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precision posted:Yeah, and they're not too long and Please stop using "realism" as a reason for a game where an undercover cop is allowed to murder several hundred people.
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Apr 4, 2014 17:00
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like other YouTube game dissectors. Good find.
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Fun fact, video games can portray realism in certain aspects while remaining farcical in others! Weird how that works!
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Apr 4, 2014 18:08
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Kibayasu posted:Please stop using "realism" as a reason for a game where an undercover cop is allowed to murder several hundred people. You don't understand, he's an undercover cop, he plays by different rules, maaaaan. (that line was the loving worst in the entire game)
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Apr 4, 2014 18:12
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CJacobs posted:Fun fact, video games can portray realism in certain aspects while remaining farcical in others! Weird how that works! Technically verisimilitude, not realism. The entire argument is stupid anyway since "it's realistic, because ______" is inevitably the precursor to a very stupid argument about video games. Doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, because that argument is always, always bad. e: I want to be clear I'm directing this at every person who's used the word realism, not singling you out. Sleeping Dogs is an amazing game. Is it perfect in every single way? No. Is it a spectacular breath of fresh air for the genre? Absolutely yes. Can we reconcile these two facts? Easily. Psion fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 18:21
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My point was that the video game does not have to be realistic for it to contain realistic elements. Like yeah this is a game where you kill a million dudes by punching them to death but still. That's something that is completely true so I don't know why it would start an argument. edit: I dunno I guess it is kinda pointless to argue what constitutes 'realism' because it's a video game and not real life (which counts as verisimilitude, you're right), but I feel like there are lots of games out there that at least balance real-world plot elements with video gamey mechanics. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 18:24
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Sleeping Dogs is a hell of a game about a male-lead Chinese crime group. Which is absolutely and totally fine. I think a lot of the time when people are going "It kinda sucks that there's not better female characters in this game", they're aware that it's okay for a game to be about dude stuff, the complaint is a bit more about the fact that so many games are about dude stuff. I mean, folks aren't going "It really sucks you can't be a black guy in this game", because it legitimately wouldn't work, but it still does suck that you can't be a black guy in a lot of games, you know? It's more of a bigger picture complaint.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:31
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Crappy Jack posted:Sleeping Dogs is a hell of a game about a male-lead Chinese crime group. Which is absolutely and totally fine. I think a lot of the time when people are going "It kinda sucks that there's not better female characters in this game", they're aware that it's okay for a game to be about dude stuff, the complaint is a bit more about the fact that so many games are about dude stuff. I mean, folks aren't going "It really sucks you can't be a black guy in this game", because it legitimately wouldn't work, but it still does suck that you can't be a black guy in a lot of games, you know? It's more of a bigger picture complaint. I agree with big-picture complaints, for sure, but the video we're talking about didn't come off as a big-picture complaint, it seemed like he really expected United Front to have high level female Sun On Yee women you could beat up and/or fight alongside on the street in this specific game, not because "games should be more inclusive across the board". I'm certainly the last person who wants nothing but Dude Games.
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Apr 4, 2014 21:02
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I hope I'm not the only one that always yells "It's FOR YOU!" every time they do the phone booth KO and he beats them with the receiver. Crappy Jack posted:Sleeping Dogs is a hell of a game about a male-lead Chinese crime group. Which is absolutely and totally fine. I think a lot of the time when people are going "It kinda sucks that there's not better female characters in this game", they're aware that it's okay for a game to be about dude stuff, the complaint is a bit more about the fact that so many games are about dude stuff. I mean, folks aren't going "It really sucks you can't be a black guy in this game", because it legitimately wouldn't work, but it still does suck that you can't be a black guy in a lot of games, you know? It's more of a bigger picture complaint. Wasn't the original concept for what became Sleeping Dogs supposed to have a female PC, as well?
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Apr 6, 2014 03:22
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Yeah, I remember it was supposed to be originally about a female assassin, though I only really heard about that from here.
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Apr 6, 2014 03:27
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Yea I have never read that anywhere other than here.
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Apr 6, 2014 03:29
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raditts posted:I hope I'm not the only one that always yells "It's FOR YOU!" every time they do the phone booth KO and he beats them with the receiver. Saying stupid one-liners is half the fun in doing execution moves.
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Apr 6, 2014 09:53
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Crappy Jack posted:Sleeping Dogs is a hell of a game about a male-lead Chinese crime group. Which is absolutely and totally fine. I think a lot of the time when people are going "It kinda sucks that there's not better female characters in this game", they're aware that it's okay for a game to be about dude stuff, the complaint is a bit more about the fact that so many games are about dude stuff. I mean, folks aren't going "It really sucks you can't be a black guy in this game", because it legitimately wouldn't work, but it still does suck that you can't be a black guy in a lot of games, you know? It's more of a bigger picture complaint. Let's not forget all those other races that literally never appear in games other than horrid stereotypes. As a South Asian male who has yet to see a single game with a South Asian protagonist (the Prince in PoP is Persian/Turkish, not brown) in any video game ever, while our race makes up fully over a tenth of the world's population, I've basically given up on ever being recognized as anything other than: -A terrorist -A cab driver -A Quickie Mart clerk -A doctor with an accent (we always have accents) -An engineer (rarely) Movies and TV are getting slightly better (Kumar, Tom Haverford, Slumdog Millionaire), but for the most part we are a forgotten race who, unlike Arabs or other people of Middle Eastern descent, there's no white guilt backlash forcing people to try to shoehorn us into things and humanize us. We are also not the only race that has been marginalized like this, but population wise we are the largest, by far. Hell, there are more games where you can play as a Native American than us. (which is 100% white guilt at work) The point: Video games have always been inherently racist, or at least heavily stereotypical, and it's an ongoing travesty that the vast majority of gamers don't even notice or ever comment on. It's a much worse problem than the sexism but gets virtually no press because in the Western world we like to pat ourselves on the back over how egalitarian and not racist we are. Thank you to some people in this thread for noticing it.  Edit: Re: PoP, Farah is the closest thing to a major Indian character in any game that I've seen, and in the remake they turned her into the horse so they could have a white brunette princess. 
Fuzz fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 17:53
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McGuirk posted:Yea I have never read that anywhere other than here. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-08-05-activision-denies-lose-the-chick-report-article Theres also articles where they say "nothing about the game concept changed from Black Lotus to Sleeping dogs" so I dunno.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:01
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I think its fair to critique Sleeping Dogs for not having complex female characters - Errant Signal's point was less "WHERE ARE THE WOMEN" and more "Why aren't the women written better?" But goddamn, I'm a white dude living in Los Angeles and I think its loving awesome to play a game set in Hong Kong. If I spend another second in a virtual New York I'll lose my drat mind.
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Apr 7, 2014 05:13
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Yeah, it kinda makes me want to visit Hong Kong someday. As long as I can guarantee that my head won't be randomly caved in by a rampaging Triad member, of course.
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Apr 7, 2014 05:42
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raditts posted:I hope I'm not the only one that always yells "It's FOR YOU!" every time they do the phone booth KO and he beats them with the receiver. DID THEY ACCEPT THE CHARGES? *bonk* 
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Apr 7, 2014 06:24
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Fuzz posted:Let's not forget all those other races that literally never appear in games other than horrid stereotypes. As a South Asian male who has yet to see a single game with a South Asian protagonist (the Prince in PoP is Persian/Turkish, not brown) in any video game ever May I suggest Crusader Kings (especially with the new Rajah expansion due to your requirement)?
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Apr 7, 2014 07:21
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monster on a stick posted:May I suggest Crusader Kings (especially with the new Rajah expansion due to your requirement)? 4X games don't count, for obvious reasons. An Empire is not a protagonist, nor is your ruler. Even in Crusader Kings.
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Apr 7, 2014 13:31
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Nah, you can totally have your own character story in Crusader Kings.
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Apr 8, 2014 00:35
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Fuzz posted:4X games don't count, for obvious reasons. An Empire is not a protagonist, nor is your ruler. Even in Crusader Kings. CK2 isn't a 4X.
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Apr 8, 2014 00:42
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Everyone should play CK2 for at least a couple hours, as a history lesson in why feudalism is so nutty. I've also been following the development of Unrest, an RPG set in ancient India. It's looking pretty unorthodox in setting and gameplay; I can't wait to get my hands on it.
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Apr 8, 2014 00:59
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raditts posted:Yeah, it kinda makes me want to visit Hong Kong someday. As long as I can guarantee that my head won't be randomly caved in by a rampaging Triad member, of course. Then I recommend avoiding hidden-away karate/kung-fu schools, all hospitals, night clubs with karaoke bars, the docks, tourist spots that are closed for the day, all roads, sidewalks, and highway underpasses. Do all that and you're golden! 
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Apr 8, 2014 01:56
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Crappy Jack posted:Sleeping Dogs is a hell of a game about a male-lead Chinese crime group. Which is absolutely and totally fine. I think a lot of the time when people are going "It kinda sucks that there's not better female characters in this game", they're aware that it's okay for a game to be about dude stuff, the complaint is a bit more about the fact that so many games are about dude stuff. I mean, folks aren't going "It really sucks you can't be a black guy in this game", because it legitimately wouldn't work, but it still does suck that you can't be a black guy in a lot of games, you know? It's more of a bigger picture complaint.
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Apr 8, 2014 02:35
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Timeless Appeal posted:Honestly, my bigger issue with Sleeping Dogs as the dead sister motivation. I'm not a big fan of the dead-female-non-character-who-only-exists-to-drive-our-protagonist trope. Though that's as much of a crime-movie thing as it is a video game thing, to be fair.
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Apr 8, 2014 02:37
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Timeless Appeal posted:Honestly, my bigger issue with Sleeping Dogs as the dead sister motivation. I'm not a big fan of the dead-female-non-character-who-only-exists-to-drive-our-protagonist trope. What if it was a dead brother? I thought it was a fine way to establish that Wei had a reason to hold a grudge against these people.
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Apr 8, 2014 02:45
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The issue, as above, is that it's a general problem. In this instance it totally makes sense as a motivation but it still sucks that there are so many dead sister characters that exist solely as a way to spur the protagonist into action.
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Apr 8, 2014 02:48
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precision posted:What if it was a dead brother? "Get Carter" was a good movie. But yeah, getting revenge for the dead is a time honored tradition in movies - dead wife (Death Wish), dead parents (The Professional), dead athletes (Munich), not to mention all the kidnapped family movies going back to The Searchers and probably before that. You can just say "protagonist is getting revenge because of a murder" and everybody understands when they go overboard.
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Apr 8, 2014 02:54
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My daughter loves this game. She makes me start up Nightmare in Northpoint so she can run around punching zombies and swordfighting demons. She's seven, so she can barely move the camera and walk at the same time, but I love how she can actually win fights because this combat system is so easy to learn.
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Apr 8, 2014 03:11
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precision posted:What if it was a dead brother? 
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Apr 8, 2014 03:56
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Croccers posted:So did Wei's dead brother still suck Dogeye's cock become one of his boys? "First boy eveh suck my caaaauk." Ah, Dogeyes. A poet and a gangster.
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Apr 8, 2014 04:00
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Croccers posted:So did Wei's dead brother still suck Dogeye's cock Yes?
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Apr 8, 2014 04:04
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Croccers posted:So did Wei's dead brother still suck Dogeye's cock become one of his boys? Why not? The only thing that would make me feel anxious about that is that Dogeyes might come off as the kind of depraved evil pervert that gay men are painted as in old movies. But that's hardly insurmountable.
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Apr 8, 2014 04:50
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His fate was better than Smiley Cat's, though.
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Apr 8, 2014 05:28
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Republican Vampire posted:Why not? It would paint him as the kind of "straight" guy who thinks it's funny to humiliate other dudes or joke about it, either way it makes him even more of an rear end in a top hat than the scene as it stands.
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Apr 8, 2014 05:45
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precision posted:What if it was a dead brother?
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Apr 9, 2014 02:42
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Timeless Appeal posted:It wouldn't bother me as much, but the fact that it just seemed to be used as shorthand more than anything else turned me off. But yes, it's bothersome because there is a tendency for women--often without much in terms of characterization and here the sister is otherwise a non-entity--dying for the sake of a man's story. And it's kinda irksome. Didn't she die from overdosing on Drugs and Wei just put the blame on every gangster he knew? Seems less a woman dying for a mans story and more a man finding any reason he can to be angry with what he already is angry about.
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Apr 9, 2014 08:08
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WirelessPillow posted:Didn't she die from overdosing on Drugs and Wei just put the blame on every gangster he knew? That is possible, and definitely a neat, subversive reading of the story and Wei's character. Sleeping Dogs, however, is still a story about a man who found a reason to be angry from the death of his sister. edit: And that reading is also Dogeyes's take on the situation. "I'm soooo sorry your sister Caufman fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 08:13
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Wait, what's the problem with this again? That it's a common trope?
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Apr 9, 2014 15:25
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CJacobs posted:Wait, what's the problem with this again? That it's a common trope? If you're thinking that the problem is "God, writers, try using another motivation for your male characters. The "sister dying" thing is so boring now," it isn't. The problem is the using violence against or death of a woman for plot reasons part, as well as most of the time the woman is just there to be beaten or killed and not act as a character in their own right.
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Apr 9, 2014 15:33
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Oh. I can see what you mean but I guess I don't really know why that's a problem? It's not like I support violence against women in video games or whatever (because video games are not real life and getting your morals from that makes you an idiot) but my thinking was more along the lines that it is shown a lot than the fact that it's happening to a woman. "Your X is dead get revenge!" is like Third Person Video Game Trope Alpha. edit: Wei's sister is treated not as a character but as motivation for Wei and the reason I don't see anything wrong with that is because the game never pretends that she is supposed to be a developed character. She died before the game started and the exposition we get about her comes from Wei because she's not around to give it. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 15:53
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