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Exactly, and it seems that for overweight people, being overweight is their defining feature. It's the thing that ads and the media target, people make fun of them for it, and they get constantly told they need to change. But no one mentions the positives: That personality and what makes them unique is far more important than anything regarding their appearance. These Girl Games could send a positive message to girls, say be who you want to be no matter your appearance, but instead they resort to body shaming and saying "you're fat, have more food, fatty" which is unfortunate. Anyway, off that topic. Many young girls are playing games on Facebook these days, and there are quite a few games I think would be good to look at in this thread: Disney City Girl being one. If DeVac doesn't mind I could make a post covering this game, and others like it on facebook
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Apr 6, 2014 21:46
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Go for it!
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Apr 6, 2014 22:01
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Killrrhubarb posted:Exactly, and it seems that for overweight people, being overweight is their defining feature. It's the thing that ads and the media target, people make fun of them for it, and they get constantly told they need to change. But no one mentions the positives: That personality and what makes them unique is far more important than anything regarding their appearance. These Girl Games could send a positive message to girls, say be who you want to be no matter your appearance, but instead they resort to body shaming and saying "you're fat, have more food, fatty" which is unfortunate. Equally depressing is that skin color, disabilities, or medical conditions are often viewed the same way. I hear things like, "that asian girl with the crutches," and it makes me sad. Is Disney City Girl that highly polished item search game with a daily action limit? If it is, I saw somebody playing it and it was terrible. If not, I would suggest maybe checking that one out as well.
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Apr 6, 2014 22:13
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Devious Vacuum posted:Some of them start with a default outfit that is just the first selection of every list. I agree, but I feel that your statement also seems to contain two problems with many cultures. One, that sexuality is wrong and shameful. Two, that nudity is always sexual and/or wrong. Having a healthy sexual relationship (when you're an adult) is perfectly fine, and yet so many people are either reluctant to "admit" to it or afraid to face it. Nudity is natural, but if a mother or father quickly covered herself or himself up, it would signal to the child that it is something naughty and you can never be naked. Of course, I'm probably just assuming. Also, I spent money taking a course in college, and I'm going to apply the knowledge in the real world. Me taking an Intro to Human Sexuality class aside, I really meant: why do they start in their underwear, wouldn't they decide what to where before they took their old clothes off? haplesscardsharp fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 22:35
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haplesscardsharp posted:I really meant: why do they start in their underwear, wouldn't they decide what to where before they took their old clothes off? I can answer this (that is, I can give you an explanation, not necessarily their explanation) When you are getting dressed, planning your outfit ahead of time is some high level stuff. It's easier and tends to be more effective to start one piece at a time, and build around it. Just laying out an entire outfit, then putting it on is an exercise in finding out you have lost 5 pounds so now those pants fit kinda funny.
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Apr 6, 2014 22:52
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So let's say that, spurred on by the sacrifices that the Devious Vacuum has made, us goons decided to make the perfect dress-up game for girls. Being goons, who don't have anything better to do, any constraints of time or workmanship would be cast aside. Although I have next to no knowledge of feminist theory, I'm getting the general impression that this ideal dress-up game would be as inclusive as possible. To that end, I'd think that a starting point might be making a suite of customization options tooled towards the avatar's base body, including not only the standard skin color, but height, body fat, overall width, proportions, etc.. Am I more or less on the right track here?
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Apr 6, 2014 22:57
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Being inclusive and non-discriminatory is cool but at the same time being way too defensive about certain issues sucks and doesn't help the discussion.Killrrhubarb posted:Exactly, and it seems that for overweight people, being overweight is their defining feature. It's the thing that ads and the media target, people make fun of them for it, and they get constantly told they need to change. But no one mentions the positives: That personality and what makes them unique is far more important than anything regarding their appearance. Having a good personality and the importance of being yourself have nothing to do with the positives of being fat. Honestly I'm not even sure what the positives of being fat would be, if you think of any I'd like to hear them. chocolatekake posted:Equally depressing is that skin color, disabilities, or medical conditions are often viewed the same way. I hear things like, "that asian girl with the crutches," and it makes me sad. This is normal and tiptoeing around sentences to avoid any sort of controversy is stupid. This is something that's very pronounced in british/us/commonwealth cultures and it bugs me because everybody ends up hiding behind a façade of PC terms. I think it's possible to describe somebody's appearance with the help of their distinctive features without sounding like a prick or a tumblr user. I hope this doesn't sound aggressive, it just came to mind while reading your posts.
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Apr 6, 2014 23:00
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necroid posted:Having a good personality and the importance of being yourself have nothing to do with the positives of being fat. Honestly I'm not even sure what the positives of being fat would be, if you think of any I'd like to hear them. Ability to survive much longer without food is one that leaps immediately to mind - you know, the actual purpose of fat in the human body. And let's not forget that centuries ago, larger women were considered more attractive the same way that thinner women are in today's culture - look up the term "Rubenesque" if you want to know more. I'm sure it wasn't universal, just like today's prevailing standards aren't, but as the thread has been demonstrating, a lot of what we think about women and people in general is just artificial trends created by people who somehow have influence, and all it takes is enough people who fit whatever model they're trying to push agreeing that they like being looked up to and revered, and they can successfully look down on everyone who doesn't fit. It takes everyone to collectively say "We disagree" and focus on something meaningful, and unfortunately, there are too many people out there with shallow personalities, trendy appearances, and deep pockets to make that work.
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Apr 6, 2014 23:21
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necroid posted:This is normal and tiptoeing around sentences to avoid any sort of controversy is stupid. This is something that's very pronounced in british/us/commonwealth cultures and it bugs me because everybody ends up hiding behind a façade of PC terms. I think it's possible to describe somebody's appearance with the help of their distinctive features without sounding like a prick or a tumblr user. There's a difference between identifying somebody solely by their traditionally socially undesirable qualities and acknowledging those physical traits. When I describe somebody I don't think it's pertinent to describe those things unless I have an actual need for it. If it's somebody I don't know, they could be self-conscious about it or not care, but I'd rather be nice when not necessary than risk being rude. And yes I realize that whoever it is isn't going to hear what I say about them unless I say it to their face, but I think it's still respectful. It's only a façade if you don't believe what you're saying. Also, words like "fat", as we have seen in the videos, are very subjective. Those "plus-sized" models weren't very plus-sized in my mind. Nor, as it would seem, Devac's or AsteriskAsterisk's. People know what brown hair is. People don't agree on what "fat" is. That alone reduces its objective usefulness as a descriptor. tinkerttoy posted:So let's say that, spurred on by the sacrifices that the Devious Vacuum has made, us goons decided to make the perfect dress-up game for girls. Being goons, who don't have anything better to do, any constraints of time or workmanship would be cast aside. I think that's definitely a good start. People have been saying that character customization in some games like Skyrim are great dress-up games. And I'd imagine the sort of customization you've got in mind is a good reason for that.
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Apr 7, 2014 00:02
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chocolatekake posted:Is Disney City Girl that highly polished item search game with a daily action limit? If it is, I saw somebody playing it and it was terrible. If not, I would suggest maybe checking that one out as well. It's not an item search game. (Well, it kinda is, but it's more than that), it has a daily action limit as well, and it is terrible. You're probably thinking of Disney's Hidden Worlds. What happened was that Disney hired Playdom to develop facebook games for their brands. Playdom are already known for making games with action limits, rare resources, basically things that are going to make people spend money. So the majority of the games that Playdom made under the Disney IP are exactly that. There are a couple of good ones (The Marvel game and the Pirates of the Carribean game in particular) but the rest are really bad.
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Apr 7, 2014 00:46
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tinkerttoy posted:So let's say that, spurred on by the sacrifices that the Devious Vacuum has made, us goons decided to make the perfect dress-up game for girls. The best dress-up game is Saint's Row 2-4.
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Apr 7, 2014 01:23
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Devious Vacuum posted:The best dress-up game is Saint's Row 2-4. Saints Row 2 was the best. Saints Row the Third apparently cut out a lot of the customization and from what I've heard SR IV is pretty much the same, just with a lot of the bonus outfits thrown into the main game.
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Apr 7, 2014 01:49
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Yeah, but Saints Row 3 and 4 also have the best vehicle customization this side of Pimp My Beautiful Car.
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Apr 7, 2014 02:42
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YourAverageJoe posted:Yeah, but Saints Row 3 and 4 also have the best vehicle customization this side of Pimp My Beautiful Car. Please don't tell me you used a vehicle in Saints Row 4 long enough to pimp the poo poo out of it.
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Apr 7, 2014 03:21
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The vehicle out-pimping tutorial comes ahead of the superpowers, so yeah. Once.
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Apr 7, 2014 04:26
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haplesscardsharp posted:Please don't tell me you used a vehicle in Saints Row 4 long enough to pimp the poo poo out of it. Pimpin' cars is its own reward! I never used a vehicle in SR4 once I got the superpowers (aside from the missions that required it obviously) and my garage was crammed full of sweet rides (like pink Emus with golden kneecappers)
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Apr 7, 2014 09:57
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City of Heroes was the best dress-up game. The Souls series of games are pretty good fantasy dress-up games.
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Apr 7, 2014 12:22
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Angrymog posted:City of Heroes was the best dress-up game. Seconding the souls series, at least Dark Souls, for the gender neutrality of outfits, especially armor. Very few outfits are different for males and females. Off the top of my head I can only think of two, and in the second it's literally just a different and arguably more fashionable headpiece. Demon's Souls however had gender-specific outfits, though I am fairly certain they weren't sexualized at all either and were just based off different NPCs. I've yet to play Dark Souls II but I highly doubt it's changed since Dark. In Lordran your gender doesn't matter in the face of impending death.
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Apr 7, 2014 14:53
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Angrymog posted:City of Heroes was the best dress-up game. Champions Online is even better. Edit: VVVV Personally I mostly just meant it is an incredibly robust costume editor. I want to say most of the clothing is available for both gender options in the game but it has been awhile since I played. Lots of sexualized stuff there though, although you can usually edit the colors to not be bare skin or layer it to fix that. You can also be animals or robot skeletons and poo poo. Light Gun Man fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Apr 7, 2014 |
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Apr 7, 2014 16:33
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Are we still talking about gender-egalitarian costuming or just what y'all personally enjoyed playing?
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Apr 7, 2014 16:49
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Devious Vacuum posted:Are we still talking about gender-egalitarian costuming or just what y'all personally enjoyed playing? ... Wait, no!  Seriously though, have there been any games where you can pick or make really plus-sized characters? I know Saints Row 2 allows you to veer away from the industry standard shape. Anything else?
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Apr 7, 2014 17:00
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SelenicMartian posted:As if there is any difference... The Dark Soul games let you be fat and I've been playing The Old Republic recently because I am a gross nerd and the body types are slender, normal (muscular with great build), muscular (loving ripped), and fat (boulder human hybrid). It's a rarer body type option in games but it's not unheard of.
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Apr 7, 2014 17:31
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ThatPazuzu posted:The Dark Soul games let you be fat and I've been playing The Old Republic recently because I am a gross nerd and the body types are slender, normal (muscular with great build), muscular (loving ripped), and fat (boulder human hybrid). It's a rarer body type option in games but it's not unheard of.
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Apr 7, 2014 18:04
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Devious Vacuum posted:Are we still talking about gender-egalitarian costuming or just what y'all personally enjoyed playing? Dark Souls 2 is just as open as Saints Row 3/4 when it comes to sex. Except it doesn't have a big flashy logo like "Image as Designed" telling you where and what can be accomplished. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQRXihlewzs
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Apr 7, 2014 18:14
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 We're finally done with this. Aside from a few games I couldn't find/run, and excluding the ports, this is the last in this series of games. And wouldn't you know it, it's a Mario Party clone. Because those go so well. But seriously, gently caress this series. Let's Play the Mary-Kate and Ashley Series Finale: Rolling Start (with DevilEd, ItsGoggalor, ZenScissors, Compufreak, and Kai.)
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Apr 7, 2014 21:04
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Light Gun Man posted:Champions Online is even better. Then it must have changed by MILES since I played, because I could consistently NEVER even just recreate a character from CoX in Champions. The options were abysmal and not suited for mix and match without extreme effort. Did they ever fix it so that there wasn't a loving CLEAVAGE OVERLAY? Because if you give someone minimum tits, they still visibly had huge knockers from the front like an eye maze. Yeah, you could be flat as you liked, but god knows you have to have cleavage. Even in a shirt that fully covers your entire chest.
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Apr 7, 2014 22:52
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SelenicMartian posted:Seriously though, have there been any games where you can pick or make really plus-sized characters? I know Saints Row 2 allows you to veer away from the industry standard shape. Anything else? I seem to recall GTA San Andreas letting you have your (male) character gain fat, tone, and muscle based on how much/what you ate, how much you ran, etc. Not that GTA is exactly a good example of progressive anything.
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Apr 7, 2014 23:16
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heenato posted:For the males or also for female characters? Because what I remember from TOR was that the largest female body type was just a normal human body weight, while the others were insanely small. Things like that are just as bad. It just says "It's okay for a GUY to be overweight, but not a woman! NOPE!" I haven't made a female character and just assumed. You could be, and probably are, right now that I think about it. 
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Apr 7, 2014 23:18
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It isn't like TOR did that good a job with fat guys anyway, they just look like they're overweight and muscular with how inflated their chest comes off as. But at least dudes have even the option of looking like not perfectly swole weight lifters.
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Apr 7, 2014 23:43
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ThatPazuzu posted:I haven't made a female character and just assumed. You could be, and probably are, right now that I think about it.
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Apr 8, 2014 00:08
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SelenicMartian posted:Seriously though, have there been any games where you can pick or make really plus-sized characters? I know Saints Row 2 allows you to veer away from the industry standard shape. Anything else? And skinny by eating celery and buff by spending physical experience
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Apr 8, 2014 01:24
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heenato posted:Yeah. I looked up a comparison, and they are nothing alike, sadly. Men get to be the hulk while ladies get to be a normal body weight. To be fair, anyone (male, female, or zebra) looks ugly as gently caress when they're that muscled up. Edited because I somehow cannot use the right spelling of "to" haplesscardsharp fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 01:56
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haplesscardsharp posted:Too be fair, anyone (male, female, or zebra) looks ugly as gently caress when they're that muscled up. *ahem* 
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Apr 8, 2014 02:47
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Midnight Voyager posted:Then it must have changed by MILES since I played, because I could consistently NEVER even just recreate a character from CoX in Champions. The options were abysmal and not suited for mix and match without extreme effort. Did they ever fix it so that there wasn't a loving CLEAVAGE OVERLAY? Because if you give someone minimum tits, they still visibly had huge knockers from the front like an eye maze. Couldn't tell you anything that specific since it's been probably a solid year since I played. I can however tell you that if you had just started the game up for the first time (or maybe just a new character?) you do not have access to full customization options until after you complete the tutorial / reach level 6, I believe. It's dumb, but that's something they changed awhile back. Edit: Thinking about it some more, Champions body slider defaults are pretty awful on the women. You start of at maximum breast size by default (I guess it's good that it can't go any higher?) and with a pretty tiny torso. You can definitely change it around a lot though, including height which a lot of games do not bother with as an option. also here have some old screenshots I took of some TMNT characters I made in the game: several Karai costumes, as I actually played this character: http://puu.sh/57Uy http://i.imgur.com/hClyx.jpg http://i.imgur.com/HSbsG.jpg Fugitoid and Savanti Romero http://i.imgur.com/Rj95p.jpg Cartoons style Rat King http://puu.sh/59xD Light Gun Man fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 03:04
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So, uh... does anyone else go back to the BEAUTIFUL CAR! music on occasion?
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Apr 8, 2014 03:04
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Man, I was hoping that other people were gonna start talking about City Of Heroes in this thread, because it means i can finally talk about this. I happen to think that my beloved City Of Heroes/Villains (heretofore known as CoX) might be one of the most gender progressive games ever made, and it's all because of lovely Early 2000s Code. Giant Hulk-Sized characters are a staple of comic books. So if CoX was going to let you make your own superhero, you were going to need to have a character who defaults as "already loving huge". Then they were like "well that Hulk guy can't have our default voice clips. Not to mention the difference between a normal person landing a 20 foot Super Jump and The Hulk. How do we make that character do all of these different things compared to the standard male and female character model?" They made a third gender, and called it "Huge"  Now, I know what you might be thinking. Yes, it's clearly just a variant on the Male model, with a deep and guttural set of voice clips. But there's also the fact that since like...update 4, there's been this available as a wall texture  We don't get this progressive in REAL Life. Maybe if you count "family" bathrooms. But when you consider the fact that CoX is also the game that lets you make something like this  I'd say that it qualifies as being Pretty Progressive. Granted, it still doesn't let you put Actual Dresses on the male model, or let the Female Model chomp on a cigar. But half of the fun of playing a nearly 10 year old game, was working around those issues, and figuring out how to make your Hulk burst out of HisHer dress while still being Glamorous. The other half was punching a fire spewing Biker Dude so hard he rag dolls off the roof and lands in a tree.
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Apr 8, 2014 04:27
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Kojiro posted:So, uh... does anyone else go back to the BEAUTIFUL CAR! music on occasion? Just me. WeX Majors posted:I'd say that it qualifies as being Pretty Progressive. Granted, it still doesn't let you put Actual Dresses on the male model, or let the Female Model chomp on a cigar. But half of the fun of playing a nearly 10 year old game, was working around those issues, and figuring out how to make your Hulk burst out of HisHer dress while still being Glamorous. This is pretty great. I mean, it's not solving all problems or anything, but it makes me happy. Devious Vacuum fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 05:11
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I feel like it's my civic duty to share this with all of my fellow girl gamers. We've been drudging our way through the shittiest of dress up games. I think we've forgotten just what you can do with a Good Dress Up Game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TP4L1vHfpk The part I think this thread will really enjoy comes at about 2:15. Granted that the game seems to be weird towards genders (no female giants, because reasons) but it looks to be a 3D Modeling Program, shoved into a character creator.
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Apr 8, 2014 05:50
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It still doesn't even have the range of body types of Saint's Row 2! Also this might just be the person making the video, but I hardly see any diversity in women's faces besides coloration. To summarize all my criticisms, I don't think I could recreate Laverne Cox in that character creator. I WANT TO PLAY SKYRIM AS LAVERNE COX, OKAY. IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK.
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Apr 8, 2014 06:12
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This issue is close to me and I’ve had some difficulty gathering my thoughts on this matter alone, but if you’ll allow me to talk about what I’ve had some help to realize, I’d appreciate it, thread. The unfortunate thing about Size Acceptance is that, much like the greater problem of dress-up or other atypical GIRL GAMES, whatever positive intentions they may attempt to carry out are still being sabotaged by elements of society at large trying to keep people thinking in terms of whether or not they are attractive to others. That people should be concerned about what current, or even historic attraction trends are at play because they are clearly what judge the value of a human being. To use the recent thread update as an example, even though most of these depictions of young women have become whatever society determines is fat for a girl, “At least they can still be pretty to someone by dressing themselves up right”. This sort of harmful reasoning is bullshit no matter the context. Attraction shouldn't be a signifier of self-acceptance or show of worth from the outside. Conversely, telling someone a variation of “don’t worry, I think you’re pretty because you’re big” or whatever won't magically heal anyone of any anxieties they hold about their own body. Tall and short, wide or narrow, none of these should be accepted only because they’re the standard of beauty. While your heart might be in the right place, your attempt at a compliment still comes from the same messed up worldview as before. Sadly, however, the other side of the conversation is compromised by people who only care about this issue because they’re into fat or whatever, thus the environment becomes much more toxic than people realizing that there are fashion and health industries profiting off of human shame. It becomes a pissing match between what two sides (if you can even call them that) determine what makes someone attractive, and anyone caught in the crossfire either has to side with the "shamers", because it’s normal and healthy, or go the side that at least will find them sexually appealing. Body acceptance should be a pursuit of good health and happiness on one’s personal terms without anyone breathing down your neck about what is attractive or acceptable to anyone else.
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