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Serperoth posted:Wait what? That's not how stuff works. They move to Start Combat, the Demon ability goes on the stack, then the active player gets priority. If the active player passes, the non-active player gets priority. Only if the non-active player passes does the topmost object of the stack (in our case, the Demon sac ability) resolve. Even after the demon's trigger resolves, the active player gets priority again. 116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:05
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MrBling posted:He announced the demon trigger, then went to activate the mutavault and was told he couldn't do that. Yeah, but we have no idea about WHEN he announced it. If he first offered to move to attackers, and Sullivan agreed, we're now in the declare attackers step. Him not having chosen attackers yet does not mean we didn't move to that step already. And only the people at that table could tell us exactly what happened. Brownhat fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 18:06
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^^ The very first thing that happens when the Declare Attackers step begins is that attackers are declared, before anyone gets the chance to activate any abilities etc. jassi007 posted:Even after the demon's trigger resolves, the active player gets priority again. 116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves. Well yeah, I'm just referring to how the non-active player absolutely had the opportunity to activate stuff before choosing whether to sac or not. I thought that was the issue at hand. When both players pass with an empty stack, THEN the step or phase ends, so somebody at the table missed something. Serperoth fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 18:07
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Brownhat posted:Yeah, but we have no idea about WHEN he announced it. If he first offered to move to attackers, and Sullivan agreed, we're now in the declare attackers step. Someone watching said this is what happened. quote:He announced the demon trigger, then went to activate the mutavault and was told he couldn't do that. he didn't decleare any attacker or make an indication of moving steps. he went trigger, activate, and was told no. If the word activate follows the word trigger, there is no point that anyone could confuse or misconstrue having passed priority with an empty stack. he got hosed over by someone.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:11
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None of your quote from "someone watching" tells us what step he was in at the time. Now, I'm not saying that the judge couldn't have messed up, but that's a pretty big screw up.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:15
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I know this is a replay, but holy poo poo the way Adrian Sullivan sets up his whole side of the board is driving me loving crazy. If I ever had to play against him it would absolutely send me on a tilt, which is what I assume he's going for.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:18
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Brownhat posted:None of your quote from "someone watching" tells us what step he was in at the time. Since they acknowledged the Demon trigger, they were at Start Combat. They can't move steps without what's on the stack resolving.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:18
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Serperoth posted:Since they acknowledged the Demon trigger, they were at Start Combat. They can't move steps without what's on the stack resolving. You're assuming that happened during Start Combat. If he offered to move to attackers first, and Adrian agreed, we are no longer in Start Combat.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:20
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Brownhat posted:You're assuming that happened during Start Combat. If he offered to move to attackers first, and Adrian agreed, we are no longer in Start Combat. The Demon trigger happens at Start Combat. It was acknowledged, so no rules were broken, so they were at Start Combat. They can't offer to move to attackers, that's an illegal action.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:22
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Serperoth posted:The Demon trigger happens at Start Combat. It was acknowledged, so no rules were broken, so they were at Start Combat. They can't offer to move to attackers, that's an illegal action. It's a triggered ability. It can be missed. Triggers don't just "happen" if it's controller misses it. We don't rewind for missed triggers.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:24
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GonSmithe posted:I know this is a replay, but holy poo poo the way Adrian Sullivan sets up his whole side of the board is driving me loving crazy. If I ever had to play against him it would absolutely send me on a tilt, which is what I assume he's going for. clamiam45 posted:If you had told me a year ago that this thread would be hating on Mono Black Control in standard next year, I wouldn't have believed it.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:26
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Brownhat posted:It's a triggered ability. It can be missed. Triggers don't just "happen" if it's controller misses it. We don't rewind for missed triggers. The post you quoted says it was acknowledged, so how is the fact that triggers can be missed relevant to the discussion?
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Apr 6, 2014 18:27
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JerryLee posted:The post you quoted says it was acknowledged, so how is the fact that triggers can be missed relevant to the discussion? Because the poster has NO IDEA WHEN the trigger was pointed out. The coverage staff didn't even bother to ask that.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:29
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Fox of Stone posted:Oh no someone else's brain works differently from mine. Do you freak out when someone starts playing FPSs using legacy controls too?
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Apr 6, 2014 18:30
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Brownhat posted:Because the poster has NO IDEA WHEN the trigger was pointed out. The coverage staff didn't even bother to ask that. It was acknowledged, which means it wasn't missed, and that means that they were still at Start Combat. They can't move into Declare Attackers without the trigger resolving. As you said as well, there's no rewinding for missed triggers, but from what I'm reading it wasn't a missed trigger.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:33
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Brownhat posted:It's a triggered ability. It can be missed. Triggers don't just "happen" if it's controller misses it. We don't rewind for missed triggers. They can be missed, but obviously if this trigger was acknowledged then it wasn't missed. Or to say more specifically even if it was missed, a judge then rewound the game state to add it to the stack. If he did rewind, then we were obviously before declare attackers and he could activate the mutavault. When a judge fixes a missed trigger it requires rewinding the game state, which means you can activate the mutavault. There is no scenario where the trigger for the demon was on the stack that the active player can't then activate his mutavault because this specific trigger can only happen before declare attackers. We either were there, or it was rewound to there. It makes no difference. If a judge rewinds the game state to fix a missed trigger, then both players can make different choices based on that trigger. Thats why you rewind and not just throw it in wherever you happen to be in the game, because players will make different choices based on what happened in the game. I guess the point could be made he moved to attackers, then acknowledged the trigger, and a judge ruled the trigger was missed, so he couldn't activate his mutavault. If that is the case it should be easy to see on replay. jassi007 fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 18:36
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Serperoth posted:It was acknowledged, which means it wasn't missed, and that means that they were still at Start Combat. They can't move into Declare Attackers without the trigger resolving. Where exactly are you reading this? There are two possible scenarios here: 1.) He acknowledged the trigger at the right time, and the coverage judge made one of the absolute worst rulings in the history of bad rulings. Keep in mind, they don't just put random judges on coverage team. Usually they are L2+, and someone who has proven themselves. Then, after this ridiculously wrong ruling, no one bothered to appeal. I know no one bothered to appeal, because I know the head judge at this Standard Open, and there is no way he would uphold a ruling that wrong. or 2.) Kevin missed his trigger, and tried to move to attackers, to which Adrian agreed. As soon as both players passed priority, the trigger was missed and we're now in Declare Attackers. At this point, it's too late to activate Mutavault as an attacker. I'm not saying it couldn't be option 1, but that's significantly less likely.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:42
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jassi007 posted:They can be missed, but obviously if this trigger was acknowledged then it wasn't missed. Or to say more specifically even if it was missed, a judge then rewound the game state to add it to the stack. If he did rewind, then we were obviously before declare attackers and he could activate the mutavault. When a judge fixes a missed trigger it requires rewinding the game state, which means you can activate the mutavault. There is no scenario where the trigger for the demon was on the stack that the active player can't then activate his mutavault because this specific trigger can only happen before declare attackers. We either were there, or it was rewound to there. It makes no difference. If a judge rewinds the game state to fix a missed trigger, then both players can make different choices based on that trigger. Thats why you rewind and not just throw it in wherever you happen to be in the game, because players will make different choices based on what happened in the game. You absolutely DO NOT rewind for a missed trigger. When a missed trigger is found, a few things can happen: First, you check if it's a trigger with a default choice (Kataki, War's Wage and Pact of Negation), or is a delayed trigger involving a zone change (Obzedat, Ghost Council). If it's has a default choice, you resolve it with that choice (For a Pact, you would lose the game). If it's a delayed trigger zone change, you resolve it. In both cases, the opponent chooses if it resolves now or at the beginning of the next phase. If the triggered ability would create an effect whose duration has already expired, you do nothing. Otherwise, the opponent gets to choose if the ability is put on the stack. At no point would you ever rewind for a missed trigger. Brownhat fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 18:42
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It's still dumb as all hell that the head judge doesn't have a text file containing the comp rules on a netbook or a tablet that they can carry around with them to double check rulings if requested. A few weeks ago during a feature match someone cast a Gods Willing on their creature that was on the receiving end of a Fall of the Hammer. The head judge ruled that if the player declares red but the other creature isn't red (in this case white) then the creature that now has pro red would still be dealt damage. His ruling was final. It's a wrong ruling that wouldn't have happened if the head judge just opened a pdf, ctrl+f'd "illegal target", and found this section: quote:608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that’s no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. However, if any of its targets are illegal, the part of the spell or ability’s effect for which it is an illegal target can’t perform any actions on that target, make another object or player perform any actions on that target, or make that target perform any actions. If the spell or ability creates a continuous effect that affects game rules (see rule 613.10), that effect doesn’t apply to illegal targets. The effect may still determine information about illegal targets, though, and other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them. In this case "Dealing damage" would be an action that it can't force the white creature to take. Or maybe they could, I don't know, look up the card in gatherer and look at the rulings: quote:1/1/2014: As Fall of the Hammer tries to resolve, if only one of the targets is legal, Fall of the Hammer will still resolve but will have no effect: If the first target creature is illegal, it can’t deal damage to anything. If the second target creature is illegal, it can’t be dealt damage. It's silly to force the judges to have encyclopedic knowledge about what every card does when the comp rules and gatherer rulings are easily accessible. Judges are needed to decipher the game state and decide how the rules apply to this situation, but they shouldn't be there to remember exactly how the rules work.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:43
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Brownhat posted:You absolutely DO NOT rewind for a missed trigger. Even for a trigger like demon, where it affects the opponent in such an obvious way? I'm having trouble finding the relevant wording in the comp rules, but I'm fairly sure the opponent could basically get the judge to rewind because he intended to sac something right? Like I'm the black player, and I want to "sneak" in my demon on attacks, so I got combat, demon attacks. My opponent can call judge, say "he missed the demon trigger, and I want to respond to it." the judge would not disallow my opponent the opportunity to respond, and he'd give me a game warning to for that matter. However when the judge rewound to allow my opponent to respond to the trigger, I'd then get to activate my mutavault.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:47
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Brownhat posted:Where exactly are you reading this? The judge wasn't actually involved in any of this. Adrian Sullivan just told him that he couldn't do it.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:50
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MrBling posted:The judge wasn't actually involved in any of this. Adrian Sullivan just told him that he couldn't do it. I'm pretty sure the judge was involved, if I'm remembering right. I thought I saw them get involved. jassi007 posted:Even for a trigger like demon, where it affects the opponent in such an obvious way? I'm having trouble finding the relevant wording in the comp rules, but I'm fairly sure the opponent could basically get the judge to rewind because he intended to sac something right? Like I'm the black player, and I want to "sneak" in my demon on attacks, so I got combat, demon attacks. My opponent can call judge, say "he missed the demon trigger, and I want to respond to it." the judge would not disallow my opponent the opportunity to respond, and he'd give me a game warning to for that matter. However when the judge rewound to allow my opponent to respond to the trigger, I'd then get to activate my mutavault. I edited my post to better explain what the IPG says about the fix for GPE - Missed Trigger. The IPG only allows you to rewind for GPE - Game Rules Violation. (EDIT: TE - Communication Policy Violation also allows us to rewind if necessary.) Kabanaw posted:It's still dumb as all hell that the head judge doesn't have a text file containing the comp rules on a netbook or a tablet that they can carry around with them to double check rulings if requested. A few weeks ago during a feature match someone cast a Gods Willing on their creature that was on the receiving end of a Fall of the Hammer. The head judge ruled that if the player declares red but the other creature isn't red (in this case white) then the creature that now has pro red would still be dealt damage. His ruling was final. It's a wrong ruling that wouldn't have happened if the head judge just opened a pdf, ctrl+f'd "illegal target", and found this section: Any judge with a smartphone has the app with all of the rules documents and oracle. If they don't, they either don't have a device or they were too lazy to download the app. Also, the head judge wouldn't be involved in that ruling unless there was an appeal. Brownhat fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 18:56
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Brownhat posted:And judge with a smartphone has the app with all of the rules documents and oracle. If they don't, they either don't have a device or they were too lazy to download the app. Also, the head judge wouldn't be involved in that ruling unless there was an appeal. They did appeal. This was the head judge's ruling. At least 1 person at the event needs some way to consult the actual rules to make sure rulings aren't made off just what they remember.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:58
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Kabanaw posted:They did appeal. This was the head judge's ruling. At least 1 person at the event needs some way to consult the actual rules to make sure rulings aren't made off just what they remember. Like I said, almost every judge at an event should have access to Oracle and all of the rules documents. You can get the app, too. If you have an Android device: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ndrue.gathereroffline iDevices: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/mtg-guide/id378754271?mt=8 EDIT: Good, we might get to watch that Desecration Demon situation during this replay. Brownhat fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 19:02
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Are JiN spoilers beginning tomorrow, or next Monday?
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Apr 6, 2014 19:21
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Tomorrow.
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Apr 6, 2014 19:23
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C-Euro posted:Are JiN spoilers beginning tomorrow, or next Monday? Tonight, 9pm pacific!
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Apr 6, 2014 19:23
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En Fuego posted:Tonight, 9pm pacific! I think this is the first time PAX East happened in the middle of spoiler season. I wonder what they'll be showing us at the Magic panel.
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Apr 6, 2014 19:24
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Brownhat posted:I think this is the first time PAX East happened in the middle of spoiler season. I wonder what they'll be showing us at the Magic panel. Probably some Conspiracy stuff.
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Apr 6, 2014 19:31
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They should be revealing the fall 2014 set as well.
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Apr 6, 2014 19:32
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Sleep of Bronze posted:Tomorrow. Sweet, something to look forward to.
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Apr 6, 2014 19:38
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Magic: The Gathering: The Megathread: Trigger Warnings
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Apr 6, 2014 19:43
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C-Euro posted:Are JiN spoilers beginning tomorrow, or next Monday?
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Apr 6, 2014 19:50
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rabidsquid posted:Magic: The Gathering: The Megathread: Trigger Warnings Magic: The Gathering: The Megathread: Demons make Rewind standard legal.
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Apr 6, 2014 19:53
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Count Bleck posted:Magic: The Gathering: The Megathread: Demons make Rewind standard legal. Magic: The Gathering: The Megathread: The difference between L1 and L2 is the ability to rewind.
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Apr 6, 2014 19:59
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I'm surprised they don't make more "at beginning of combat" triggers with how much they're pushing interacting with the red zone for the last few sets. From reading MaRo's thoughts it seems like they wish they could make those types of cards more often but players(mostly new players) find them annoying to keep track. Over the kitchen table that scenario would get rewind. Takes away from a lot of design space.
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Apr 6, 2014 19:59
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Korak posted:I'm surprised they don't make more "at beginning of combat" triggers with how much they're pushing interacting with the red zone for the last few sets. From reading MaRo's thoughts it seems like they wish they could make those types of cards more often but players(mostly new players) find them annoying to keep track. Over the kitchen table that scenario would get rewind. Takes away from a lot of design space. Wizards / Maro doesn't design cards for the technical player really. The health of the game is more reliant on the kitchen table. Just look at the view on counterspells, land destruction, and New World Order. I think at events using comp rel these things are all fine, but move down to kitchen table /FNM and they are despised by the majority. I think they design cards for this group,then development tunes some stuff up basically.
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Apr 6, 2014 20:02
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Was that just a turn 2 Elves kill?
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Apr 6, 2014 20:10
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"4-Color Thopter" Early rounds of legacy - best rounds of legacy. EDIT: Elves player fetches up a worldspine wurm, it's a 1/1 do-nothing because of Thopter's humility. The players high-five.
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Apr 6, 2014 20:11
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That is the most amazing 1/1 11 mana Worldspine Wurm I've ever seen.
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Apr 6, 2014 20:12
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