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I've been avoiding you the past week week, because I was waiting for you to clarify. You've done so. Barto posted:And everyone wants to be an independent country (aside from a few oddballs) You keep insinuating that. a) saying a thing doesn't make it true b) demonising your opposition won't actually help. You are fully undermining the position of a huge number of people, and that's just not cool. If you can't respect their position, I'm not sure you should be involved in the argument. Maybe you are to close to the wood, to see the trees.
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Apr 1, 2014 18:55
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Pandemonium posted:Again, the little bit I read about this student movement was that it was NOT about Taiwan independence and focused on an issue, ie., lack of transparency and not following dem rules. Not against the trade agreement so much as the way it was illegally rushed through the government. Also not partisan. Looks like that's not the case / no longer the case if the de facto student leader is a DPP political science grad student and weenie politician in training. Business as usual in Taiwan. He can hold multiple opinions simultaneously. He may be an opportunist or a shill for the DPP, but it's also possible his opposition to how the trade agreement was forced through the legislature is genuine.
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Apr 2, 2014 01:38
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url posted:I've been avoiding you the past week week, because I was waiting for you to clarify. You kinda live in your own fantasy world. You're illiterate here, what do you know? You haven't said one thing in the entire conversation that didn't scream "Uninformed person." There isn't a huge number of people who want full union with China. I went to college here, I've worked here for years, I've met at least thousands of people- and only one has ever suggested that position. At the time she said it, the entire room of 20 people was suddenly very uncomfortable- no one loving agrees with this sort of thing. If someone says that openly, even in a city like Taipei, it's a head turning statement that cause giggles more than anger. There are a huge number of people who grudgingly accept that China will probably absorb Taiwan in the future- but there's also a huge number of people who don't want to accept that sort of future, they want the status quo or better. The vast majority of people want independence or the status quo, and even people who are pro-China mostly don't like mainland Chinese people per se (and as the number of mainland Chinese around here has grown, that bias has grown with it. The previous generation might have feared the mainland, but the current generation who works over there or sees them in Taipei generally feels disgust toward them). The big issue during the protest now isn't pro-China vs. anti-China- everyone would like to be anti-China if they thought it was possible. The older generation that grew up in a fascist education system is resigned to being forced into unification, and the younger generation is fighting back against that feeling of resignation. But why should I take your opinion seriously? The protesters are getting places and achieving their goals, proving your previous opinions wrong (as it was obvious even at the time you said them that you were). So, this post is for the others reading the thread who need some real information- because you're just poo poo posting out of contrarian ignorance at this point.
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Apr 2, 2014 02:10
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A few of the students in the LY had an AMA session earlier today. http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/21xsaz/we_are_students_that_have_taken_over_taiwans/
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Apr 2, 2014 02:34
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Souffle posted:A few of the students in the LY had an AMA session earlier today. Yeah, these students are pretty frank that they are a student movement with no ties to the DPP or KMT and have no wish to receive support from either. That leader, though, I don't know. He feels off. Also, some of their demands are a weeeeeee bit much and smack of cock-eyed optimism/idealism. The insistence the leader has that they are the voice of Taiwanese people is also a weeeeeeee bit "over". Besides, there's a reason democracy in practice is not full-on literal democracy. But whatever, I hope they are able to get some accountability and reform going in the Taiwanese political scene.
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Apr 2, 2014 05:48
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The movement itself can have no ties even if individual members, even the leader, have previously attended or participated in events run by other political organizations. Given that these are PoliSci students, it would be impossible to expect otherwise.
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Apr 2, 2014 07:31
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Pandemonium posted:Yeah, these students are pretty frank that they are a student movement with no ties to the DPP or KMT and have no wish to receive support from either. That leader, though, I don't know. He feels off.
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Apr 2, 2014 08:02
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http://thediplomat.com/2014/04/say-goodbye-to-peaceful-unification/ A good article regarding the possibilities of unification http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20140402000007&cid=1703 And a very hilarious counter-point.
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Apr 2, 2014 09:30
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Barto posted:http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20140402000007&cid=1703 Also someone send help, my eyes rolled back in my head so hard reading that all I can see is brain. e: Ahahaha ending by answering a rhetorical question, and after explicitly stating it's a rhetorical question. sub supau fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 09:44
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Hahahahaah that article is simply adorbs, if only it didn't represent what a small percentage of people here actually believe  I think that this is my favorite line: quote:They have turned the national flag upside down, which is the wrong way round Thank you for elucidating that fact, I thought the blue part was supposed to be on the bottom...
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Apr 2, 2014 09:46
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hitension posted:Hahahahaah that article is simply adorbs, if only it didn't represent what a small percentage of people here actually believe
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Apr 2, 2014 09:52
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TetsuoTW posted:You should go back to posting about how much better you are than people, because at least that was the funny kind of ignorant. You just love posting content-less troll bait, don't you? The majority of your posts are off-hand, substance-less quips at whatever is being discussed. I'd love to hear exactly what you found ignorant in the above post, Lord of Insight and Master of Taiwan, TestuoTW. Otherwise, stop with the obvious and unfunny troll bait.
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Apr 2, 2014 10:32
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Pandemonium posted:You just love posting content-less troll bait, don't you? The majority of your posts are off-hand, substance-less quips at whatever is being discussed. I'd love to hear exactly what you found ignorant in the above post, Lord of Insight and Master of Taiwan, TestuoTW. Otherwise, stop with the obvious and unfunny troll bait.  Tell us more.
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Apr 2, 2014 10:34
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Pandemonium posted:You just love posting content-less troll bait, don't you? The majority of your posts are off-hand, substance-less quips at whatever is being discussed. I'd love to hear exactly what you found ignorant in the above post, Lord of Insight and Master of Taiwan, TestuoTW. Otherwise, stop with the obvious and unfunny troll bait. I think his point is that you watched the Taiwanese equivalent of someone having once said they were in favor of gun control and actually took it seriously. So the guy was at a Taiwan independence rally once. OK? Your point? The Sunflower Movement is not taking funds or direction from the DPP, unless you think this is some sort of Kennedy-was-getting-orders-from-the-pope scenario. Conservative news is of course going to go with any angle they can dig up to delegitimize the movement.
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Apr 2, 2014 10:51
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The point is that the original impetus for this protest has ballooned. It is too idealistic at this point. Getting the trade pact repealed is an accomplishable goal that has a huge majority supporting it. I am all for Taiwanese exercising their rights blah blah blah. The government here is poo poo and it's nice to see young people taking a stand blah blah blah. But now that time has dragged on, the students have started making demands along the lines of reviewing the entire government apparatus and potentially sacking it. That's a huge difference, it stinks of partisanship, and it takes them way out on a ledge that Ma cannot get near. Here's a transcript from part of the leader 林飛帆's speech on the 30th: quote:[7:50] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8CcDzLEXDc They do have a lot of support, but they are still, two weeks in, an overwhelmingly student movement. Some weekend warriors showing up to protest on a Sunday when they don't have to work does not change that. There is no way a majority government will give in to all of those demands. Also, what's the population of Taiwan, 25 million+? What about Taipei, 3 million? Of course the number who protested Sunday was awesome to see, but it's a drop in the bucket of Taiwan's overall population. I do not think it is fair to call it the voice of Taiwan. Recently, 100,000ish people went to the streets to protest the death of the Army conscript. That's also sizable. What was the result? Not much. All's I'm saying is this should have remained a focused protest if it wants a chance to make a change. The Occupy Movement in the States had no focus and achieved little, if anything. You simply cannot overhaul an entire government with a few thousand students sitting in a government building. The power of an entrenched bureaucracy is too strong. Edit: Formatting Edit 2: Now I'll patiently wait for one of TetsuoTW's typical "you so stupid durr durr" vacuous responses. Pandemonium fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 11:42
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I'm actually with Pandemonium on this one. EDIT: Pandemonium posted:Edit 2: Now I'll patiently wait for one of TetsuoTW's typical "you so stupid durr durr" vacuous responses. Except for this. Moon Slayer fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 11:47
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Barto posted:
This reads like an Onion old-man opinion. Beautiful.
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Apr 2, 2014 11:54
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Pandemonium posted:Edit 2: Now I'll patiently wait for one of TetsuoTW's typical "you so stupid durr durr" vacuous responses.
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Apr 2, 2014 12:18
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While I do think that the goals of the Sunflower Movement are idealistic and probably unobtainable, I don't think they've ballooned that much from where they started. They've refined them and changed the scope, but here are the four goals that they were giving two weeks ago care of hitension's translation. hitension posted:1. Request that Wang Jin-pyng verify that KMT legislator Chang Ching-chung's 3/17 declaration that the trade services pact had passed is null and invalid The government oversight stuff was in there from the very beginning. They've just changed requesting Jiang resign to a full blown constitutional congress. They were never going to get Jiang to resign, so this way they accomplish the same thing (nothing) and condemn the whole government in the process. Their fourth goal seems really nebulous though. Somehow the LY should be separate from party politics? Anyway, it's been over two weeks and Ma still seems unlikely to actually do anything. I have my doubts that even scrapping the agreement will succeed.
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Apr 2, 2014 12:42
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I'll try and get onto an actual response later, but for now I just want to say that criticizing the movement for idealism is a bit weird to me in two ways: 1) Of course they're idealistic. Moderates don't take to the streets. 2) Their demands might be idealistic, but at least the more concrete of them are also achievable (in theory). Getting the legislature to set up an official mechanism for the review of cross-strait agreements and relevant legislation? Sounds like a good idea given the situation. Getting Chang's 30-second passing nullified? Probably wishful thinking, but again, totally doable. Their "constitutional conference" is vaguely defined, which is a problem, as is the restriction of it (at least by name) to constitutional matters only, but there is a kind of precedent in the form of the post-Wild Lily Movement "national affairs conference". The problem with this one, though, isn't the idea, it's the setting: the president personally was basically on the protesters' side then. The others are pretty much just garden-variety "please stop letting special interests interfere with democracy" stuff - that is definitely pie-in-the-sky stuff, admirable as the sentiment might be. It's actually those more hopeful ones like "stand with the people, not special interests" that I'll be interested to watch should any actual dialogue happen. If the Sunflowers are legitimately interested in dialogue, those will be the kind of things that fall by the wayside first; if they won't even budge on those, to me personally that would indicate that they don't actually want negotiation, just capitulation, and that's never going to work. Although even as it stands I'm not convinced either side is willing to compromise in the slightest.
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Apr 2, 2014 13:14
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In any negotiation both sides ask for way more than they realistically expect to attain. That's how it works.
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Apr 2, 2014 14:15
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One of the news channels had another poll tonight about whether the students should continue occupying the LY or not. Not sure who the station pandered to, blue or green, but the poll showed a majority want the kids to leave now. It was like a 50 / 35 with the remainder abstaining. The times they are a-changing. Also, would love to know what the KMTs unreasonable demands are.
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Apr 2, 2014 17:21
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Barto posted:You kinda live in your own fantasy world. Honestly, it's exactly this kind of breathtaking arrogance that make your posts look like auto-fellatio. Barto posted:There isn't a huge number of people who want full union with China. I went to college here, I've worked here for years, I've met at least thousands of people- and only one has ever suggested that position. At the time she said it, the entire room of 20 people was suddenly very uncomfortable- no one loving agrees with this sort of thing. If someone says that openly, even in a city like Taipei, it's a head turning statement that cause giggles more than anger. There are a huge number of people who grudgingly accept that China will probably absorb Taiwan in the future- but there's also a huge number of people who don't want to accept that sort of future, they want the status quo or better. The vast majority of people want independence or the status quo, and even people who are pro-China mostly don't like mainland Chinese people per se (and as the number of mainland Chinese around here has grown, that bias has grown with it. The previous generation might have feared the mainland, but the current generation who works over there or sees them in Taipei generally feels disgust toward them). The mental agility in this is quite impressive. First up, and as always claim authority! Just claim it, you don't need anything resembling substance, superficiality is just fine. Next up, toss in some good-old anecdote, back that up with the ever-classy assumptive dismissal. To round it out we have to fall back on another helping of delusion, then when we're in real danger of approaching substance we double-down with some more projected generalization and casual racism. Bravo!  Barto posted:The big issue during the protest now isn't pro-China vs. anti-China- everyone would like to be anti-China if they thought it was possible. The older generation that grew up in a fascist education system is resigned to being forced into unification, and the younger generation is fighting back against that feeling of resignation. This is a horrible use of rhetoric, you ought to be ashamed. Let's try a horrible excersize in alternate theories. If this was a US bill.... Barto posted:But why should I take your opinion seriously? The protesters are getting places and achieving their goals, proving your previous opinions wrong (as it was obvious even at the time you said them that you were). So, this post is for the others reading the thread who need some real information- because you're just poo poo posting out of contrarian ignorance at this point. Whatever! You're clearly an over-zealous idiot with an inflated ego. You should start/join a religion, your version of intellectual acuity will be welcome. Good luck with that.
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Apr 2, 2014 17:38
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url posted:Honestly, it's exactly this kind of breathtaking arrogance that make your posts look like auto-fellatio. Illiteracy is really a drag, eh?
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Apr 2, 2014 17:57
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I hate it when mom and dad fight 
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Apr 2, 2014 18:02
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Barto posted:Illiteracy is really a drag, eh? Again with the self-aggrandizing ego. 
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Apr 2, 2014 18:22
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url posted:Again with the self-aggrandizing ego. I'm busy now admiring myself in the mirror, shush.
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Apr 2, 2014 18:31
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Moon Slayer posted:I hate it when mom and dad fight It's more like my drunk uncle and some guy who lives upstairs.
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Apr 2, 2014 18:35
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Atlas Hugged posted:It's more like my drunk uncle and some guy who lives upstairs. Ye without sin casteth the firsth sthone.
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Apr 2, 2014 18:41
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url posted:Ye without sin casteth the firsth sthone. He's already slurring.
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Apr 2, 2014 18:47
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I'm kinda itching to hit up Sanxia, I wanna say Friday afternoon or Sunday afternoon. I'm not sure what the Tomb Sweeping thing is doing to my plans though. If you're available we could catch a beer, not a full on session though, since I need to get back too.
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Apr 2, 2014 18:51
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It's OK, guys, 20 minutes in MSPaint and I've solved this whole thing!
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Apr 3, 2014 05:59
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Should've given Orchid Island just directly to the Philippines. At least they wouldn't treat it as a toxic waste dump. In unrelated news: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yovi51Rqd3Q
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Apr 3, 2014 06:56
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Pandemonium posted:TVBS had another poll tonight about whether the students should continue occupying the LY or not. Not sure who the station pandered to, blue or green, but the poll showed a majority want the kids to leave now. It was like a 50 / 35 with the remainder abstaining. Go on, tell us more about what Glenn Wang and Shep Hu told you about how Lin Fei Fang is a secret
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Apr 3, 2014 06:56
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Moon Slayer posted:It's OK, guys, 20 minutes in MSPaint and I've solved this whole thing! That took you 20 minutes?
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Apr 3, 2014 07:04
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Bloodnose posted:That took you 20 minutes? Drawing Taiwan with a mouse might take a while.
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Apr 3, 2014 07:18
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Bloodnose posted:That took you 20 minutes? Spanish Matlock posted:Go on, tell us more about what Glenn Wang and Shep Hu told you about how Lin Fei Fang is a secret Pandemonium posted:One of the news channels had another poll tonight about whether the students should continue occupying the LY or not. Not sure who the station pandered to, blue or green, but the poll showed a majority want the kids to leave now. It was like a 50 / 35 with the remainder abstaining. e: Wait, in Spanish Matlock's quote it says TVBS, in the original post, it doesn't. Well I have no idea what's going on.
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Apr 3, 2014 09:03
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TetsuoTW posted:
Welcome to the Ma-Jiang government, a car will be here shortly to escort you to your new office at the executive yuan (太陽餅 are complementary)
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Apr 3, 2014 09:17
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TetsuoTW posted:e: Wait, in Spanish Matlock's quote it says TVBS, in the original post, it doesn't. Well I have no idea what's going on. Yeah, I was just surfing. Wasn't paying attention to which channel it was. Maybe TVBS, maybe not. Of course it makes a big difference, but I was just throwing it out there because my personal view is that this thing is running out of momentum and that poll supported my particular bias. That TVBS assumption is all Spanish Matlock putting words in people's mouths and cognitive bias at play.
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Apr 3, 2014 09:36
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Pandemonium posted:that poll supported my particular bias More TVBS evidence found.
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Apr 3, 2014 09:41
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