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duz posted:Don't forget he didn't chose Russia, that's where he was when the US canceled his passport and Russia used that as an excuse to prevent him from leaving. Remember all the news media reporting from the empty seat on the flight he was supposed to be on to... Venezuela I think? Yeah he originally wanted to go to Iceland. Understandable, but obviously they were not gonna deal with the fallout of holding him.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:46
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Grouchy Smurf posted:I really can't understand why people support Snowden. Lets ignore the morality and / or debate regarding leaking secret documents for a moment. Showden leaked the documents from China, and then moved to Russia. Do people honestly believe that he got nothing out of the Chinese and Russian governments in exchange for secret documents? He simply sold important information and leaked some documents to make it look like a bigger thing. There's a very, very short list of countries that can tell the US to go gently caress itself. China and Russia are at the top of that list so no, it's really not surprising since if there's a powerful country that would rather see you free and airing America's dirty laundry, than sitting in a fedmax prison for the next few decades, it's Russia. Just like we'd happily give air time to someone venting all of Putin's dirty deeds. He was trying to get to South America before getting stuck there. Grouchy Smurf posted:The leaking information part is hugely controversial. You can find people debate in favour of either side, with some pretty solid arguments. What I don't get is why Snowden is labelled as a hero. Bradley Manning is a hero. He did what he thought was right, stood up, confessed, and took the consequences like a man. Snowden was apparently fed up with the injustice in his country, leaked/sold documents, run away from justice and moved into a country that is renown for repressing its citizens. Hell, he is probably living in a house with a jacuzzi and sauna right now. There's nothing brave about going to the US and being put through a show trial and given a sentence several times greater than people who ran civilian-murdering trophy hunter squads. If you're fed up with your country's injustice and then willingly submit yourself to said country's justice you're not brave, you're an idiot.
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Apr 4, 2014 22:22
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That's just it. Principled actions needn't be validated by martyrdom or self-immolation. Some of the strongest reaction against Snowden comes from ersatz leftists who are more loyal to the Obama regime than any core principles.
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Apr 4, 2014 22:40
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TheImmigrant posted:That's just it. Principled actions needn't be validated by martyrdom or self-immolation. Just one more comment regarding the Snowden/Manning issue, so we can get back to 9/11 and conspiracy theories in general. Obviously, martyrdom isn't needed in order to be considered a "hero". There is, however, a huge difference between doing a principled action and not suffering any adverse effects (or having a plan in case the risk of these adverse effects is realised) and having a fool-proof escape plan already in action even before you perform said action. Snowden did something that 95% of us would do. This doesn't mean that 95% of the readers in this thread are heroes. Snowden moved to the other half the planet, probably sold some secret information, then made disturbing information pubic and moved to safe country to live the rest of his life. He took a set of actions that arguably improved his life compared to what it was before (assuming he got paid). The only difference between Snowden and us is that he had the opportunity to do so. We are not working for the NSA, we are not having access to sensitive information and we are not getting paid 10 million to disclosure it (again, random number assuming he got paid). If we did, almost all of us would do the same thing as him. Manning isn't a hero because she got caught. She is a hero because she was still working after the leak, trying to provide more information to wikileaks. She leaked the documents knowing that things could likely go bad. Snowden's only risk was if the plane that were to transfer him to his destination, crushed. Edit: VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV It's highly unlikely. He lied to this company, reached a flght destination other than desired one, the documents were published on June 5, and Showden asked for his name to be published on June 9th. He didn't even try to remain in his company and provide more information. The only possibly redeeming factor is if he didn't got paid. However, I high doubt that someone who was having a salary of 200k a year suddenly broke and decided to share what he knew about lies and illegal monitoring. He had been working for the CAI and NSA for years. I am fairly certain that lying and monitoring is the thing you do on the first day on the job. Grouchy Smurf fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 23:15
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Meant to post this last night. From my understanding, Snowden fled so he could continually release information to keep it in the news. That's what he said, apparently. Whether or not that's just a convenient story is up to anybody's guess.
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Apr 4, 2014 23:23
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Grouchy Smurf posted:Just one more comment regarding the Snowden/Manning issue, so we can get back to 9/11 and conspiracy theories in general. Not really. A firefighter who saves a child from a burning building and survives is not materially more respectable than one who dies in the effort. quote:Snowden did something that 95% of us would do. This doesn't mean that 95% of the readers in this thread are heroes. Snowden moved to the other half the planet, probably sold some secret information, then made disturbing information pubic and moved to safe country to live the rest of his life. He took a set of actions that arguably improved his life compared to what it was before (assuming he got paid). Conjecture and assumption, this doesn't merit a rebuttal. There's no evidence Snowden has been paid, and it's pretty silly to state that never being able to return to one's home country is a life improvement.
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Apr 4, 2014 23:28
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Grouchy Smurf posted:Snowden did something that 95% of us would do. This doesn't mean that 95% of the readers in this thread are heroes. Snowden moved to the other half the planet, probably sold some secret information, then made disturbing information pubic and moved to safe country to live the rest of his life. He took a set of actions that arguably improved his life compared to what it was before (assuming he got paid). You're making your entire argument based on an admitted assumption, therefore the entire goddamned thing is invalid. How about Snowden's friends and family? Do you think he was thinking about how running to the loving other side of the world without any ability to ever see or speak to them ever again would be an improvement to his life? He's going to be hunted for the rest of his loving life. He is not going to be able to go to sleep without keeping one eye open, he probably can't even go out in public anymore because if someone recognizes him, he's in danger. His life here in America, is over. He can never see, never speak, never interact with his friends or family, ever again. He knew that if he did this, they'd never stop hunting him, they'd never stop trying to kill him to shut him up. Do you understand what 'Asylum' really means? It doesn't mean you're sitting somewhere living the high life, it means you're in hiding. The more attention you draw to yourself, the more likely you'll end up getting made and ended up shot. Buying things with a lot of money, or living the big life generally means drawing attention to yourself. Snowden is probably living in a hole in the ground, the only 'luxury' he has being a computer with an internet feed. I respect Manning, I think she is a loving hero and she shouldn't be behind bars. However you're being completely illogical by saying that since Edward Snowden didn't sit there and wait for someone to put a bullet in his head, he's less heroic.
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Apr 4, 2014 23:50
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Post 9-11 User posted:"Millions of pieces" happens when the plane explodes in midair, so I guess you're one of Those People that believes missiles were used. I suppose you're one of those people that is so eager to make a rebuttal to something that he puts a lot of effort into disagreeing with people who agree with him.
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Apr 5, 2014 00:47
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E-Tank posted:I just remembered, there was an awesome video called 'screw loose change', that took all the data the latest version of loose change had and proved how they were making poo poo up, editing video, or outright lying about information, even had a digitally done reconstruction of the plane hitting the Pentagon pointing out all of the damage done being consistent with a plane and jet engines, like the clipped generating having a rounded gouge knocked out of it due to the jet engine. I cannot find it for the sake of my life now however. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8
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Apr 6, 2014 17:21
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The Illuminati deploys its agents, all of them under mind control of some variety, to lead their religious believers into the clutches of the Anunnaki agenda. One such man is the most famous evangelist in the world, the American Billy Graham, who is a 33rd degree Freemason and a practicing Satanist. He joined the Freemasons some time around 1948. Graham is a friend of the shape-shifter, pedophile, and serial killer, George Bush, and they famously "prayed" together, according to Bush, the night he ordered the genocide in Iraq in 1991. That same year, Billy Graham said on his US radio show, Embrace America 2000, that the American people should support Bush's New World Order. Through this, they are given cover personalities within a mind fractured into different compartments. The front compartment or "altar", the one that normally interacts with the daily world, may be of a church leader, a top politician, a doctor, and generally people who would never be suspected of being involved with the Illuminati's Satanic ritual network. "Oh, he'd never do that" is the response they are looking for if the truth ever threatens to come out. These programmes can give someone like Billy Graham a word-perfect grasp of Biblical doctrine, while his "back altars" or personalities take part in Satanic sacrifice ritual. This is why we should not view many of these people harshly. They, too, are victims of the other-dimensional entities, which inhabit their bodies and control their minds. David Berkowitz, the serial killer in New York known as the Son of Sam, said he was part of a Satanic group that had orchestrated the murders. In letters to a church minister, he revealed the kind of people involved in ritual human sacrifice: "...Satanists (genuine ones) are peculiar people. They aren't ignorant peasants or semi-literate natives. Rather, their ranks are filled with doctors, lawyers, businessmen, and basically highly responsible citizens...they are not a careless group who are apt to make mistakes. But they are secretive and bonded together by a common need and desire to mete out havoc on society. It was Aleister Crowley who said: 'I want blasphemy, murder, rape, revolution, anything bad'." So there is nothing contradictory about Billy Graham being a Satanist and the world's most famous evangelist. Researcher Alan Walton writes: "These reptilian hybrids often lead a double life involving dual personalities, one which leads a "normal" life in the outer world, and one that is deeply involved with the underground alien society on a nocturnal basis." He says this is especially true of what he calls "cocooned/hosted" individuals and "hybrids/abductees". 
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Apr 6, 2014 21:53
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Apr 6, 2014 21:57
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Kyoon?
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Apr 6, 2014 22:13
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I love when people take these superficial appearance similarities and construct goofy theories. This hippy chick was talking about how pyramids all over the world are the same shape, and why that might be, and I pointed out that a triangular pile is a pretty good way to stack poo poo up real high and I think it blew her mind a little.
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Apr 6, 2014 22:25
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The best part is people who accept that the classic pyramid shape is the best way... and then state this means aliens had to tell them about because how would they know. As if there aren't tons of failed and bent pyramids out there.
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Apr 6, 2014 22:27
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Install Windows posted:The best part is people who accept that the classic pyramid shape is the best way... and then state this means aliens had to tell them about because how would they know. As if there aren't tons of failed and bent pyramids out there. The exceptions that prove the rule, my friend.
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Apr 6, 2014 22:42
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pd187 posted:unsourced quotes and images that should have been thumbnailed Wouldn't it have been much simpler to say that Billy Graham's brand of evangelical Christianity has more in common with LaVeyan Satanism (via Objectivism), than it does with anything Jesus is reported to have said?
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Apr 6, 2014 22:49
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Install Windows posted:The best part is people who accept that the classic pyramid shape is the best way... and then state this means aliens had to tell them about because how would they know. As if there aren't tons of failed and bent pyramids out there. Like maps weren't invented until 1952 or something.
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Apr 6, 2014 22:54
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Miss-Bomarc posted:Or the people who say "these shapes only make sense when seen from above, THAT MEANS ALIENS DID IT" I had a Christian dude post an anatomical sketch of an eyeball and associated nerves and insist "look how complex this is there is no way that it happened randomly someone obviously designed it." It's the same kind of mentality.
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Apr 6, 2014 22:58
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A lot of that comes from people not realizing that because they can't figure out how somethings done, then no one can. There for [insert special pleading here].
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Apr 6, 2014 23:03
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Popular Thug Drink posted:I love when people take these superficial appearance similarities and construct goofy theories. I think it's pretty obvious the pyramids you see all over the world have so much in common that it's obvious they were built the same people, who clearly had a significant degree of technological and mechanical knowledge to be able to move such massive blocks the great distances involved, and then cut them to such exacting shapes as are seen in the ruins scattered about the world. I realise this is a very avant-garde theory, but whereas other scholars have attributed this variously to extraterrestrials or nephelim, I have come to the conlcusion that the builders of these ancient marvels were a sort of sentient ape-like creature with a pathological need to collect useless objects and build places to house them (much as magpies do), who developed an affinity for tool use and carefully refined that skill use over literally millions of years in order to be able to build the gigantic pyramidal superstructures, which they in some cases travelled literally tens of thousands of miles to build, often making these superstructures important features of their colonies. I believe the drawings we find on the walls of these structures indicate that the builders of these pyramids had an intelligence as yet unsurpassed on this earth, posessing very large brains relative to their size. No other contemporary terrestrial creature would have had the brainpower, technology or social organisation to build these structures, so I believe we can rule out any other creature than the one I describe having built these pyramids. I realise this a revolutionary idea with little evidence to support it, but I have tentatively named these creatures homo sapiens.
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Apr 7, 2014 00:04
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Take out the last line and post this on a conspiracy board and within a week they'll all be patting your back in acceptance
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Apr 7, 2014 00:15
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Hedera Helix posted:pd187 posted: Hey, go gently caress yourself buddy. 
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Apr 7, 2014 06:35
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pd187 posted:Hey, go gently caress yourself buddy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDIYxdE-wuQ Momma don't like tattle tales.
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Apr 7, 2014 12:05
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My dad just lent me a book called The Secret Terrorists by Bill Hughes. According to this book, the Jesuits are responsible for every bad thing that's ever happened, including the assassination of Abraham Lincoln and JFK, the sinking of the Titanic, both World Wars, and 9/11. Their goal is to destroy democracy and instate a monarchical government. It was an amazing book that took nearly every conspiracy my dad believes (other than chemtrails and HAARP) and pins them all on the Catholic church, which he hates.
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Apr 7, 2014 15:57
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If we need to have a despot Pope Francis seems like a a pretty good choice.
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Apr 7, 2014 16:13
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SavageBastard posted:I had a Christian dude post an anatomical sketch of an eyeball and associated nerves and insist "look how complex this is there is no way that it happened randomly someone obviously designed it." It's the same kind of mentality. The eyeball is a wonderful example because it proves that if it was designed by God, then He is an idiot.
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Apr 7, 2014 16:35
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Presto posted:The eyeball is a wonderful example because it proves that if it was designed by God, then He is an idiot. Seriously. It takes in an upside-down image our brains have to constantly account for. Also they break down all the time in a million different ways. If the eye is so perfect, why do I have to wear glasses?
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Apr 7, 2014 19:56
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Begemot posted:Seriously. It takes in an upside-down image our brains have to constantly account for. Also they break down all the time in a million different ways. To say nothing of the octopus getting a better "design". And don't get me started on teeth. I'm ok with them needing regular maintenance, but the absolute searing agony of a bad toothache would get them sent back for revision after any serious design review.
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Apr 7, 2014 20:40
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mllaneza posted:To say nothing of the octopus getting a better "design". And don't get me started on teeth. I'm ok with them needing regular maintenance, but the absolute searing agony of a bad toothache would get them sent back for revision after any serious design review. At least the toothache is a design feature than a strict flaw. A toothache in the period before high-sugar diets could be a sign of a life-threatening infection. Most pain is just a message to your brain saying "Stop it" or "do something about this", while the pain of a major toothache is millions of years of evolution saying "THERE'S A loving TIMEBOMB IN YOUR MOUTH GET IT OUT NOW NOW NOW". I suppose this is a bit of a derail, but I wonder if animals who don't have the necessary intelligence and tool use to take their teeth out get toothaches as bad as humans. I'd hypothesise that selection pressure in favour of bad toothache only took off once we developed the capability to remove our teeth.
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Apr 7, 2014 21:57
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Reveilled posted:I suppose this is a bit of a derail, but I wonder if animals who don't have the necessary intelligence and tool use to take their teeth out get toothaches as bad as humans. I'd hypothesise that selection pressure in favour of bad toothache only took off once we developed the capability to remove our teeth. There's no reason why they wouldn't. The pain nerves would be about the same, just in a creature that has a maddening pain in it's mouth that it can't do much about aside from bashing its own head against a rock. Because God loves all the little creatures.
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Apr 7, 2014 22:00
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Popular Thug Drink posted:There's no reason why they wouldn't. The pain nerves would be about the same, just in a creature that has a maddening pain in it's mouth that it can't do much about aside from bashing its own head against a rock. Sensitivity to pain is variable though, some areas cause more pain if they are hurt than others. If an animal cannot do anything to fix problems in its mouth, then experiencing pain there will not make it more likely to survive and produce offspring, and in fact might make it harder to reproduce as creatures prefer not to procreate while in pain. So there would be a selection pressure in favour of animals which feel less pain in their mouths as a result, or at the very least no particular selection pressure one way or another. But since toothaches can indicate lethal probelms, once an animal develops the necessary intelligence to remove its own teeth, that selection pressure turns around in favour of more pain, as if you can make a toothache painful enough that the organism will remove its infected teeth, it is less likely to die from infections and therefore more likely to procreate than creatures which are less sensitive to oral pain. That's all speculation of course, but it seems to make sense to me. I wonder if there's been any research done.
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Apr 7, 2014 22:39
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DarkHamsterlord posted:My dad just lent me a book called The Secret Terrorists by Bill Hughes. Have more https://ia700301.us.archive.org/3/items/TheGodfathers/Godfather.pdf  
Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Apr 7, 2014 |
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Apr 7, 2014 23:03
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The judges who are part of the evil Papist conspiracy are mostly pro-life, while the other three are all pro-choice. You'd think that would be a point in the Church's favour for Jack Chick.
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Apr 7, 2014 23:25
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Aren't the other three also Jewish? I'd think that would rank higher on the Secret World Government hierarchy than Catholics.
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Apr 7, 2014 23:27
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made of bees posted:Aren't the other three also Jewish? I'd think that would rank higher on the Secret World Government hierarchy than Catholics. Depending on Chick's twisted views it could be that he doesn't actually have a problem with Jews because they are God's chosen people or something. Of course, I have no idea what he actually thinks of Jews 
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Apr 7, 2014 23:29
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Gen. Ripper posted:Depending on Chick's twisted views it could be that he doesn't actually have a problem with Jews because they are God's chosen people or something. Jews are going to hell and all the knowledgeable rabbis know that really Jesus was the messiah but are covering it up. https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0014/0014_01.asp
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Apr 7, 2014 23:31
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DarkHamsterlord posted:My dad just lent me a book called The Secret Terrorists by Bill Hughes. Then the book likely produced an affirmation of self belief which is a form of emotional argument rather than reasoned logic. ie you/he believes what is written because it feels good to do so because that resonates with his/your prior beliefs.
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Apr 8, 2014 01:03
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Reveilled posted:I think it's pretty obvious the pyramids you see all over the world have so much in common that it's obvious they were built the same people, who clearly had a significant degree of technological and mechanical knowledge to be able to move such massive blocks the great distances involved, and then cut them to such exacting shapes as are seen in the ruins scattered about the world. Imagine you are living in a primitive society and want to build a tall building. What is the most stable shape for that building? Answer: Pyramid. The thing the different pyramids have in common with each other is their basic geometry. The reason civilisations chose to build pyramid shaped buildings is inherent in their geometry too- stability. Some of them have different slopes but even so it is easy to use geometry to find the optimal trade off between stability and height through experimentation. There is no evidence other than their similar design to indicate one person or civilisation built them all and their similar design can be explained by an alternative and simpler means - all of the different societies wanted a tall building and lacked the ability to build rectangular shaped buildings. So how come you want to avoid using Occam's Razor and invent new evidence to explain their existence when you can do so without it? Anyway as far as the technical achievements go, they had artisans and in modern economies we replace artisans with machines. They also had 100,000+ workforces to rely on and their best people did the carving whereas our best eg play football.
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Apr 8, 2014 01:13
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Reveilled posted:Sensitivity to pain is variable though, some areas cause more pain if they are hurt than others. If an animal cannot do anything to fix problems in its mouth, then experiencing pain there will not make it more likely to survive and produce offspring, and in fact might make it harder to reproduce as creatures prefer not to procreate while in pain. So there would be a selection pressure in favour of animals which feel less pain in their mouths as a result, or at the very least no particular selection pressure one way or another. But since toothaches can indicate lethal probelms, once an animal develops the necessary intelligence to remove its own teeth, that selection pressure turns around in favour of more pain, as if you can make a toothache painful enough that the organism will remove its infected teeth, it is less likely to die from infections and therefore more likely to procreate than creatures which are less sensitive to oral pain. Mmmm... sorry, nope. Oral sensitivity is a result of the need to be very aware of what's in your mouth. Think about how even the teeniest change in your teeth (a chip or missing filling) feels enormous, or a very small piece of grit feels like it's a pebble. We can feel the jaw displacement of a thin piece of foil easily. The selective pressure on oral awareness is much higher than the counter pressure for not feeling a toothache as bad. Plus, there hasn't been enough generations to make such a change. Even people without the means to remove teeth (natives in many non-technological societies) feel toothache pain the way we would. They just wouldn't have it happen as much until huge amounts of sugar became available. Anyway, back to the show...
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Apr 8, 2014 01:35
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Hypation posted:Imagine you are living in a primitive society and want to build a tall building. What is the most stable shape for that building? Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?
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Apr 8, 2014 04:36
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