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Maluco Marinero posted:To make sure I've got this right, I must destroy my family's sense of security, my ability to be a role model for my kids, my ability to support my wife in caring for those kids, and essentially remodel my entire life. There is currently an outbreak of mumps in central Ohio. This is an outbreak that is happening even among the vaccinated, as all vaccines have a failure rate. The unvaccinated are at an even higher risk. Children infected could be sterilized or rendered permanently deaf by the virus. Here is a list of dozens of mumps outbreaks in just the past few years. That is just one of the ones that won't kill them. Xombie fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Mar 30, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 22:46
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This is a bit tangential, but I notice a lot of you guys saying "woo" specifically to refer specifically to "alternative medicine bullshit." What's the origin of that turn of phrase (or terminology I guess)?
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Mar 29, 2014 23:02
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I think it was Randi maybe? I think I read "woo-woo" in one of his books.Maluco Marinero posted:Edit: and to be clear, I don't think I'm on some sort of moral high ground here, but it is naive in the least to say that this is a decision that doesn't have the potential to completely change my family's life for the worse. Calling me a baby murderer is not going to effectively nullify that fact. Dude there is no question here, vaccination is a bedrock principle of being in modern society. You don't let your spouse beat your kids because it's like, too tough to break it to her that it's wrong. Well this is worse.
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Mar 29, 2014 23:15
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If it were me, here is what I would do. Call a social worker, let them know what is going on, so there is a record beforehand if your wife goes batshit crazy later. Take the kids to get vaccinated, and if they are older than say 8, explain to them this is very important for their health, but that mommy has a very strange idea about it, so they should not mention it to her. Might even ask the nurse or doctor to also explain this, that the shot is safe, that they need it, and anyone who thinks it was dangerous is incorrect and it's better not to mention it. Essentially calling your wife's bluff. If she actually would leave you over this, she is literally insane and you might as well sever now, because that is just ridiculous levels of insanity to be that married to something that is objectively harmful. If there is a custody battle, refer back to social worker who has records of why you were doing it. It will make any lies or half truths your wife might invent or play up look like the bitter black mail it will be.
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Mar 29, 2014 23:25
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Thanks. I wanna change the title of this thread so bad, I thought I could since I started it but I guess I can't 
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Mar 29, 2014 23:27
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Ddraig posted:Every single one of these will be hosed if you kids get one of these diseases, anyway. Imagine having to apologize to the mother of a dead or hosed up infant, too. "I'm sorry that your infant caught whooping cough from my older, non vaccinated child. You have to understand, my wife wouldn't let me vaccinate my kids." That would make any mother feel better, I'm sure. By not vaccinating your children you aren't just putting them at risk, you are putting every child around them at risk as well. Pohl fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 23:33
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Thanks for all this. For what its worth, my wife's not crazy. I love her and she has my full support in every other facet of life, as she has me. Anti-vax and homeopathy came hand in hand to her at a time when she was getting ready for our first child, and with fuckers like Owen's Homeopathic selling hard on prophylaxis kits like they're a credible Vaccination alternative, she was taken in on the narrative. We're a lot more stable financially these days, and my work life balance is a lot better, I think the relationship can bear it so I just have to suck it up and make it happen. I've managed to stop her using homeopathy like its a credible alternative to seeing the doctor, so I guess some of the battle has been won.
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Mar 29, 2014 23:43
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Maluco Marinero posted:Thanks for all this. For what its worth, my wife's not crazy. I love her and she has my full support in every other facet of life, as she has me. I don't think she is crazy. I think she is really loving wrong, and not just wrong in a, well, that is dumb way. I'm sure a lot of these responses seem harsh to you, and while I can't speak for anyone else, I can say personally that nothing pisses me off or gets me as riled up as anti-vaccination rhetoric. It isn't just that I think it is crazy; it is stupidity and ignorance taken to a level that I can't even begin to stomach it. If a parent has religious issues with medicine and wants to let their child die, I can just shake my head and feel kind of lovely. By demonizing vaccinations, however, parents are putting the lives of everyone around their children at risk. I think that people are right when they say that the anti vaccination crowd doesn't remember how bad these diseases are. I'm a bit older, and I grew up with a dad that was crippled by Polio when he was a child. Anti vaccination parents can get away with it because the majority of the population still vaccinates their children, but we are reaching a point where enough children aren't being vaccinated to be effective. Let me be very clear here, with the rates of vaccines in the US, un-vaccinated children, teens and adults are not going to be safe for much longer. I want you to think about the fact that these diseases, which were once absent from the US, are now back and strike on a regular basis. That is not an accident, and it isn't going to get better. Get your kids vaccinated.
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Mar 29, 2014 23:50
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Maluco Marinero posted:We're a lot more stable financially these days, and my work life balance is a lot better, I think the relationship can bear it so I just have to suck it up and make it happen. See this is weird to me. How is the health of your kids not more important than your relationship? You should have done it back when it would have hosed up your relationship. You're lucky you made it till now without your kids getting sick. e: I know people aren't robots, I just don't see how this is any different from the standard excuses I hear from parents about why they abuse or neglect their kids. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Mar 30, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 23:55
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SedanChair posted:See this is weird to me. How is the health of your kids not more important than your relationship? You should have done it back when it would have hosed up your relationship. You're lucky you made it till now without your kids getting sick. He already mentioned that he was also fed bad information at the start. And plus people aren't beep-boop robots, and emotionally charged and agonizing questions like "is the risk of my kids suffering because me and my wife divorced worse than the risk of my kids getting a very rare but very deadly disease?" are never easy to approach with a cool and level head. Not everyone can be goony as gently caress and reassure themselves by saying "logically I'm morally right, bitch  ". It is incredibly easy for people to say what they'd do having never been in his position, but it's much more difficult for him to do it in reality.-EDIT- The guy is trying to do the right thing and is looking for support and the majority of you are calling him a baby-murdering Hitler. Chill the gently caress out, guys, you're only sabotaging any attempt to help him. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Mar 30, 2014 |
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Mar 30, 2014 00:03
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SedanChair posted:See this is weird to me. How is the health of your kids not more important than your relationship? You should have done it back when it would have hosed up your relationship. You're lucky you made it till now without your kids getting sick. gently caress, I had pneumonia when I was 22. I almost died. When I was 30 and I was getting a flu shot, on a fluke, I demanded a pneumonia shot, too. The pharmacist looked at me like I was nuts, but gently caress, it took me over a year to recover from the bout of pneumonia I had when I was 20, why wouldn't I do everything I could to protect myself? I think a lot of anti vaccine people don't have to worry about diseases because they were vaccinated as children, but somehow they find the moral courage to leave their kids unprotected. Vaccines are a loving miracle, and like all man made miracles, we have managed to poo poo on them.
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Mar 30, 2014 00:09
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Who What Now posted:The guy is trying to do the right thing and is looking for support and the majority of you are calling him a baby-murdering Hitler. Chill the gently caress out, guys, you're only sabotaging any attempt to help him. You chill out. This is an important conversation and there are going to be drastic replies. No one has called him Hitler. Fact is, I think he is taking this conversation better than you are. He understands the importance, and he understands the passion with which people reply.
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Mar 30, 2014 00:16
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Maluco Marinero posted:Thanks for all this. For what its worth, my wife's not crazy. I love her and she has my full support in every other facet of life, as she has me. Glad to hear it. I'd still call a social worker, just to be safe.
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Mar 30, 2014 00:57
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How old are you kids? If they're older than three or four, then even if her theories were true they'd be safe. I have autism, and one of the most important things to know about it is that it develops extremely early on in life, and becomes apparent when a person's a toddler. If you can't convince her that vaccines don't cause autism, make that case that they're too old for it to develop anyway. Autism is a disorder that comes from the basic structure of a person's brain, and it can't develop after the initial years of a person's life.
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Mar 30, 2014 01:16
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I haven't seen this study linked here yet, so forgive me if it is a repeat: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365 The essential finding is that convincing anti-vaccine people is an uphill battle, because being exposed to accurate information regarding vaccines makes anti-vaxers even less likely to vaccinate their kids. People are so stubborn that even if they are convinced that there is no link between vaccines and autism and of the benefits of vaccines, the mere fact that someone tried to change their mind leads them to reinforce their anti-vaccine stance.
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Mar 30, 2014 01:29
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Pohl posted:gently caress, I had pneumonia when I was 22. I almost died. I'm in the same boat. I got the swine flu strain from 2009, and I ended up getting post-flu pneumonia. I didn't almost die, but I lost 30 pounds I couldn't really afford to lose and could barely move for three weeks. I had to go from 8 mile runs to working back up from less than a mile. Now I get the flu shot every year. I know it's not always effective every year, but if I can dodge the flu again, I will.
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Mar 30, 2014 01:31
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Pohl posted:Imagine having to apologize to the mother of a dead or hosed up infant, too. "I'm sorry that your infant caught whooping cough from my older, non vaccinated child. You have to understand, my wife wouldn't let me vaccinate my kids." I want to make sure this gets repeated. This isn't some internal familial thing, this is an issue of public health. If you turn the keys to your car when you are drunk, the worst case scenario isn't that you drive into a tree and die, it's that you plough into a van and take out half of a family. It's not a life or death matter either. You think turning autistic is bad? What about losing your hearing or becoming paralyzed? How do you explain to your kid in a wheelchair that they could be playing catch with you if they had gotten a simple shot that doesn't even cause the bad effects their mom says they do? A hero is a person who does the right thing despite the path being difficult or dangerous. You have to be a hero for your children.
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Mar 30, 2014 01:36
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How has no one ever mentioned a pneumonia vaccine to me? I've had pneumonia twice - once at 4 and once at 14 and both times brought me close to death. Every time you have pneumonia it apparently makes you more susceptible in the future as well so I need to get on this poo poo asap. Also - Holy poo poo Eej, that was the most inspirational poo poo i've ever heard.
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Mar 30, 2014 01:48
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An Angry Bug posted:How old are you kids? If they're older than three or four, then even if her theories were true they'd be safe. I have autism, and one of the most important things to know about it is that it develops extremely early on in life, and becomes apparent when a person's a toddler. If you can't convince her that vaccines don't cause autism, make that case that they're too old for it to develop anyway. Autism is a disorder that comes from the basic structure of a person's brain, and it can't develop after the initial years of a person's life. No but you see vaccines cause changes that lead to autism when the brain is that young and very malleable because reasons.
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Mar 30, 2014 02:03
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Eej posted:I want to make sure this gets repeated. This isn't some internal familial thing, this is an issue of public health. If you turn the keys to your car when you are drunk, the worst case scenario isn't that you drive into a tree and die, it's that you plough into a van and take out half of a family. This is what gets me about his argument. Yea maybe vaccinating your kids will hurt your relationship, but you know what else will? If your kid is crippled for life because you didn't want to have a really hard talk, I'd put good money on that straining a relationship too.
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Mar 30, 2014 02:51
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We have an anti-vaxxer in one my graduate level public policy courses. He brought up the usual stuff regarding toxins and formaldehyde, which is pretty passé I guess but hadn't encountered it in the wild before and I kind of didn't expect it from a man who is also apparently an RN. An anti vaccine nurse was not a combination I expected, but I guess it's like someone was saying earlier that people who are experts in one field overestimate their expertise in others.
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Mar 30, 2014 02:57
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Tatum Girlparts posted:This is what gets me about his argument. Yea maybe vaccinating your kids will hurt your relationship, but you know what else will? If your kid is crippled for life because you didn't want to have a really hard talk, I'd put good money on that straining a relationship too. My (anecdotal) experience with anti-vaxers is that at the end of day, it's NEVER about the well-being of the kids. It's invariably about blame deflection. They consider not vaccinating a non-action. Since they did not DO anything, they will never have to feel guilty for the consequences. Not vaccinating is a psychological win-win for them. Attempting to understand their position from a utilitarian point of view never gets anywhere because, (once again in my anecdotal experience) the well being of the kid is not the goal. Once I accepted this, and took their arguments as straw-grasping attempts to rationalize their position, it became lot easier to empathize with them. It still infuriates me to no end, but at least it makes sense.
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Mar 30, 2014 07:36
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I'd like to offer up my story as a more organic and less batshit example of how some folks could end up on the anti-vaccination bandwagon. (For the record, I'm pro-vaccination.) The way my mother tells it, when I went in for my first MMR shot, I went completely stiff as a board and started screaming shortly after. (This wasn't my reaction to getting a shot; I'd gotten others.) They tried a half-dose next time with the same result. For whatever reason, I was a part of that extremely small statistic that has an adverse reaction to the vaccine. There were some hitches in my development after that, not crawling, etc. I was diagnosed around age six with sensory integration dysfunction/sensory processing disorder, which is not officially recognized as an actual thing and is an important-sounding way of saying "your kid has some kind of sensory or attention issues, who knows." The point was I had issues balancing and dealing with sensory input so I had to go to physical therapy for a while. (Haven't been back to any sort of place that could better diagnose these things since as it's not a big deal; this was the mid-80s.) Now, on a purely anecdotal front, my mother believes that the MMR vaccine caused those issues. She witnessed her child having a bad reaction to it -- not just having sensory issues after the fact, but having a notable reaction at the clinic itself -- and shortly after that noticed some developmental issues. Statistics are great when you're thinking logically, but when you've witnessed your only child have an extremely poor reaction to a vaccine, you're not really thinking about how many confirmed measles cases are out there -- the only thing you care about is your child being well. Later, this manifested in another way. My mother didn't want any of her friends to go through the terror she experienced when I had my reaction, so she warned them about the MMR vaccine and what it could potentially do to their child. For these people, it's less about celebrities, organic alternatives, etc. and more about the fact that someone they trust reportedly had a terrible experience. This snowballs through connections and becomes less personal, but the message often remains the same in that game of telephone. Again, despite my own bad reaction to one particular vaccine, I am pro-vaccination. I'm the vast exception to the rule. It's important to get your kids immunized to prevent the spread of some truly horrible crap. But I thought I might explain how some people might get into this mindset in a reasonable, if regrettable, way.
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Mar 30, 2014 09:19
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Tigntink posted:How has no one ever mentioned a pneumonia vaccine to me? I've had pneumonia twice - once at 4 and once at 14 and both times brought me close to death. Every time you have pneumonia it apparently makes you more susceptible in the future as well so I need to get on this poo poo asap. It's not really a blanket protection, since pneumonia can be caused by a lot of different things, including bacteria and fungi, or a different virus. It's still probably good to get it if you're at-risk, though. Last night I posted a facebook status to draw out my anti-vaccer cousin, and my friends and family ended up dogpiling on him. He has two kids, so I really want him to see that not vaccinating them is a dumb, dumb idea.
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Mar 30, 2014 16:22
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There's a ton of batshit ideas about vaccines. My sister recently got the HPV vaccine at school. My cousin, who is the same age (and at the same school), didn't get it because her father believes that having it is some sort of concession to the fact his little angel might be, gasp, having sex at some point in her life. I'm the sole carer for my sister, so it was kind of a no-brainer for her to get the vaccine, because there's absolutely no good reason why she shouldn't and it could help save her life. I tried to reason with my uncle about it, and he stood firm. Not for any solid medical reason, it was purely an issue of morality. Crazy.
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Mar 30, 2014 16:45
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What a loving dirtbag.
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Mar 30, 2014 16:50
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I know her and she's a sensible girl, so chances are good she's going to get it when she's old enough to not need his consent (or maybe get it on the sly, perhaps). It' still a loving stupid reason for her to not get a vaccine which can help prevent cervical cancer because her father can't imagine her ever having sex (or simply not wanting to think about it)
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Mar 30, 2014 16:54
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Ddraig posted:I tried to reason with my uncle about it, and he stood firm. Not for any solid medical reason, it was purely an issue of morality. Crazy. I work with a guy that thinks we should not distribute contraceptives to teens and teach them about sex safety because it 'enables the wrong behavior.' Some people think that abstinence-only is an effective method of teaching their kids about reproductive health and responsible coupling.  And they vote.
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Mar 30, 2014 17:54
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When pressed they'll admit that abstinence may not be as effective in reducing all these arbitrary things you're throwing at them like "pregnancy" and "STDs" but it is the only method that punishes sex with sores, poverty and death! Maybe that's for the best! *worships a flayed god totem*
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Mar 30, 2014 17:58
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Ddraig posted:I know her and she's a sensible girl, so chances are good she's going to get it when she's old enough to not need his consent (or maybe get it on the sly, perhaps). It' still a loving stupid reason for her to not get a vaccine which can help prevent cervical cancer because her father can't imagine her ever having sex (or simply not wanting to think about it) Is she wearing a promise ring? Does he take her to purity balls? If so, call CPS, this is a symptom of a deeper problem.
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Mar 30, 2014 17:58
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DeceasedHorse posted:We have an anti-vaxxer in one my graduate level public policy courses. He brought up the usual stuff regarding toxins and formaldehyde, which is pretty passé I guess but hadn't encountered it in the wild before and I kind of didn't expect it from a man who is also apparently an RN. An anti vaccine nurse was not a combination I expected, but I guess it's like someone was saying earlier that people who are experts in one field overestimate their expertise in others.
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Mar 30, 2014 18:17
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LeJackal posted:Is she wearing a promise ring? Does he take her to purity balls? If so, call CPS, this is a symptom of a deeper problem. Nothing like that. I live in the UK, so promise rings/purity balls aren't really a thing here (they may be, but I've only ever heard of them in an American context) He's just a very traditional guy, I guess, and very set in his ways. I guess him being very weird about that kind of thing is vaguely understandable in a certain way, as I did have similar feelings myself, then I just looked back at what I was like when I was a teenager: I was a pretty stupid, naive idiot and I wish someone would have explained certain things to me as ignorance is really the biggest problem. Like I said, I'm the sole carer for my sister, so while I may have feelings of "She's up to all sorts without me knowing!", it's stupid, irrational and the best thing to do is to make sure she's informed enough to make sensible decisions (which she won't always, she's a kid and kids do stupid things, hence going for harm reduction rather than "This must never happen and if it does you're forever screwed" method) I guess I'm the 'cool uncle' now, since I'm really the only person she can talk to as her father is way too conservative about issues surrounding sex and everything associated with it. It's a shame that she has to rely on me being her source of information since she doesn't have that kind of relationship with her father.
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Mar 30, 2014 18:32
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Ddraig posted:Nothing like that. I live in the UK, so promise rings/purity balls aren't really a thing here (they may be, but I've only ever heard of them in an American context) It's weird that people think "getting/giving my child the HPV vaccine is the same as giving them a bunch of condoms" and on top of that they think "Giving my child condoms and teaching them about safe sex is the same as buying them a set of dildos and a membership in a sex club".
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Mar 30, 2014 19:06
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Crain posted:It's weird that people think "getting/giving my child the HPV vaccine is the same as giving them a bunch of condoms" and on top of that they think "Giving my child condoms and teaching them about safe sex is the same as buying them a set of dildos and a membership in a sex club". I guess they just think that if they don't talk about it, it won't happen. I guess a lot of them don't really remember how they were as teenagers, because that kind of thinking literally never works and if it does it's part of a much larger system of repression that extends far beyond things like sex. When I was a teenager, I was really curious about things partly because I was a teenager, and partly because it was so taboo.
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Mar 30, 2014 19:30
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I think that they see it as a behavioral thing. On a personal level, you contract HPV through your behavior, therefore, if you contract HPV you were behaving badly. People against the vaccine completely ignore the larger social issue, which is that an overwhelming majority of the population has been exposed to or carries the virus. When you look at the problem from a social aspect the vaccine makes perfect sense, but if you look at it from a personal responsibility and moral aspect, the vaccine enables immoral behavior and poor choices. The obvious conclusion is, if you don't behave poorly or make poor choices, you don't need the vaccine. This sort of thinking obviously is faulty for all sorts of reasons, but like all moral arguments, you can't win with a rational and realistic viewpoint.
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Mar 30, 2014 19:47
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Crain posted:It's weird that people think "getting/giving my child the HPV vaccine is the same as giving them a bunch of condoms" and on top of that they think "Giving my child condoms and teaching them about safe sex is the same as buying them a set of dildos and a membership in a sex club".
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Mar 30, 2014 20:43
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Even if she does stay his perfect vestal virgin, she could still get raped. Gah, this is like not letting her buy car insurance because it will encourage reckless driving.
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Mar 30, 2014 21:19
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Nessus posted:Ask him if he hopes for grandchildren. Then ask him where he expects them to come from, exactly. Then ask him further how likely it is that her hypothetical future husband was completely chaste until meeting her. And this is exactly why I will always support the HPV vaccine. It's not just about one person's moral choices: it's about those of at least two. Besides. Even if it were, I don't believe for a second that it's right that people should be made to experience completely preventable suffering, along with the possibility of permanent damage and death, because they made a mistake. To me, Christian morality is about forgiveness, selflessness and love. This sort of thing feels like a perversion of that.
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Mar 30, 2014 21:28
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VitalSigns posted:Even if she does stay his perfect vestal virgin, she could still get raped. Not even that. You can be exposed many different ways that have nothing to do with sex or even with your knowledge. That's one thing I hate about many diseases being named "Sexually Transmitted Diseases". Yes the largest vector for infection is unprotected sex, but exposure to any bodily fluid from an infected person can lead to infection. This just leads to people avoiding things like the HPV vaccines or even simple AIDS research because "well just don't gently caress people you aren't committed to. "
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Mar 30, 2014 21:53
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Yeah I don't get that opposition to AIDS research. They know babies contract it from their mothers without treatment right? And that even if the baby doesn't get the disease, it still suffers tremendously when it becomes orphaned, right? Anyway my dad is basically the same as that girl's father. When my dad was trying to talk my sister out of moving in with her boyfriend, he told her she couldn't rely on birth control because if her boyfriend thought she'd leave him, the guy would sabotage her pills somehow to get her pregnant so she'd have to stay. Egg-jacking bro's!!!  At least he's not an anti-vaxxer though. As long as it doesn't have anything to do with sex (er, and evolution), he trusts science.
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Mar 30, 2014 22:14
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