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YF-23 posted:Then you have all sorts of far-right ideologies not get utterly discredited so they retain popularity, support, and influence, becoming an ally to the west against the communist threat. This is horse poo poo. Plenty of people did genocides and had them justified by nationalism before Germans did. The big world shattering difference was that Germany did it to western Europeans and someone took pictures. Hitler's actions would make him a hero if they were done in America during the manifest destiny days.
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Apr 12, 2014 22:32
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Whelp, so much for my last stand, 7.5 million lovely rebel troops versus 162K of my troops. Only took out 500k rebels before they were grinded into dust. All in one battle, ouch.
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Apr 12, 2014 22:50
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RabidWeasel posted:This whole line of conversation has made me wonder if there's any niche boardgame or other strategy game based around German politics during the Weimar era. It would be very fun and rewarding to try and avoid falling to extremist ideologies and you'd get the huge bonus that winning would basically mean preemptively loving Hitler so hard that he never became anything more than an angry WW1 veteran, millions of Jews and Russians don't die, everyone wins including the Germans It's not a strategy game but Titanic: Adventure out of Time allowed you to stop WW1, the Russian revolution and WW2 depending on how well you did if you're looking for your "everybody lives" fix.
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Apr 12, 2014 22:50
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DStecks posted:I'd say this is more an argument for extending Vicky's timeline to the end of the 20th century, since so many of the core social structures that V2 models were still the status quo. I mean, hell, you could make a modern times scenario for V2 and it wouldn't be that tremendously anachronistic. Wasn't there actually a modern day mod for vicky 2?
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Apr 12, 2014 22:52
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Stairmaster posted:Wasn't there actually a modern day mod for vicky 2? Yup. http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?689900-Modern-Age-Mod-for-Heart-of-Darkness It makes UI changes that add small but important touches, and as I recall the pops in the game are changed from the 1865 start date so Nigeria isn't overwhelmingly animist. Haven't played it in ages though, so I have no idea if it does things like nukes, space exploration, etc.
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Apr 12, 2014 22:56
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And then there is
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Apr 12, 2014 23:00
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Someone I know said the Holocaust should be added simply so the Allies would lose national unity for every month Germany wasn't defeated, and is going as far as calling paradox holocaust deniers. 
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Apr 13, 2014 00:42
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BillBear posted:the Allies would lose national unity for every month Germany wasn't defeated
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Apr 13, 2014 01:07
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KICK BAMA KICK posted:I thought few in the US really knew (or cared about) the full extent of the Holocaust until Allied troops actually came upon the concentration camps? But really the entire line of discussion here is an utter cesspool.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:18
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Strudel Man posted:The former. Tales of the terrible things your enemies are doing are common in war - such accounts as may have gotten out were likely not given much credence for that reason. IIRC, nobody believed the initial reports of the death camps because there had been so much bullshit propaganda about atrocities committed by THE HUN that everybody thought this was just more of the same.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:25
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BillBear posted:Someone I know said the Holocaust should be added simply so the Allies would lose national unity for every month Germany wasn't defeated, and is going as far as calling paradox holocaust deniers. If anything this would be overpowered as hell in favour of Germany, since the Allies (going off the real world WWII) are going to spend a good 6 years at war with Germany, and so nations like Britain might surrender to Germany because hey, you may be fighting to hold whatever land you can against Nazi invasion, but you haven't won the war yet, so we may as well give up if you're going to half rear end WWII so much  .(Even if you changed that to party loyalty dropping, it would still be bizarre to see Churchill lose an election because Britain hadn't defeated Germany yet despite being in no position to do so) KICK BAMA KICK posted:I thought few in the US really knew (or cared about) the full extent of the Holocaust until Allied troops actually came upon the concentration camps? I'm not historical expert, but from what I understand, Americans knew *something* bad was happening, but the most that was well known publicly I think was that they were being used for labor and arrested, but not mass extermination.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:26
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DrProsek posted:Yup. http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?689900-Modern-Age-Mod-for-Heart-of-Darkness Oh wow, it makes the PRC start off uncivilized while North Korea doesn't.
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Apr 13, 2014 02:20
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Stairmaster posted:Oh wow, it makes the PRC start off uncivilized while North Korea doesn't. Well, they don't have Juche for one thing.
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Apr 13, 2014 02:22
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2 questions. 1. Why is everyone at war with everyone in the 1939 start date. 2. Aren't Swastikas banned on the paradox forums? e: Relevant to the current discussion: 
uPen fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 02:24
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uPen posted:2 questions. I've seen a few Darkest Hour mods use them- I think it's against the rules to have them on the forums, but not in the mod itself. The Fatherland mod has a really obvious blacking out of one in its screenshots and there's a model pictures mod that has them on tanks, planes, etc.
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Apr 13, 2014 02:46
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Genocide is kind of pointless but human experimentation is +25% RP. I want to re-allow slavery and then form the EU from Nazi Germany but that would mean actually playing this mod. 
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Apr 13, 2014 02:52
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Kavak posted:I've seen a few Darkest Hour mods use them- I think it's against the rules to have them on the forums, but not in the mod itself. The Fatherland mod has a really obvious blacking out of one in its screenshots and there's a model pictures mod that has them on tanks, planes, etc. Coincidentally, the Fatherland mod also has actual holocaust continuation events for Germany concerning it's occupation of the territory taken from the Soviet Union (and even more events if you get into a war with the Russians again and take territory up to and including the Urals). It's to the game's credit, I think, that the event chain has the option of letting you stop at every single step of the way, so that not only do you have the option of not starting in the first place but that the player also has to make the conscious decision of having a lot of innocent blood on their hands if they continue. Sadly, given the IC, infrastructure, and province coring benefits of the German settlement events afterwards, I get the feeling that most players would follow through with it just for gameplay purposes.
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Apr 13, 2014 03:04
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RZApublican posted:Sadly, given the IC, infrastructure, and province coring benefits of the German settlement events afterwards, I get the feeling that most players would follow through with it just for gameplay purposes. Playing like a true Fascist. 
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Apr 13, 2014 03:07
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JGBeagle posted:Playing like a true Fascist. The game does penalize you for it by making the process take from several months to up to two years and sending the revolt risk through the roof for the provinces in question (the event chain goes by region and typically takes longer the farther east you go, if I remember correctly) until they're "resettled". But, again, the rewards. Also the event text keeps talking about expanding the Autobahn in various directions and poo poo like that so I can picture half the Paradox Forums furiously masturbating every time it pops up.
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Apr 13, 2014 03:17
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I'd be down for a genocide decision as long as every single nation gets it. It's just a generic "Wipe out the [POPNAME] comprising < 50% of the nation" decision that every nation gets no matter what.
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Apr 13, 2014 03:33
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DrSunshine posted:I'd be down for a genocide decision as long as every single nation gets it. It's just a generic "Wipe out the [POPNAME] comprising < 50% of the nation" decision that every nation gets no matter what. Hell yeah I want a exterminate the jews button as the United States. Maybe it could hurt your interest rates but improve morale??
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Apr 13, 2014 03:58
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DrSunshine posted:I'd be down for a genocide decision as long as every single nation gets it. It's just a generic "Wipe out the [POPNAME] comprising < 50% of the nation" decision that every nation gets no matter what. /gsg/ mod had this, I don't know if it's still around though. You have to be one of various autocratic types of government. Best part is the mod also lets you, if you're a Proletarian Dictatorship, enslave the capitalists.
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Apr 13, 2014 04:12
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Lord Binky posted:Hell yeah I want a exterminate the jews button as the United States. Maybe it could hurt your interest rates but improve morale?? Play as the USA and, due to massive immigration, get a row of about 20 or 30 different "Genocide the [POPNAME]" decisions.
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Apr 13, 2014 04:12
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DrSunshine posted:Play as the USA and, due to massive immigration, get a row of about 20 or 30 different "Genocide the [POPNAME]" decisions. "Genocide the Dixie" would be a thing I would be amused by.
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Apr 13, 2014 04:13
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I hope the Paradox devs are taking note of these fantastic ideas.
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Apr 13, 2014 04:28
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They should put the event on every country except Germany. That way, no one can say they're promoting Nazism. 
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Apr 13, 2014 04:48
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Mister Adequate posted:"Genocide the Dixie" would be a thing I would be amused by. "...the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Southerner." - Abraham Lincoln
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Apr 13, 2014 04:49
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JGBeagle posted:They should put the event on every country except Germany. That way, no one can say they're promoting Nazism. Germany gets the event, but only for North German/South German pops. And they can fire it even if they're a majority of their population.
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Apr 13, 2014 05:01
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I would play a gimmick of exterminating all the whites in Germany.
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Apr 13, 2014 05:42
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Any one playing Warlock 2 here? It's pretty fun but I can't even log into the paradox forums cause it keeps spitting a generic error at me. I just wanted to ask if its intended for Mana traps to NOT function like Farms/Craftsman districts, in that you can't make multiple of them. If thats the case, it's going to be pretty hard to raise your mana income.
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Apr 13, 2014 08:20
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I think ignoring the whole Holocaust thing is kind of a cop out, even if its more of a military sim. The way modders try to implement it as some sort of pure mechanical choice between like +2 factories for -10 relations is misguided and doesn't even really properly represent what the whole Holocaust even was. You can't frame something like that as a singular rational choice since the whole thing was the sum of a hell of a lot of decisions. If you can't represent what the Holocaust really was in your sim, then yeah, its best to largely remove the thing from the players hands, but it tied into so much of what the Nazi state was, in both ideology and function, that ignoring it is like ignoring slavery when trying to sim the US Civil War. Its well intentioned, but in its own way its morally bankrupt to ignore it so you can have your fun war sim. I think the best way to go about it is approaching it from a Milgram obedience experiment style event chain. There should be a way for a player to carry out the Holocaust, but not as much from the perspective of "why would Hitler / the Nazis want to do it (answer: because he/they were racist shitheads, big surprise), but more from "Why would the German people be complicit in such a horrible act?" Starting as the Germans, the player would be informed about the Nazi Party's rhetoric catching on with the German populace; they could oppose it (middling short term pain) or roll with it (small long term pain). And from there, more decisions oriented around big loss / small loss decisions crop up; a player could immediately confront the rising problem and bear out pain but eventually stamp out Nazi's racist rhetoric, or they could continue to just roll along with it, resulting in increasingly grim loss/loss choices, eventually resulting in a final choice where it comes to a breaking point, where the player would have to stop things there and suffer a huge fallout or basically go "its not my problem", resulting far later in a hugely mechanically negative Heart of Darkness style event where news of atrocities comes out to the world and whoops, turns out you enabled this by refusing to stop it, you dumb awful bastard. Its still relying on mechanics to drive player decision, but itd hopefully have people avoid doing the whole "yes i will sacrifice orphans for 25% science boost" style playing. The most "mechanically sound" option would be to stop poo poo right off the bat, but since it'd be painful to do when you're trying to do early game stuff, a first time player might try to basically do what a lot of the German people at the time did, which was just go with the less painful short term option. Itd be up there in terms of "moralizing poo poo in games" but really if you're going to have a game literally set during WW2 where you can play as the Germans its kind of off to just try to ignore the most well known atrocity of the 20th century. If a person playing as the Nazis gets irritated about being preached to they're probably a fucker anyways.
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Apr 13, 2014 09:37
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Really, I'm not really sold on the idea of any WW2 games that let you play as the Nazis. Which is most WW2 games, I guess.
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Apr 13, 2014 09:49
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My favorite WWII game remains the Red Front scenario for Civilization II. The absolutely comical amount of units that would spawn for Germany probably do a pretty good job of approximating how it felt to be on the receiving end of Barbarossa.
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Apr 13, 2014 10:02
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Rincewind posted:Really, I'm not really sold on the idea of any WW2 games that let you play as the Nazis. There's really not too many games that can put you in control of a nation in a historical context and not give a more aware player oppertunities to feel super uncomfortable. At least in like, CK2, you can at least take solace in that you're not exactly playing in a sensitive era when you decide to play, say, the Mongol Empire, and you don't really feel like you need to be informed that your army is depopulating scores of innocents during your happy little campaigns. You really couldn't carry out a war without doing terrible poo poo, and you couldn't really play a game in that era without having to dip your toes in inhumane violencing. Trying to make the player feel bad for it is a bit hypocritical since, gently caress, you're the one making a game about it. Nazi Germany, along with Imperial Japan, though, was both uncomfortably recent, went way out of its way to be incredibly awful, and was also in an era where people did in fact see a hell of a lot wrong with the whole "lets murder an entire peoples" idea, even within their nations. I'm reminded of the Cold War sims that existed long, long ago where there were no punches pulled about the horrible poo poo you could do, up to and including calling you a terrible leader if you started Armageddon. Its possible to address terrible things in a game without letting people live out apologia fantasies about said terrible things.
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Apr 13, 2014 10:18
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Tiler Kiwi posted:
Well CK2 may not be the best example as you can order all of the jews expelled from your lands and in some cases it's really probably a good decision since it gets you a fair chunk of free money for a small penalty.
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Apr 13, 2014 10:24
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TalonDemonKing posted:Any one playing Warlock 2 here? It's pretty fun but I can't even log into the paradox forums cause it keeps spitting a generic error at me. IIRC only the undead and elves have a spammable mana generation building. Ed: Also temple cities generate mana based on size, so spam those in tiny corners you won't settle with normal cities if you need more mana. Vodos fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 10:26
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cock hero flux posted:Well CK2 may not be the best example as you can order all of the jews expelled from your lands and in some cases it's really probably a good decision since it gets you a fair chunk of free money for a small penalty. To be fair, the attitude of most historical figures pulling poo poo like that was probably as selfishly cold-blooded as the player is when doing it. Its hard to deal with these things in games without either turning it into some morally meaningless +2 vs -1 choice or completely ignoring it. I don't feel bad when I cut the throat of my nephew for his title but maybe I should.  e: CK2 also had the option to beat your son for being gay, come to think of it. historically accurate but... yeah. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 10:48
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cock hero flux posted:Well CK2 may not be the best example as you can order all of the jews expelled from your lands and in some cases it's really probably a good decision since it gets you a fair chunk of free money for a small penalty. Yeah, I mean if you look at it in the context of the Germanic states in the Crusader era, every Crusade was usually accompanied by extensive Pogroms as a means to raise cash to fund the expeditions to the Holy Land. That is essentially what 'expelling the Jewry' is as a decision, and why I'm not really keen on it even being in the game. I believe some historians have referred to the Pogroms that occurred before the first Crusade got underway as "the beginnings of 'modern' anti-semitism", though I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will probably come along, and point out I'm wrong. El Pollo Blanco fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 10:56
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Tiler Kiwi posted:e: CK2 also had the option to beat your son for being gay, come to think of it. historically accurate but... yeah. Doesn't stop you from sacrificing them for that sweet sweet 25 Piety though.
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Apr 13, 2014 11:26
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RabidWeasel posted:This whole line of conversation has made me wonder if there's any niche boardgame or other strategy game based around German politics during the Weimar era. It would be very fun and rewarding to try and avoid falling to extremist ideologies and you'd get the huge bonus that winning would basically mean preemptively loving Hitler so hard that he never became anything more than an angry WW1 veteran, millions of Jews and Russians don't die, everyone wins including the Germans I had an idea for a game like this once. The game would've been Weimar era Germany and have other countries/eras as DLC/patches or possibly have some more to start off with. You're essentially playing a party rather than a country. If you rule the country you wouldn't have the management options of normal GS where you can order your armies around and such. That'd all be done by the AI, but you could give your armies better chances to win, both in the long and short run by enacting policies and such. Your main objective would be to stay in power or take power and your secondary objective would be to make your country 'good'. The main gameplay element I thought of was policy sliders. There'd be lots of sliders (maybe changing a bit by the era/country) and you'd have triple sliders: Your ideological sliders, which would have drastic consequences when changed, your 'real' sliders which is what you're promising to change in campaigns and such and lastly when you take control of a country you'd get the country sliders, where changing them takes time and resources. If your real sliders are too far away from your ideological sliders you'd get some negative popularity with certain POPs (If POPs are used) and if you don't change your country sliders towards your 'real' sliders you'd get a popularity decrease.
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