely cheaply. And the DV halvers were never, ever explained on if they were a penalty you could negate with Bulwark Stance. Or rather they were. One writer said 'Yes you can negate the penalty', one said 'No because if it was a penalty we would have called it a penalty.' And this is why 2.5 ratcheted the cost of combat Buy-in up super high. Stallion Cabana fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 06:55
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Roadie posted:†† Seriously, that guy can just fly a plane like it ain't no thing? I thought he was supposed to be a reporter! He's a little Belgian Indiana Jones, he can do anything Indiana can. Besides, it was the early 30s, that plane has a lever and two knobs, tops. PS this is not true, airplanes had all kinds of crazy crap(primarily involved with just keeping the engine from falling apart or catching on fire) at that point that would have made flying without training crazy impossible. PPS Most seaplanes wouldn't get very far on a drunk guy's burp, either.
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Mar 29, 2014 09:27
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cenotaph posted:That's boring and I'm absolutely not saying exact movement speeds are good. Also I wonder what essence minimum "the fastest horse" should be and, if it's not the pinnacle, what charms come after it.
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Mar 29, 2014 15:46
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Stallion Cabana posted:remember that your mobility penalty removes movement from your speed at 1 yard/point, and you can have up to 5 Yards/tick movement pre E5. 11 if you dash. A Power bow has a base range of 350. This had better actually be true. "It effectively gives you like twelve extra turns over your opponent if you use it correctly" should not be the core strength of Archery in game-mechanical terms, even if it is within the narrative. When your foe gets shot after shot on you as you scramble to close, that should just be like a bonus they get on their turn rather than a pile of separate turns during which your guy does nothing. Have they removed "Martial Arts" a skill separate from Brawl yet? Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 15:54
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I'd hope they borrow from one of the 2Eisms I liked - magnitude. Have an abstract unit of in-game measure, clear guidelines for how large each unit of it should be, and diminishing returns on turning real-units into game units. The difference between 1 and 5 meters from someone is more important than 340 vs 345, so only make one matter. Range shenanigans are easier to keep in check if no battlefield is ever more than, say, 10 units large.
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Mar 29, 2014 16:15
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Ferrinus posted:This had better actually be true. "It effectively gives you like twelve extra turns over your opponent if you use it correctly" should not be the core strength of Archery in game-mechanical terms, even if it is within the narrative. When your foe gets shot after shot on you as you scramble to close, that should just be like a bonus they get on their turn rather than a pile of separate turns during which your guy does nothing. Why would I not tell the truth about something in this regard? I don't have anything to gain by it.
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Mar 29, 2014 16:20
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Stallion Cabana posted:Why would I not tell the truth about something in this regard? I don't have anything to gain by it. I think Ferrinus' uncertainty here was as to whether you were talking about something you had heard as a promise on what design goals intend to deliver, or an actual piece of crunch you'd witnessed firsthand.
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Mar 29, 2014 16:31
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A_Raving_Loon posted:Gonna stop you right here. In Reign, the 4 point advantage that lets you move 5 extra feet a turn without a roll is super worth it and is correctly costed beneath the 5 point advantages which include "having wings" and "cannot be knocked unconscious, have limbs disabled or take wound penalties". That's just the kind of game Reign is. When it takes an action to move faster than your base, being slightly faster than other people lets you do all kind of bullshit like kite people out or escape combat whenever you like. Exalted, on the other hand, is the land of Perfect Defenses, Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kicks and uguu. Moving a bit faster than other people probably ain't worth the xp. If it was Smallville's "you are so fast you can appear in whatever scene you feel like, nevermind how you got there" that would be a bit more thematic, no?
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Mar 29, 2014 18:12
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Stallion Cabana posted:Why would I not tell the truth about something in this regard? I don't have anything to gain by it. You might be deluding yourself! Or I have more finnicky standards than you do or something. I'm not casting aspersions at your honesty or something, just shaking my fist menacingly in 3E's direction in the course of quoting your post. Now, quick, yell at the writers about the Martial Arts skill,
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Mar 29, 2014 20:29
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 I thought they were done with animal loving charms?
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Mar 30, 2014 23:53
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I don't see why that should immediately go towards loving an animal rather than getting unconditional love and devotion, the way a dog would be to it's master.
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Mar 31, 2014 00:20
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Is this a new preview?
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Mar 31, 2014 00:21
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xiw posted:Is this a new preview? No.
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Mar 31, 2014 00:24
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So what role does the First Age play in your games? What's the point of it? Is it a parable against the hubristic excess of the Exalts of the First Age? A picture of where your Circle could take the Third Age? A source of ancient mystery and half-remembered wonder???Strength of Many posted:
Well yeah, that's awful, but bringing something up from a year ago just to beat it up is a bit weird unless you've got something new to add.
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Mar 31, 2014 00:53
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Was there ever actually an apology for that? or was it just a "We'll get back to you when we make it big  " thing?
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Mar 31, 2014 00:58
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Bigup DJ posted:So what role does the First Age play in your games? What's the point of it? Is it a parable against the hubristic excess of the Exalts of the First Age? A picture of where your Circle could take the Third Age? A source of ancient mystery and half-remembered wonder?? For me it's a hook for making each campaign unique. Exalted shines on Big Reveals - so finding out Some Big Thing about the first age is a handy thing to build your campaign around. For example, perhaps the FA Solars were all actually baby-eating demons the whole time, the Usurpation was totally great, and today's Solars are actually something new! Perhaps there never were any FA solars and the whole thing is a sidereal lie! Perhaps the FA was actually 1965 Earth before the nukes hit! In short it's just like the missing Empress or the Deathlords or the Eye of Autocththon - it's a mysterious thing that you can reimagine every time you run the game.
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Mar 31, 2014 01:06
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Andrevian posted:Was there ever actually an apology for that? or was it just a "We'll get back to you when we make it big
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Mar 31, 2014 01:06
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I am reasonably sure he's just poo poo-stirring. Also, when you ask if there was ever an apology, do you mean for that line specifically? Like, in addition to the general one?
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Mar 31, 2014 01:09
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Stephenls posted:I am reasonably sure he's just poo poo-stirring. Considering his new avatar, I think that is a safe bet.
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Mar 31, 2014 01:14
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Transient People posted:Considering his new avatar, I think that is a safe bet. The Cow Who Cried Bad Touch.
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Mar 31, 2014 01:19
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Stephenls posted:I am reasonably sure he's just poo poo-stirring. Also, when you ask if there was ever an apology, do you mean for that line specifically? Like, in addition to the general one? Was there actually a general one? I don't think I remember ever seeing that one. Or at least anything that would count as an actual apology.
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Mar 31, 2014 01:25
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